Mike's Oud Forums

Help is choosing oud pickup

mjamed - 9-4-2009 at 02:09 PM

Hello everyone

I want to buy a high end pick up for my oud. I think the best K&K
http://www.kksound.com/findpickup_guitar.html
But which one should I go for ?

Thanks in advance

fernandraynaud - 9-4-2009 at 02:26 PM

I've mentioned this before, you can search for it, if you have any skills with electronics, the $2 piezos have worked great on many instruments for me, I'll be trying them on a oud soon.

Preamps if desired are available for $15-25 on this site, there's even a mic + piezo system for $60 instead of $398-$622.

http://www.acousticpreamp.com/servlet/the-4/AGE-MC/Detail

If you can afford to spend $100-$650 on a pickup, you can of course save some time/labor :) but you're out of my league, and you'll have to mount it anyway!

mjamed - 9-4-2009 at 02:32 PM

Thanks for your replay fernandraynaud

i forgot to mention that i am looking for an "internal pickup"

fernandraynaud - 9-4-2009 at 03:12 PM

For what it's worth, my plan is to cork-mount two (or three or four) $2 piezos inside when I have the rose off, under the bridge, use double-sided tape at least initially, find the "sweet spots", wire them series-parallel, try different ways, and carefully (oh, fear!) drill a hole to install a stereo jack where the ribs meet, I've seen it done, can't think of another place, and having wires come out the soundhole doesn't appeal .... unless the oud is so primo that it's better to put up with wires than make any changes on the body.

If you have high impedance inputs on the mixer (or use a couple Direct Input adapters or preamps), you don't need preamps or batteries in the oud. It's impractical having to change batteries, especialy if you have to unglue the rose :) And cutting out a rectangle to mount a preamp is absurd.

With two channels and external preamps you can seriously modify the timbre and "spatial image" at the mixer, like one channel out of phase, etc. It's not just that it's cheaper to "do it yourself". It's better than what many expensive pickups offer.

There are external tube preamps that are cheap ($29-69), and sound very good. There are cheaper ones, but I have used a pair of these ($69 ea):

http://www.music123.com/ART-Tube-MP-Project-Series-Tube-Microphone-...

Their limiters are good, the phase reversal and various controls are great, the only drawback is they use wall-warts for power, and if the voltage drops below 12 volts (e.g. your house power drops below 120 volts), the tubes oddly start to "crackle".

These Behringers are decent, $40, work on phantom power or batteries, but no controls:

http://www.music123.com/Behringer-ULTRA-DI-DI100-Direct-Box-182452-...

Maybe I'm an incurable tinkerer, but if you have to install the pickups anyway, why not try some experiments :)

Sazi - 9-4-2009 at 04:19 PM

Hi mjamed, is there a particular reason you want to install pickups rather than go for a microphone? I ask because a mic will capture the true sound of the oud's face vibrating the air in front of it, more balanced than the sound of a transducer, which by it's very nature can only amplify the sound of the wood itself. ( do you listen to the sound of an oud by sticking your ear up to the soundboard?) Of course I have tried both methods and have used the K&K twin spot pickups, which do a passable job, though for some strange reason on one oud of mine I could not find one place where they actually gave me a good sound, but 2 out of 3 isn't bad. If you really love the sound of your oud as you hear it I would advise to get a decent small-diaphragm cardiod pattern condenser mic, I have used one regularly in a live full band situation with P.A. and foldback, and have had no trouble with feedback, (which you will undoubtably get even with pick-ups unless you have some pretty powerful EQ ) as most small diaphragm cardiod condensers have great rejection of anything off-axis, if you were in doubt you could try to find one with a Hyper-cardioid pattern, as these are even more tightly focused. I have found that even a the cheaper condenser mic's give better results than transducers. Having said that I know some members of this forum have had great results with pickups, and if you do a search here you will find much info and recommendations. Best of luck, S

fernandraynaud - 9-4-2009 at 06:18 PM

I'm with you, Sazi. Pickups are maybe a necessary evil, but a pair of cardioid mics in an X over the soundboard can't be beaten. That same $69 ART preamp I listed has a nice thick tube sound, phase invert, and a decent limiter that really brings out the timbre, even with cheap mics.

