Mike's Oud Forums - Powered by XMB

The amazing sustain of a coated neck

fernandraynaud - 9-26-2009 at 03:01 AM

To prevent strings wearing the fingerboard on my Sukar Model 1, I did what I've done on my fretless basses, namely put on a few coats of Tung Oil. The stuff sets to a pretty hard surface that can be made more or less glossy, and on basses anyway, improves the sustain a little. It's a natural polymer, a bit like the linseed oil used on rifle stocks, but with its own properties. Formsby's "glossy" works well and sets in under 24 hrs.

I was amazed at how much it enhances the sustain on the oud, after I was done with the sanding and installed strings. Here is a very short before and after video with decent sound quality. No effects are used: the sound is just the natural sustain and sympathetics. The Canon camera's mics are used, closer in the second case. Yes, new (Mari) strings were used.

I do like the result. I used a lighter coating on another oud with a more classical "Arabic" sound. It also enhanced that instrument's sustain and personality -- a lot.

It's easy to control the timbre change by making the Tung surface more or less thick and glossy with sandpaper, steel wool, etc. The coating can be touched up as needed, as the strings wear it, and it is (almost completely) removable by re-softening it with liquid Tung Oil and rubbing it off.

The appearance ranges from matte-invisible to glassy. I think it's a bit of a "lucky discovery", hence my enthusiasm.

Has anyone tried any (other?) finishes on the fingerboard? On the inside of the bowl? Comments?

Before & after Tung, Sukar Model 1, Windows Media 9 Video

[file]11381[/file]

Before final sandings
[file]11382[/file]

Final look
[file]11379[/file]

David.B - 9-26-2009 at 10:05 PM

Interesting and complete post !

We can ear a big difference ! I used to put some linseed oil at each time I installed new strings, not so much effects but it made the wood a little bit swell in the cavity under the position of the fingers the most used. I stopped because my oudmaker told me it's better to put none liquid product on the oud and only use a dry cloth to clean it...

By the way, it seems the last Model 1 has a new fingerboard in comparison of mine (2001). Does the fingerboard have a thin coat of varnish like on my Model 8 (2007) when it comes out of the workshop ? Should I sand it if I want to put some Tung oil on it (I guess yes) ?

Thanks for sharing : really didactic :bowdown:

fernandraynaud - 9-27-2009 at 02:04 AM

Well, your oudmaster may be right, but I'm a big believer in reversible madness, which is why I mention how you can remove the coating. It's a modification, it isn't the same thing as cleaning/oiling the wood.

The Sukar fingerboard varnish is apparently shellac, I rubbed it off with an alcohol-soaked rag, then fine sanded the entire length from nut to soundhole, using masking tape to protect the soundboard. Then rubbed in a first Tung layer, and painted on additional coats delicately with a small brush, 4 hours to set between light coats under bright lights, then heavier coats set overnight. Wear gloves. A total of 5 coats, then overnight and final sanding to an even semi-matte. It's hard to explain, but it FEELS so nice and flat to finger on, it's silky, like it sounds, like the texture looks!

[file]11415[/file]

Formsby's Glossy apparently has Japan Dryer in it as even thick coats of it can set overnight. I've seen fat layers of some other Tung Oil take days to fully harden, and it's impossible to find out exactly what's in whose formulation!

Oh, my God! Allah is great!

fernandraynaud - 10-2-2009 at 04:06 AM

I just cannot BELIEVE the sound, power and playability on this Sukar. The strings are starting to play themselves! I've been playing it hard, a lot, and I just cannot believe the resonance, it's like the whole instrument is shaking on every note I play, and the next note starts to play itself before I reach it. Never seen anything like it, for what it's worth. Awesome.

jdowning - 10-2-2009 at 04:45 AM

If smoothness and hardness of the wooden fingerboard surface accounts for such a dramatic increase in the sustain and amplitude of string vibration perhaps an even smoother, harder fingerboard surface like bone, metal or some appropriate synthetic material might be even better? The use of ivory and tortoiseshell veneer as fingerboard materials - although out of the question today - were employed in the past.

fernandraynaud - 10-2-2009 at 07:18 AM

Yes, but there is a limit. On fretless bass and guitar glass and metal has been tried. It sounds and feels "foreign". For a really integral resonance, I'm not sure how best to word this, a sort of impedance match between all the parts is necessary.

Metal and glass will cause a very bright tone, but it doesn't couple back as well into the loop which consists of soundboard, strings, fingerboard, neck, etc. Epoxy and CYA are better than that, but still too hard. When I first tried Tung Oil, I thought ho-hum, nice, and THEN it fully set -- Wow! into a polymer with an acoustic impedance much like hardwood, and the impedance match was close to perfect, all the way around the loop. That's the best way I can comprehend it. A fretless bass is very heavy, the acoustic coupling is not as dominant. On the oud, because of the light construction and great resonance, it's nothing short of mindblowing. Pluck the string, and the vibration keeps on going, nudge it with a little vibrato and it's like pushing a swing in sync, it keeps getting stronger. Slide your finger up the neck and the next note is practically waiting for you. Hard to describe.

I would imagine ivory and tortoiseshell might also be very good, but another big advantage of Tung Oil is that the first layer soaks into the wood, eliminating a discontinuity, making the fingerboard conduct, rather than placing a smooth but distinct surface on top of it. It's important to both soak Tung Oil into the wood, sort of "plasticizing" it, and then add a thick enough series of coats to create a perfectly smooth and hard "petrified wood" flight deck. And it's still the same wood, it feels silky-organic-woody!

The other oud I tried it on got a much thinner coating, its tone was enhanced, but it's too much hassle now to take the strings off and add coats to see how far one can take it. I'm going to be reworking a third one, and that will be a great test as it's not as resonant an oud as the Sukar, and I'm going to try to really pull every bit of tone and sustain out of it.

Alan-TX - 10-2-2009 at 10:48 AM

Since you have a another test in mind I wanted to suggest changing the test parameters a little to better judge how much the change in sound is due to the neck treatment. Certainly there was a change but just how was due to new strings is unknown.

If you can use the same string set for the before and after recordings.

Ideally someone other than you who is unfamilar as to why the test is being done would play the samples. But unless you have another oud player hanging around....

For fun when you post the recordings here do not say which one is the before and which one is the after. Do the reveal a week or so later after a few people post which ones they think are before and after. If you can, just post audio and not the video. Make sure the names of the sound files are non descript <g>

fernandraynaud - 10-2-2009 at 12:49 PM

A double-blind buff, eh? The hard part is wasting a set of strings in the name of science, I don't think putting them on the second time is the same. Of course the strings are the biggest unmeasured factor. I wasn't planning an experiment, I never expected anything quite as dramatic!

There's one more important detail that suggests the new strings are not the main thing that's going on, and that is the way the neck vibrates only when notes are "fretted". The Sukar was always very "live", but after the fingerboard treatment the neck vibrates much more, it's totally part of "the loop", and it wasn't like that. Open strings sound good but don't do that "magic thing" , either, I am sure, as I'm playing it it's different.

I'll see how far I can carry the experiment for doubting Thomases.

Brian Prunka - 10-2-2009 at 02:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

A double-blind buff, eh? The hard part is wasting a set of strings in the name of science, I don't think putting them on the second time is the same. Of course the strings are the biggest unmeasured factor. I wasn't planning an experiment, I never expected anything quite as dramatic!

There's one more important detail that suggests the new strings are not the main thing that's going on, and that is the way the neck vibrates only when notes are "fretted". The Sukar was always very "live", but after the fingerboard treatment the neck vibrates much more, it's totally part of "the loop", and it wasn't like that. Open strings sound good but don't do that "magic thing" , either, I am sure, as I'm playing it it's different.

I'll see how far I can carry the experiment for doubting Thomases.

This is very interesting. I'm curious what our Dr. Oud thinks of this.

Alan-TX - 10-2-2009 at 05:00 PM

No offense was meant so I hope none was taken. I find testing methods interesting and enjoyed this post.

SamirCanada - 10-2-2009 at 08:20 PM

The only treatment I apply to my fingerboards is lemon oil. I usually have the fingerboard sanded down to something to 400 grit and apply some lemon oil.
I think that thick finishes might be nice and even at first but they tend to wear under the wound strings which may not be of any noticeable consequence on a bass but on the oud it definetly can cause some buzzing. Let us know in a few weeks.

That being said, I use a mac so I cant see the video you have posted. However I suspect that any sound change might be more due to the new strings then the new finish on the fingerboard. However, I can see how the feel of the fingerboard could have improved after the application.

David.B - 10-2-2009 at 10:08 PM

Yes Samir I wonder about the same thing : the space between fingerboard and strings is reduced and might make some buzzing, this problem is supposed to be solved by a little sanding before and after...

fernandraynaud, I also wonder if it's not too slippery, especially with the first course in the high register ?

I'm not sure the new strings have a big impact : you always need about 1 week to get a good sound with a new set (and it's colorful and warm only after a few months) !

If I take time to try with my old model 1 I'll give you some feedback too.

fernandraynaud - 10-3-2009 at 02:37 AM

Alan, no offense taken of course.

I'll try to either isolate the sound on that video, or make an audio-only example from previous recordings vs. current state. But I don't have time right now to extract totally scientific A/Bs, sorry I really wasn't set up to document the unexpected.

The new strings and the fact I lowered the action a hair with the butterfly nut are serious candidates for explaining away at least part of the effect of the Tung coating. But I'm pretty darned sure at least a part of it is as described and due to the coating.

There was a shellac layer on the neck when I got the Model 1. I wore through that at the C as expected in about 2 weeks of intense 5 hour a day playing. That, in fact, started buzzing, the shellac was sort of "peeling" around the "trench".

I am prepared to periodically lay on some more Tung oil, you just gently wipe on another layer and it merges with the previous ones and evens out any wear. On my basses it turns out not to be needed often at all. On my 4 string short scale fretless bass there's a wear spot over a (hard) MOP inlay where the Tung layer seems to be needing some help now, it's been over a year! BTW, the way I got into this on the bass was because the timbre on that bass was so different on wood and on those stupid inlays, so I was looking for a way to even it out, as well as protect the rosewood. It turned out to do both very well.

We'll see how it wears on the oud. It's no big deal to add a layer, it should be possible to just loosen the strings, raise them over the fingerboard, wipe and let it set in bright artificial light overnight, then barely wipe it with 600 sandpaper. I don't fully understand everything about this stuff, the re-dissolving of the polymer that has set, the effect of heat, light, etc etc.

The wear behavior is very different from the micro-peeling you get with shellac. I wouldn't expect buzzing until the "trenching" gets serious, and the whole idea is to never let it get that far.

David, no, it's not slippery, you sand it with 600 to a matte finish and it feels silkier than raw wood, but not slippery at all. It's strange stuff, even when glossy it's not slippery. If your old Model 1 has a little wear, it's a chance to make it perfectly flat. You can't fill in deep "trenches", but you can even out little micro-ruts. Also you can build up the edges a little as you brush on layers, then as you sand it level it makes it a bit like an aircraft carrier deck, the flat surface a fraction of a millimeter wider, and that feels really nice. But I've never made it thick enough to measurably reduce the distance to the strings, we're still in the realm of a coating, a 0.025" top cc string is huge compared to the thickness of the "TungStoffe".

Of course I hope somebody else tries it. I'll report as I find out more as well.

Two Months' playing on Tung-coated neck

fernandraynaud - 11-21-2009 at 11:44 PM

OK, this has been a good test, there were some doubters. The sustain is still amazing, and the wear is as expected.

Under note Rast, the original varnish was peeling away within 2 weeks of intense playing and the wood was starting to wear. With the Tung oil, after two months of heavy playing you can't see any wear to the naked eye,

[file]12422[/file]

but if you put the light just so and blow up the picture, you can see slight string "snake marks" as I get on my basses.

[file]12424[/file]

This is so shallow your fingernails even can't detect it, and a wipe of tung oil when changing strings blends it in and strengthens the coating.

I'm very happy with these results and can recommend Tung oil coating in good conscience for an oud's fingerboard, especially on the softer woods. The fingerboard's wood is protected, the feel is very good, and as a bonus the sustain is increased.

David.B - 11-22-2009 at 01:05 AM

Convinced !

Thanks for the photos... I'm still waiting for a quiet moment to go and buy some tung oil and I'll do the same on my mod. 1. If I feel it good I'll do it on my mod.8 next.

Just a little info : Where would you class walnut tree, to me maple is really soft and I guess ebony is the harder ?

Aymara - 11-22-2009 at 03:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

Where would you class walnut tree, to me maple is really soft and I guess ebony is the harder ?

The best (hardest) wood for fingerboards are ebony and rosewood ... used for a loooong time on guitars and basses.

BTW ... my guitar has an ebony fretboard too and I was always satisfied to care for it with good furniture polish, when changing strings.

FLIPAX - 11-22-2009 at 03:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

BTW ... my guitar has an ebony fretboard too and I was always satisfied to care for it with good furniture polish, when changing strings.

Hey Chris!

What is the effect of the polished ebony? coz I never polished my ebony fretboard on my guitar. Only Clean It with Lemon Oil or Lighter fluid.

If It is different fingerboard material like tony in his oud will be okay.

I dont know if many used polish in their Oud's ebony Fingerboard.

Sazi - 11-22-2009 at 03:47 AM

For David.B, and anyone else interested in the properties of various timbers...

http://www.woodbin.com/ref/wood/index.htm

Covers hardness, density, elasticity, use etc.