Sazi - 9-4-2009 at 11:17 PM

Hmm, that's for sure! I have one of those Art tube pre's, I find the noise level a bit high with any decent amount of boost, and the less said about the +20dB switch the better! I try to keep the pots at around 12 0'clock , although I found the noise level, and indeed the overall level is much better using the balanced XLR connections though, if you have the gear with the balanced inputs to match. I agree they do impart a nice bit of analogue warmth to the sound. One thing I found is that for some reason it always sounds better with the phase inverted, more full and rich, though I'm not really sure why it should!

Reda Aouad - 9-5-2009 at 12:42 AM

Interesting discussion.

I've listened to some recordings using pickups mounted on the soundboard and they were awful (professionally speaking). The noise was too high and the frequency response was very unbalanced. Of course, getting a decent sound quality is hard to achieve.. but condenser mics are the way to go. And in stereo setup.. much better! Plus, I find it ugly to have somethings sticked on the soundboard, or worse, a hole drilled in the ribs joint to insert a pickup mic! No offense to anyone of course.. that's only my opinion.

I would like to ask if anyone has conducted experiments with condenser microphones on the oud. I use the Zoom H4n digital recorder (2 condenser mics in XY stereo configuration, with adjustment of the mics angle between 90 and 120 degrees) and it gives great results, considering that I am recording in my bedroom. I have tried to record at a distance of ~1m directly in front of the oud's sound hole, and it gave me a satisfying result. I would like to do more experiments using different positions of the mics to see if better results can be achieved (I didn't have the time to do it yet). For example, placing the XY mics in front of the guitar's 12th fret (i.e. the neck-body joint) will give great results, and it's a technique many adopt, but I don't know why. Does a similar position with the oud (in front of the neck-body joint) give better results? Or does anyone know about mics positions that work well with the oud?

In a while, I will try to record using different mics positions, and hopefully will post my results on this forum. Meanwhile, I appreciate it if anyone can help me with his experience, if he's done anything in this regards.

Thank you.

MatthewW - 9-5-2009 at 01:29 AM

hi mjamed- the topic of how to amplify the oud has been discussed in previous threads, it definitely is a subject that concerns many of us. Here is a link to a few threads, and you can probably find more info in the FAQs section of the forum. let us know how you get on- regards,MW
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=6495#pid396...

mjamed - 9-5-2009 at 10:26 AM

Thanks for informative replies everyone.

just wanted to clarify that i am only using the pick up in our weekly performances and never in recording. When using standard microphones with live performances we get a lot of feedback from the oud, and it's really hard to limit this feedback.

fernandraynaud - 9-5-2009 at 05:40 PM

Frankly, every configuration has a specific sound, and that's OK, there's no objective "reality". There's no perfect setup, you can make anything useful. An oud can sound interesting so many different ways. If feedback is killing you, then do whatever you must do to overcome it, I wouldn't worry about whether the sound is "perfect".

Sazi - 9-5-2009 at 06:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mjamed  


When using standard microphones with live performances we get a lot of feedback from the oud, and it's really hard to limit this feedback.

Just curious, you don't mention the type of mic, but "standard microphones" in your average sound system, are usually Dynamic mic's, designed for high output amps, drums etc. , not really suitable for oud, - you still need a decent cardiod condenser...

You, or your sound tech., could try this, it's cheap, but more importantly - it works! ( I know because one of our sound guys has one)

Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro DSP 1124P , - and there's a slightly more "up-market" version, suppresses more frequency bands, : Behringer FBQ2496 Feedback Destroyer Pro Feedback Suppressor/Parametric EQ . - There are a couple of others of different brands but they are quite a bit more expensive. Good luck, there's nothing worse than screaming feedback to destroy a carefully crafted atmosphere....

mjamed - 9-7-2009 at 07:11 PM

Sazi,

I use Shure Beta 57a instrument microphone which is supercardioid dynamic microphone.