Aymara - 11-22-2009 at 03:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

Only Clean It with Lemon Oil or Lighter fluid.

The result is very similar to using furniture polish, which cleans and protects the wood and prevents it from drying out.

fernandraynaud - 11-22-2009 at 03:52 AM

On fretted instruments, the string sounds between the fret and the bridge. The fingerboard has almost no effect, and doesn't even significantly wear. You just polish and clean it. On unfretted instruments the string vibrates between the fingerboard, the finger that's pressing it, and the bridge at the other end. The string chews into the wood, until the fingerboard needs resurfacing. Some oud players finger with their nails to give more sustain and a brighter sound. Coating the fingerboard with a hard polymer gives a brighter sound with more sustain, and protects the wood. Tung oil is hard enough (as shown above) but not as brittle-sounding as epoxy or cyanoacrylate. You can use your nails to make the sound brighter, but the fine timbre of the oud would be lost with a metal fingerboard like on a Sarod. A premium ebony fingerboard is probably hard enough to not need coating, but cheaper ebony and walnut and rosewood are softer and a coating avoids having to sand/level the neck.

As to Walnut, it's medium soft, but there's a very rare Lapacho variety that's falsely called a walnut, and very hard. All the common woods have a JANKA hardness rating:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test

Sazi - 11-22-2009 at 03:57 AM

Actually it depends on the walnut...

According to the Janka test...

Walnut, Domestic 1010

Walnut, African, Mansonia 1290

Walnut, Brazilian 3680

as you can see there is quite a difference.

FLIPAX - 11-22-2009 at 04:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Some oud players finger with their nails to give more sustain and a brighter sound.

Hi Tony!

U r Correct last night when I was Playing the Oud I found Out that I played w/ my Figernails.

Good that you have mention coz I will ask this sometime. The result of my experiment about playing with nail fingertips is More Clear note w/ more sustain and its sounds more natural sound for my ears because when u play with your finger skin normally you get a plastic sound or what I meant is it sounded more like plucked but if with the help of nails wowowow

Sound came allive like a soft shimmering sustain.

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

A premium ebony fingerboard is probably hard enough to not need coating, but cheaper ebony and walnut and rosewood are softer and a coating avoids having to sand/level the neck.

Mine I Think Has A good Premium Grade Ebony. So maybe not neccesary to coat.

So How do you know if Your Ebony Needs Sanding?

Do You normally do this when e.g. U have a Buzzing fingerboard?

Gracias,

Philip :airguitar:

Sazi - 11-22-2009 at 04:41 AM

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

FLIPAX - 11-22-2009 at 04:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

WOW Sazi Nice to hear from you Man!

How's Everything?

BTW that quote was also said by Yngwie J Malmsteen.

Awesome Player! w/ a rockstar attitude.

Cheers

Philip :buttrock:

Aymara - 11-22-2009 at 05:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

BTW that quote was also said by Yngwie J Malmsteen.

Buy yourself a tube screamer and combine it with your oud's pickup and be the first who plays heavy metal on oud

David.B - 11-22-2009 at 10:51 AM

Thanks Sazi for the interesting board, and Tony for the scientific one :bowdown:

This is the oud I use :

http://www.oudsukar.com/products/8_ar.htm

The only thing I know is the wood : walnut tree and I can't say which one (to Sazi). I already try to send an e-mail to Ibrahim Sukar for some advices but dead letter... If anybody has better infos about his product, your welcome. It helps to know the machine you use !

DaveH - 11-22-2009 at 11:17 AM

David.B, what Sazi refers to as domestic walnut should be more or less what you have, with a medium level of hardness. The other, very hard species listed are actually not related to true walnut (Juglans spp). However, I think there is a little difference between the hardness of American Black walnut (Juglans nigra) and the Eurasian variety (Juglans regia). If it's sukar it's probably the eurasian variety, though I don't think the difference in hardness is huge.

fernandraynaud - 11-22-2009 at 04:24 PM

You know your fingerboard needs sanding/leveling when the tracks are deep enough so a train pulls up at Rast and people line up with tickets for Neva. A lot of older ouds have trenches like during World War I. No, seriously, it's when the ruts interfere with playing. David's was sanded twice in 8 years? My approach is to never let the ruts develop in the first place, let a coating absorb the damage. For the ebony, play for a while and watch it. If, after a couple months, you see even the kind of "snakeskin trace" appear as in my photograph, I would coat it. The coating adds sustain and brightness, but obviously not if your fingerboard is already very hard. Brazilian Walnut is not really walnut. The ordinary walnuts are all about the same: medium.

Coating the first time with Tung Oil does take the oud out of service for 2-4 days, as you have to put on several coats and the initial coats take like 24+ hours to set hard. You want 4-5+ coats, the first one soaks in like an oil, then you keep painting it on like wall paint and it sets like a urethane. Fortunately the final coats seem to be catalyzed by the first, so they set faster. Then lightly sand to "perfect" aircraft-carrier flatness with a little board. Touch-ups can be just wiped on, when you change strings, or if necessary, sooner. Do not play it while "sticky", it's the strangest substance, nothing seems to dissolve it, and I think if you inject it, it will turn a mammal into an Egyptian mummy that walks in the moonlight.

Correction

DaveH - 11-23-2009 at 02:27 AM

Sorry, this is off topic a bit and probably more detail than anyone needed to know, but it nagged me.

Quick correction to my previous post, which I wrote referring to my "Illustrated encyclopedia of trees of the world" - a fascinating book but evidently not fully comprehensive.

Common names can be confusing, especially with reference to obviously visible traits like large nuts, as anything bearing a similar sized nut can end up with the same name, even though it's unrelated.

It turns out that a "Brazilian Walnut" in the Juglans genus (J. brasiliensis) does exist, contrary to what I wrote, but the Brazilian Walnut referred to on the wikipedia link on JANKA hardness is Ipe, which is unrelated. The Wikipedia page also refers to a Bolivian/Peruvian walnut with a similar hardness to Black Walnut. This is probably the Juglans member J. boliviana.

dighom - 3-14-2010 at 05:45 AM

Interesting - in two ways. I'm also a fretless bass player. :wavey:

I got a turkish oud as a birthday gift from my parents almost 20 years ago. It took a long time to figure out how to tune and play it. (There was no source like the internet in those days)

It's a very cheap instrument I guess, made for tourists probably, but it had a sound, that caught my heart immediately every time I played it.

In lack of money to buy a better one I decided to coat the fretboard a few years ago, because I had a little amount of polyurethane resin left from making my own pickups for the fretless bass.

The board looked like a road laced with chuckholes and some notes really didn't sound well.

So I sanded down the board of the oud as far as possible - not much, because I soon recognized, that the wood isn't originally dark but was dyed or just a very thin piece of veneer.

Then I isolated the borders with some tape and applied 3 or 4 relatively thick coatings of the resin, each one after the preceding was dry.

Stripped of the tape and sanded and polished again. I have to say once more, that there were really deep holes on the board, so the resin did not only coat, but levelled out the whole thing.

Then I bought a set of good Aquila Nylguts...

Man, this was a surprise!
My oud really sounds good know.

A few days ago I visited an oud player from Iraq, who lives nearby, and he said, that my oud is a very good sounding student model, even the construction and the woods aren't of high quality. (Let's say: Simply bad...

)

I can't play very good, but I will upload some soundfiles in the future.

Of course I still wish I could buy a better oud, but even this "not so good" instrument makes my heart wide open, when I play it and lets my soul fly, where no other instrument can get me. It's like a deep meditation, an instant generator of feeling grateful, delighted, peaceful and free.

Thank you all for making this forum possible and for all the helpful information.

Sazi - 3-14-2010 at 06:26 PM

Quote: Originally posted by dighom

...makes my heart wide open, when I play it and lets my soul fly, where no other instrument can get me. It's like a deep meditation, an instant generator of feeling grateful, delighted, peaceful and free.

Well put, I couldn't have put it better myself!

I think this is why we are all here...

All the best with your oud journey.

fernandraynaud - 3-15-2010 at 04:33 AM

So happy for you that you figured out how to make the best of it. I believe that all the emotion you put into it is also important, not clear exactly how it works, but it seems the more you play an oud and the more heart you put into it, the better it sounds.

It doesn't look like a bad oud anyway. Most Middle Eastern ouds are more "earthy" than glitzy Japanese production line guitars. Let's face it, the tools in common use are simple, as you can see in these shots from Egypt.

People I think often attach too much importance to a fine finish. A beautifully finished oud IS surely a beautiful thing, but it's not necessarily going to sound and play better for all that detailing. You could spend a lot more money, and how it sounds and feels might still be a toss of the die. Try to play some other ouds and you might decide you like yours all the more!

Luttgutt - 3-15-2010 at 04:50 AM

I am convinced!!

But, Fernand, do you use pure tung oil or polymerized tung oil?

And can you please give me a link where to by it (on internett)?
p.s. NO one seems to have heard of it in Norway!!!!!!!!!

Thanks a lot

P.S. I totally agree that expensive, well finished ouds NEED NOT be better.. but lets face it, they are better IN GENERAL!
But if you are handy, and KNOW what to do (to the pegs, the fingerboard, the nut choose the right strings) then your oud BECOMES much better!! That is, you can do the finishings yourself.

Have a nice day

fernandraynaud - 3-15-2010 at 02:03 PM

I had originally wasted a lot of time describing some of the very complex internals. It's very confusing, largely because manufacturers promote nonsense like "nourishing the wood". The wood of course is DEAD and needs no "nourishing". And as to "Natural" finishes, nothing is more "Natural" than Hemlock and Death.

Bottom line: Tung Oil is probably best used in a mix like Formby's that includes catalysts and resins, because it sets hard and quickly (overnight). Several layers can be wiped on in a couple of days. The closer you get to pure Tung Oil the longer it takes to set and the more difficult it is to produce a thick protective layer. Jasco has more Tung oil and takes longer (days) to set, you have to add some Japan Drier as a catalyst. I don't know what people do with "pure Tung Oil", be it partly polymerized or not.

http://www.amazon.com/Minwax-30064-Formbys-Tung-Finish/dp/B000BZZ4Z...

fernandraynaud - 3-15-2010 at 11:29 PM

As to well-finished ouds, we all know that a very carefully made and beautifully finished instrument is a marvel. But. If your first instrument requires some work, it's the best way to understand it.

Ouds that are decent student ouds need love and care, and they will reward their owners if they are touched up, and played a lot, with respect. People who look askance at little finishing flaws will not develop the heart to play well anyway.

A perfectly finished oud might or might not be a great-sounding oud that plays well.

Luttgutt - 3-16-2010 at 02:51 AM

Thanks for the reply Fernand!

You are a tresoire to this Forum

One last question:
Should I get High gloss or Low gloss (have no idea what the differance is!?)

P.s. The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive
:cool:

David.B - 3-16-2010 at 09:11 AM

I should try before I write but I'm always running out of time and when I have some I prefer to play... :airguitar:

I guess I'm not the only one in the same case :shrug:

So, a too long sustain do not handicap you when you play Tony ? I mean, when I play and rest on a karar for example, I use to wait until the sound dies before I keep going on the taksim. With a loooooong sustain this way of playing must be out of the question, isn't it ?

fernandraynaud - 3-18-2010 at 01:22 AM

On sustain .... We're not talking about 30 seconds of decay vs. 3 seconds. It's just a noticeably longer sustain, not enough to create new issues.

My Egyptian had a short decay, very typical of Egyptian ouds, I think, and of how people play them. Coating the neck lightly made it systain a little better. I like it not being TOO long, it's an Egyptian, and it sounds good that way.

My Sukar Model 1 started out with a little longer sustain than that, then I changed strings, and it became longer, as Syrians and Iraqis usually sound and are usually played (the floating bridges being a separate issue). The medium wood of the Sukar Model 1 fingerboard limits the sustain. A very hard wood like a high grade ebony would provide more systain. Coating with a medium hard polymer like a Tung Oil finish sounds much like a very hard wood. Coating on that Sukar was applied thicker and sounded more dramatic than on the Egyptian. On a Sukar it sounds "in its place" and I like it a lot.

But you can extend the sustain even by fingering with your fingernails, the way Armenians do. You can control how long notes will ring (to some degree) by what part of the fingertip you "fret" with and how hard you press. It's easier to shorten the sustain on a note now and then than to try to make an instrument sustain when it just doesn't want to. And it's all a long way still from something like the metal fingerboard of a Sarod.

fernandraynaud - 3-18-2010 at 01:32 AM

On the Formby's I used the high gloss. That's what I purchased and it was a fast setting product that was reasonably hard and worked OK. But I hope you understand that we're in very murky waters, right? That what is called "Tung Oil" is a mix and that to really know what brand contains how much resins and how much polyurethane and how much boiled Tung Oil and how much boiled Linseed oil, and how much Japan Drier and so on --- is beyond our capabilities. Maybe the Formby's "low gloss" would have more Tung oil and would set slower but be harder? I don't know. I was to call them but was briefly in hospital. Will try to quiz them tomorrow.

Luttgutt - 3-18-2010 at 03:51 AM

Thanks a lot, Fernand!

Yes, this is a difficult topic for me. And I read all your posts

I'll try the high gloss then. I don't want to take risks. And it is good that it satles faster.

I am NOT expecting miracles (the difference in sustain on your mp3 is not that big anyway).