I did try the feedback destroyer long way back but it didn't work well with my setting i am not sure why.

maybe i need to try condenser microphones i do have one from M audio that i only use for recording.

What type and brand of mic do you use for oud?

Sazi - 9-7-2009 at 09:06 PM

I can recommend the AKG C1000s, the tops can be a bit brittle if you have a really bright oud, but at least you can roll them off. I also recommend the Rode NT5 mics, now superceded by the NT55, and the sE1a, from sE Electronics, all of which are used by many pro's, but any good brand of small diaphragm "pencil" type condenser should be fine. (Leave the large diaphragms for the studio.)

I don't have experience with M-audio mic's, so I can't offer a comparison, but the mic's I've recommended are all good on oud, and not too expensive.

All the best, S

fernandraynaud - 9-7-2009 at 11:17 PM

I'm curious. Can you describe the noise? Mine had intermittent popcorn type noise, I put on higher voltage output wall-warts and it went away, and now it's back on one of them (%$#%*& :mad:). The tubes are cheapies, maybe time to try some other tubes.

The white noise is quite tolerable if I don't try for an impossible amount of gain, what can you expect, at $70 these aren't built with hand-picked components. I mostly use them as DIs, for mics I use my big British analog console or a $40 Behringer 8x2.

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi  
Hmm, that's for sure! I have one of those Art tube pre's, I find the noise level a bit high with any decent amount of boost, and the less said about the +20dB switch the better! I try to keep the pots at around 12 0'clock , although I found the noise level, and indeed the overall level is much better using the balanced XLR connections though, if you have the gear with the balanced inputs to match. I agree they do impart a nice bit of analogue warmth to the sound. One thing I found is that for some reason it always sounds better with the phase inverted, more full and rich, though I'm not really sure why it should!
)

fernandraynaud - 9-7-2009 at 11:20 PM

For stage use, I really don't think it makes any difference, every mic has a good side. I'd go with very cheap small-diaphragm condensers and a little mixer or "box" with very flexible EQ, that's what matters for stage.

Sazi - 9-8-2009 at 02:19 PM

As I've mentioned before on this forum, if you're on a tight budget, (and who isn't when there are so many ouds to collect?):D I have had great results in live situations with an el cheapo chinese Takstar PCM-6100, these get all sorts of mixed reviews, people either love ém or hate ém, but the haters are probably rich! Harmony Central seem to have some good reviews - they go for $29.99, but you can find them for less, they have excellent rejection of anything off-axis, I've never had any feedback problems with them. And I've kept them, and still use them for live work, they do a good job , they're cheap, and I won;t lose too much sleep (or cash) if anyone pockets 'em after a gig.

shareen - 9-8-2009 at 05:56 PM

Someone recommended to me on this forum the Shertler contact pickup. It's a bit pricey but really great. I used it with a Fishman pream/eq through an AER amp and the sound was totally natural. Highly recommended, but don't forget to use it with a pre-amp

jamloun - 8-14-2010 at 05:31 AM


Hi everyone,

I know that there have been many threads and discussions on this forum discussing best ways to amplify the Oud on stage, choice of pick-up, ways of reducing feedback/humming etc. But here's a very specific question:

I am considering getting a Shadow pick-up for my Oud, I need it urgently so I need to make a quick decision...

Has anyone used a Shadow pick-up with the Oud ? any feedback problems? Sound quality? Does it damage the surface of the instrument? Which Shadow pick-up did you use?

The one that I can easily get here is the SH NFX-MAC
http://www.shadow-electronics.com/viewpro.html?id=219&search=1
I know there are other ones by shadow that seem to be specificaly designed for Oud:
-SH 700 NFX
-SH 717 NFX
-SH NFX-OUD
Link:
http://www.shadow-electronics.com/catalog/index.html?ig=128&lan...

Unfortunately, I might not be able to get hold of one of these quickly enough (I need the pick-up for tuesday!), but the SH NFX-MAC is indeed available at a shop near-by...

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated! (Particularly because these pick-ups are expensive...your help might ensure I don't make a big mistake!)

Thanks!