Anyway, I am interrrested in protecting the board, not the sustain (i think there is enough sustain on the Sukar)

But the paint (shellack?) on Sukar fingerboard gets ripped fast. So I am thinking of wiping it away (alchool. What kind?)
and putting tung oil instead.

I'll try it on my favorit baby (the only Sukar model1 that I still have). If it goes well, Iam thinking of doing it on the rest of my ouds (both eboney and rosewood finger board).

I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks again :bowdown:

and get well!

fernandraynaud - 3-18-2010 at 04:32 PM

Yes that varnish on the fingerboards just gets in the way. Plain grain alcohol (ethanol) will dissolve some types and acetone will dissolve others. Try which one works best on yours. Just be careful not to get it all over, like the back of the neck. Then wipe it off, sand lightly and apply masking tape the way Dighom did too, so you can work comfortably and start with a penetrating layer, let it set maybe overnight, then keep adding layers, with brush or rag, you can speed up setting with very bright light, and in about 3 days you should be up to 5 or so. You'll get a feel for what your particular stuff does. Sand the top layer to an eggshell surface. The fingerboard should be "plasticized", quite a different surface from the rather soft raw wood. Of course it will sustain better, and you can keep adding layers if you want more. Just make sure it's set nice and hard before stringing/playing. Whenever changing strings or doing any maintenance, brush on some more and even out any wear, then lightly sand or steel wool. It seems touch-up layers set faster.

Luttgutt - 3-19-2010 at 06:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Yes that varnish on the fingerboards just gets in the way. Plain grain alcohol (ethanol) will dissolve some types and acetone will dissolve others. Try which one works best on yours. Just be careful not to get it all over, like the back of the neck. Then wipe it off, sand lightly and apply masking tape the way Dighom did too, so you can work comfortably and start with a penetrating layer, let it set maybe overnight, then keep adding layers, with brush or rag, you can speed up setting with very bright light, and in about 3 days you should be up to 5 or so. You'll get a feel for what your particular stuff does. Sand the top layer to an eggshell surface. The fingerboard should be "plasticized", quite a different surface from the rather soft raw wood. Of course it will sustain better, and you can keep adding layers if you want more. Just make sure it's set nice and hard before stringing/playing. Whenever changing strings or doing any maintenance, brush on some more and even out any wear, then lightly sand or steel wool. It seems touch-up layers set faster.

Ah! This is a wanderful compleat description of what to do! THANKS A LOT :bowdown:

fernandraynaud - 3-19-2010 at 11:27 AM

Ok, I just spoke to the labs where they formulate this Formby's "finish". They were reasonably cooperative, but this is a complex area in which I don't know how best to formulate the questions. Every nook you peek into requires learning more! They will be faxing me some materials safety sheets that might reveal some other details. Here is what I learned so far.

The solution is primarily (~ 78%) hydrocarbons (that will evaporate and help the solution penetrate the wood). The rest is an "oil alkyd varnish" consisting mainly of Tung and Soybean oils. Zero polyurethane. That's as far as they were willing to go, as it's a proprietary formula. I asked if the finish sets primarily by polymerization or by evaporation, and he said definitely polymerization. None of this is at odds with what I knew or expected. After the hydrocarbons evaporate, the deposited oil blend continues to polymerize (harden).

As Wikipedia says: Typically, modern commercially produced varnishes employ some form of alkyd for producing a protective film. Alkyds are chemically modified vegetable oils ....

If you look up Alkyd and then Polyester you find that these can be made with Tung oil, it is not that they are foreign and evil synthetics, it's a complex chemistry where all these things meet.

My results with Formby's on fingerboards, whatever it consists of, were decent, and probably should work for you too. If you try another "polymerized tung oil" it too must be thinned with hydrocarbons and optimized with additives. Those that contain the most Tung oil seem to take the longest time to set, and a thick film will tend to stay gummy/soft. So if you add all of this up, and try to make, on your own, a better "finish" that WILL easily give you a hard protective film, you probably end up making something much like Formby's. I believe that the parading, by some manufacturers, of verbiage like "pure and natural Tung Oil" is just a marketing ploy, because you can't finish wood with pure Tung Oil even if you tried. Alles klaar, herr kommissar?

Luttgutt - 3-19-2010 at 02:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Alles klaar, herr kommissar?

Wow! If you were taking a shot at norwegian, you aimed good enough

Not bad Herr Fernand :applause:

I don't think I am going to be making my own Fomby mix! I am too bad at these things. I am just trying to buy the thing.

But I cannot find anybody on the nett the sends the dam thng outside the states!!!!!!!!! I find that very strange.
And can't find it in Nowray (NO ONE HAVE HEARD OF IT!!)

HELP

David.B - 3-20-2010 at 12:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

On sustain .... We're not talking about 30 seconds of decay vs. 3 seconds. It's just a noticeably longer sustain, not enough to create new issues.

Thanks for your answer Tony, I had in my mind your "Consolation in Nihawand" with very long pauses between notes. What I play is a mix between long pauses and quick phrases, sometimes there's a conflict between notes because of the sympathetic phenomena, but as you wrote I compensate without thinking with my fingers on the fingerboard.

David.B - 3-20-2010 at 12:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt

Hi Luttgutt,
I read somewhere you go to Paris, if it's the case check out these addresses :

http://www.laverdure.fr/_nous-contacter.php

http://www.hmb-bda.fr/

I have these addresses for a while now, since the beginning of this thread, and I'm not motivate enough to take time to go there... We could go together ?!

Aymara - 3-20-2010 at 02:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Try which one works best on yours.

I think, it's agood idea to experiment first with separate pieces of wood, before touching the oud itself.

Luttgutt - 3-20-2010 at 08:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

Thanks! and good idea.
I'll check when I have time during the day.
Are those shops somewhere in the center?
what is the name of the polymerized tung oil in frensh?
I checked the adresses. I found "huile de lin" etc. :-)

David.B - 3-21-2010 at 12:44 AM

Yes both are situated in the 12e arrondissement.

"polymerized tung oil" = huile de Tung polymérisée

I should give a call first, it's easier for me... I'll give you some feedback this week.

Yes Chris, I'm going to experiment first and my Sukar mod. 1 has nothing to loose (the fingerboard is too used and this model is too cheap for a brand new one...).

Aymara - 3-21-2010 at 12:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

... and this model is too cheap for a brand new one...

I think it's not the price that counts, but how much you like the oud ... be it because of it's sound or because it was your first oud?

If you like it enough, it's definitly worth it to let a luthier exchange the fingerboard, don't you think so?

David.B - 3-21-2010 at 02:54 AM

Yes Chris, it sounds good as a student oud, too many weaknesses. It's not homogeneous and I did many experiments on it. But I keep it because this is my first oud.

I prefer the model 8 which is more serious and I follow my luthier's advices for this one. If I were richer I would have 3 ouds, the first one for the <3, the second one for experiments and the last one for the best sound !

PS
Polymerized line seed oil should do the same job, this is the polymerization process which import, isn't it ?

fernandraynaud - 3-21-2010 at 07:30 AM

David, probably, but I'm not sure. I'm starting to think that to fully understand this topic is deliberately and very Very effectively impeded by the manufacturers.

All that really matters is to get a resilient and rather-hard coating that is easy to apply and touch up. That sentence holds more difficult desiderata than meets the eye. Brittle is bad, as is soft-film like the varnishes in common use on cheap fingerboards. I had good luck with a Tung Oil product and maybe over-generalized, before I knew just how wide a range of preparations is sold under that name. Boiled linseed oil is cheap and used ok on rifle stocks but apparently tung + soy is better. The fastest setting mixtures are not as durable, I finally got a good photo I will post, but it's not a catastrophe, just touch it up sooner.

Luttgutt - 3-21-2010 at 11:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Yes that varnish on the fingerboards just gets in the way. Plain grain alcohol (ethanol) will dissolve some types and acetone will dissolve others.

What about vaseline intensive care "Mild nail polish remover- WITHOUT aceton"?
I bought and found out that it is without aceton. :shrug:

Does that work?

Thanks

DavidB, I agree with Aymara and Fernand about oud model1.

I have some fancy custom made Sukar ouds that are excellent (Not the same as what you find on Palmyrami, for example). Still, my model1 (my oldest Sukar from 2003, and my "baby"

) is still "fighing back" :-)
And I am keeping it inspite of the fact that I don't play arab size oud anymore!! I take it out of its case every once in a while, and it keeps on surprizing me!

But that is said, ouds are individuals!
Now I have 6 Sukar and 4 Nahats and they are all SOOO different!

Enjoy the playing :airguitar:

fernandraynaud - 3-21-2010 at 11:54 PM

I have no idea what these solvents contain. I would imagine they may leave residues you don't want. Maybe ask the pharmacist for a little bottle of each: 90% ethanol and acetone.

Here is a photo of the treated neck on my Sukar where you can barely see the "serpent-skin" wear on the mostly Jasco's finish, and on my Egyptian, where the wear on the Formby's finish is "whitening". This is after about six months of daily playing on both. It looks on the photo like the "whitening" is wearing down into the wood but that is an illusion, the whitish wear is only more visible. Both can use a touch up by now, but neither is anything like the original neck-varnish (that was peeling and exposing raw wood after only a month). You can guess there is likely a plastic resin in the Formby's that makes it more "crunchy", and the slower-setting Jasco + Japan Drier mixture is probably more flexible and wears down more slowly. Hard to say if either is really better.

The best fingerboard coating might well be Cyanoacrylate, as long as it's not turning out too hard, but the process intimidates me. I cannot find the illustrations, but here's the article text:
http://www.bassplayer.com/article.aspx?id=20674

Luttgutt - 3-22-2010 at 02:55 AM

Again, Thanks :bowdown:

I am exited about this thing! I am going to do
1-"tung oil" the finger board
2- change the existing BAD NUT by a synthetic plastic (was recommended by a Luthier I know (guitar). p.s. I have already taking out the old nut. It is horrable the Sukar glues the nut in, like stone!!
3- work on the bridge (I know waht to do now

And all this on my MOST fansy, most expensive Sukar oud.
Whish me luch

David.B - 3-22-2010 at 09:39 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Boiled linseed oil is cheap and used ok on rifle stocks but apparently tung + soy is better.

Hi Tony,

http://www.hmb-bda.fr/liste-produits.php

"HUILE DE LIN : ordinaire, polymérisée, décolorée"

This is what I found, but I'll ask for more details, by phone, tomorrow...

David.B - 3-22-2010 at 09:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt

Now I have 6 Sukar and 4 Nahats and they are all SOOO different!

Hi Luttgutt, I know it's out of the subject but would you like to show us the 6 Sukar :

http://www.oudsukar.com/en/products_oud_en.php

And tell us about the different feelings ?

fernandraynaud - 3-23-2010 at 01:32 AM

David, it seems like the outfit you found has many different "vernis". Maybe see if they know anything about the subject and ask if they have something they recommend for the specific purpose of hardening and "plastifying" a wood, with the ability to touch it up as it wears. The tung oil formulas I tried met those requirements, but there may be something even better.

Luttgutt - 3-23-2010 at 07:37 AM

Ok, my last update...

I am almost done with the new nut (synthetic bone. Any experiance with that matirieal?).

But i cut my finger, so i have to wait to finish it

I can't find ethanol in this city!!! I tried white sprit. Didn't do a thing. So -I lightly sanded down the shellack. Hope that was stupied. But i am getting unpasient!

I removed the bridge (it went nicely).

Now i am thinking: is it possible to reinforce the bridge area from under the face of the oud, with a 2mm thick peace of spruce that is exactly the shape of the bridge (by glueing it on the inside)?
I have seen that somewhere done by a guitar maker, reparing a guitar. i think it was a link from Dr.oud.

Thanks

fernandraynaud - 4-6-2010 at 12:38 AM

But if you just glue the bridge "twin" underneath, it won't do a lot unless you drive screws or dowels through the soundboard, and that surely has been thought of (and rejected for a reason)?

Were you sanding the varnish off the fingerboard or shellac off the soundboard?

Be patient. I am coating a neck that started out rather thickly varnished. I used alcohol and naphta and sanding and it still didn't completely come off. It's harder to bond anything to it, the oil mix cannot soak in well, and it hardens more slowly. The first coats with oil mixes can be tricky.

I was researching some coatings used for billiard cues, but the maker just answered it won't work well for us. But I also found fume-less cyanoacrylates, so there is probably a cyanoacryl-fingerboard in my future. I don't believe in segregating "organic" vs "synthetic" finishes, everything is bio-chemistry. If it bonds and polishes easily into a tough coating that can be touched up, it doesn't matter whether it came off a tree last year as seed oil or millions of years ago pressed into crude oil. After this neck, my plan is to do some tests with cyanoacrylate on wood scraps.

Here is what some people buff epoxy and cyanoacrylate fingerboards to, if they like the bright sound and long sustain. Wow! A semi-matte surface is of course much easier to do and more appropriate for the oud.

fernandraynaud - 4-11-2010 at 06:58 PM

Oh, David and Luttgutt, if you have not seen this, search for Tru-Oil in the forum and google. This is the linseed oil mix that is used on rifle stocks, much like a Tung Oil mix, though apparently Tung oil is tougher.

There is also a wide discussion of finishes/coatings here:

http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/FinishOverview.htm

They don't seem to distinguish sufficiently between finishes for various parts of an instrument.

The fretless fingerboard needs a tough film that resists strings' abrasion and is easily touched up when it wears. Epoxies and Cyanoacrylate allow thick glassy fingerboard coatings to be created by smearing on and buffing, polymerizing oils make a thinner and more flexible film that is easily applied and refreshed with a rag.

The fretted fingerboard just needs a cosmetic touch like lemon oil.

The body needs a varnish/lacquer that resists chipping and scratching, preferably thick and able to flex a little. A guitar body and an oud bowl have similar needs.

The soundboard needs only the thinnest of shellacs to keep the wood clean and pretty, but without flexibility so as not to dampen the sound. Natural unfinished wood sounds good but is hard to keep clean. A thick polyurethane varnish is not a good idea, but the more brittle the less harmful, while an oil, which at first glance seems harmless, if you think about it, is obviously a way to rubberize and deaden a soundboard. I have heard of harpsichord soundboards that took years to recover from a well-meaning oiling.

David.B - 4-12-2010 at 08:33 AM

Thanks Tony,

I'm going to read it carefully tomorrow (very sick today...).

fernandraynaud - 4-12-2010 at 06:54 PM

I love this one, you can see how multiple coats of Boiled Linseed Oil (Tru-Oil) looks on a rifle stock.

I especially like how it takes 2 minutes (!) for the man to explain that hanging the piece by a wire means it doesn't have to lean on anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvryJL9okd8

And listen to how apparently saying "Tru-Oil" repeatedly makes him feel good. Especially with a Southern American accent. And that wood is lookin' real nassss ! Looks like everybody like to say "TRU-OIL":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtuJ495R9qU

David.B - 4-13-2010 at 08:21 AM

Thanks for the videos,

I must go to the shops above this WE... This process interests me but I wonder why there's not so much feedback here from oudmakers, luthiers ?

fernandraynaud - 4-13-2010 at 08:59 PM

I guess it's not the traditional approach, so it's probably wrong. But traditionalists often use a varnish on the fingerboard.

This is just using a better varnish, and a way to make a softer wood like walnut behave more like a hard to get wood like ebony.

In time ebony may disappear. We can't use eagle feathers any longer, either.

Ali - 4-28-2010 at 09:32 AM

Hi guys
I just read every post in this topic and thank to everyone of you its great. and I got
so interested to do tune oil the finger board of my Sukar Oud but I have never done woodwork
and I am afraid I damage it!
I was wondering how much thickness should I sand off of the fingerboard?
And will the tuning oil add up the thickness?
and when I am doing the final sanding on dryed tune oiled finger board as final sanding,
how critical is that ? Is it possible that my sanding making little uneven surface and create
problem?
Is there a way to have a simple step by step proccess for unexperiencd people like me?
I am playing oud for long time but I know nothing about wood work.
Thanks
Ali

fernandraynaud - 4-28-2010 at 02:08 PM

Dear Ali

I had posted several times with instructions and photos. Do a search for "tung".

In other countries you may have to hunt like Luttgut did, but If you are in the US, the simplest to use is Formby's glossy Tung Oil Finish. There's also Tru-oil that is widely used on rifles. Luttgutt is happy with the Danish Oil he found. These are all polymerizing oil based wipe-on finishes that set over a couple of days into a hard surface that strings only slowly wear into, that you can easily touch up when you see wear, and that add zing and sustain. All we are doing is "plastifying" a softer wood to act like a high quality hard ebony (that is becoming very expensive and whose use is maybe ecologically unwise).

Clean the fingerboard with alcohol and a rag, get all the old varnish off and sand lightly with a 600 sandpaper. You try to get to clean wood so the new finish can soak into the wood. But don't dig deeply chasing virgin wood, you may never get there and could go too far; a rough surface free of old varnish is good enough.

You will not be changing the height because these are micro-layers. The sanding also should be very very light. But if you are very nervous don't do it, try to find someone with woodworking experience to help.

Mask off the edges and the soundboard with that blue painter's masking tape, DO NOT get the Oil Finish on the other parts of the oud, only the fingerboard. The bowl should be left as it is varnished, the soundboard either stays raw, or egg-whited, or French-polished with shellac in alcohol.

You just wipe on a layer, let it set until not soft or sticky, sand very lightly, wipe on a layer, sand again, keep doing this for several days. Make the last layer eggshelly with finer sandpaper. If its too thick and stays soft, sand it deeper and it will harden. It's pretty intuitive. Just give it time, don't do this on your only oud.

If you are unhappy with how it's turning out, put more of the stuff on, thickly, let it all get soft, and scrub it all off.

Aymara - 4-28-2010 at 11:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

..., try to find someone with woodworking experience to help.

Maybe ask a guitar or violin luthier, what it would cost, if he does it. A question doesn't cost you money

Luttgutt - 4-29-2010 at 02:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Dear Ali

Luttgutt is happy with the Danish Oil he found.

Definetly! I followed fernandraynaud's procedure, and I am very happy with the result. Better then expected!

Yes, there was no way getting Formby's oil in Norway. But I found out (after a long strugle) that Danish oil is quit similar.

Some aftermath thoughts:

1- It looks and feels good!

2- It DID add some hight (litle less then 1mm).
maybe I did not sand enough. But I am very happy with it this way. Note that I was going to change the nut anyway. So more hight was no problem.

3- It changed the timber on my oud. The oud sounds more "turkish" now.
I did not mind it since I don't have any turkish oud. So I welcome the new sound.
p.s. the oud I worked on is 58,5 cm arabic (sukar) oud. Maybe that is why I got the turkish timber!?

4- the oud stil smells bad (done for around 10 days now). But getting better now. So I hope the smell would go away eventually.

p.s. Thanks a lot Tony for all your help :bowdown:

fernandraynaud - 4-29-2010 at 03:45 AM

Hey, Geko, I'm glad I'm not hallucinating, and I'm not the only one who likes this inexpensive little upgrade

The timbre can be controlled because it's a matter of how smooth the surface is. If you make it very hard, smooth and glossy, it picks up more high frequencies and notes last (sustain) longer. It's a bit like fingering the left hand Armenian-style with your fingernails. If you want to tone it down, just sand it more, rougher.

Luttgutt - 4-29-2010 at 04:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

I'm not the only one who likes this inexpensive little upgrade

Well actually, the Danish oil alone cost me 35$

But I am starting to appriciate using my hands on my ouds

And now it looks even prettier then when it was new!

fernandraynaud - 4-29-2010 at 05:54 AM

You have Oil and spirit left over. The next project is just around the corner. It's called "amortizing" I think.

It's endless. My Adani Oud (my "Baby") is prettier and sounds better than ever in its life. I was going to make holes in it for pickups, and now I can't because it sounds great and I even love its looks now. If it said Mohamed Fadel inside, even Alfaraby would love it. Well, I know it sounds good and plays very nicely regardless of what it says inside. So I guess I need another to make holes in.

p.s. you overpaid on the Danish Oil. If only we could operate a cooperative and pass the tools and materials back and forth among comrades! (how big a drum of Danish Oil did you get?)

Ali - 4-29-2010 at 09:56 AM

Fernand
Thank you very much for nice and simple explanation ,I got it and I just need to decide
which one of my Ouds I start doing it to.Thank you for explaining it even again.

Luttgutt
Thank you for sharing your experience in such cmplette way. its very helpfull .

Regards

alfaraby - 4-29-2010 at 02:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

If it said Mohamed Fadel inside, even Alfaraby would love it.

Hahahah ! Not even if Abdo Nahat himself, not only his name, is inside ...

Anyhow, I've been looking for this kind of oil since this was first posted. I was planning to use it on an "Oud Adany" just like Fernand had done, but never found any around here, not even Danish.
I might have to import it myself right from China, unless you have other suggestions !!

Yours
Alfaraby

Luttgutt - 4-30-2010 at 05:15 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ali

Luttgutt
Thank you for sharing your experience in such cmplette way. its very helpfull .

Regards

My pleasur Ali

And good luck

fernandraynaud - 4-30-2010 at 05:56 AM

Alfaraby, where are you located? Can you get "Tru-Oil"? that's very similar. They export world-wide, and they make other useful stuff, like wood sealer. I have not tried it but it's being widely used for whole guitar bodies, and it's interesting to read comments like this:

I've used blo, tung oil, poly, and tru oil, and compared to the others tru oil gives by far the best looking finish. It looks just like blo except it dosen't take a week to dry. I really like the finish blo was giving, but after the 1st coat it took forever to dry, "Mississippi humidity" Tru oil is dry to the touch in a bout 4-6hours from what i've seen.

I just found this, it even has sandpaper etc in a kit :cool:

It hadn't occurred to me, but darkening the wood with a walnut stain like this might be a nice touch on some fingerboards.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001AT3AJ8/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?p...

It makes me think of the Speed Caravan logo

alfaraby - 4-30-2010 at 10:54 AM

I'm located in the middle of nowhere in the Middle East, some tiny torn apart country called the Holy Land !
So what dou you suggest ? blo, tru or tung ? What's better for the sustain matter ?
I found Tung @ ebay but they turned to be domestic only & "don't ship outside the US " !!!
Please put me a link for what you think is better for sustain.
I shall answer your last mail Fernand, but didn't get to it yet .

Thanks again

Alfaraby

fernandraynaud - 4-30-2010 at 12:24 PM

For purposes of shipping you are in Israel? Do you want a link that will ship to Israel?

The manufacturers don't like to tell us what they put in their stuff. What most call Tung Oil only contains some Tung Oil. Tung Oil sounds good but on reality is gard to use because it sets very slowly, and keeps a lot of flexibility. So a mix with synthetics works better. But it's confusing. We end up using different blends. Nobody can be sure which works best.

alfaraby - 4-30-2010 at 01:51 PM

Palestine or Israel would be good enough !
So what to order ? Tung after-all ?
Thanks for asking any way .

yours
Alfaraby

fernandraynaud - 4-30-2010 at 11:09 PM

No, not pure Tung Oil. I have not tried it yet, but the Tru-Oil actually looks like it might work very well and dry fast. Now that I've worked with several of these "oils" I believe that all of them are (similar) mixes of Tung Oil, linseed oil and synthetics, and that pure Tung Oil would be THE WORST and THE hardest to use. Birchwood Casey also offers a sealer to start with and help create a super-smooth surface.

http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/Birchwood-Casey-TRU-OIL-Wood-Stock-Refinish...

Since it's listed on this Belgian site, you should be able to find it for shipment to you. Otherwise look for Formby's Tung Oil Finish - Glossy works OK, the low gloss is probably fine too. It comes from many sources, under the Minwax brand too, you should be able to have it shipped, like:

http://www.amazon.com/Minwax-30063-Formbys-Tung-Finish/dp/B000RMS0J...

Best of success.

alfaraby - 5-1-2010 at 01:59 PM

Thanks Fernand
I tried over again, & here what they've said :

"Tru-Oil Gun Stock Finish, is a hazardous product and cannot be shipped outside the 48 states "

So ? What Do you suggest ? To give up ?

Yours
Alfaraby

fernandraynaud - 5-1-2010 at 03:16 PM

Never give up. There was a u.k. Link as i recall, buy it from a european site, not a us one. Because of that word in the name some idiot bureaucrat or software classified it as dangerous, but its a wood working finish, just find a vendor in europe or buy a different brand, or a plain boiled linseed oil wood finish. Or anything like a Tung Oil Finish, Chinese Oil Varnish, etc. Ask DavidB i think he found a place in Paris with lots of varnishes. I cannot hunt it down for you from here because we will land on different web addresses.

David.B - 7-8-2010 at 06:08 AM

I've been to http://www.hmb-bda.fr/, and they proposed to me "Standolie, huile de lin" (I didn't buy).

I bought at http://www.laverdure.fr/_nous-contacter.php 1 liter of "Huile de lin cuite" so I think this the plain boiled linseed oil you're talking about.

What I bought is numbered 181510 : http://www.laverdure.fr/HUILES-ET-LIANTS/huiles/f15/sf114

I did not try yet, so I can't say about this oil until now.

fernandraynaud - 7-8-2010 at 10:41 AM

I think item 180310 is real Tung oil.

David.B - 7-8-2010 at 11:40 PM

Yes, I think so... But the seller didn't tell me anything about it !

fernandraynaud - 7-9-2010 at 04:06 AM

I'm not sure which is better. It is said that pure Tung oil takes forever to set, and tends to remain softish. So it's seldom used as pure Tung oil. We want something that will set quite hard. Linseed oil might work better for you. There's also that Standolie mix of Tung and Linseed oils.

I personally would lean towards that Tru-Oil mixture that is SO popular for rifle stocks. But did you explain what you're doing and see what they suggested? An analogous wood finish situation might be billiard cues, bowling pins, rifle stocks (la crosse des fusils de chasse).

David.B - 7-9-2010 at 08:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

I personally would lean towards that Tru-Oil mixture that is SO popular for rifle stocks. But did you explain what you're doing and see what they suggested? An analogous wood finish situation might be billiard cues, bowling pins, rifle stocks (la crosse des fusils de chasse).

Yes, I came to the shop with a paper copy of this thread and I first show these pics :

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/files.php?pid=70673&aid=14...

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/files.php?pid=64891&aid=11...

At the end of a (long) conversation I asked about rifle manufacturers. He told me the Manufacture d'armes de Saint-Étienne called him once (without anymore comments) and I finished with this sentence : "USA must sell more guns than France..."

Laverdure seems to be an institution (the outside and inside is old, more than a century !). If I can't find at this address I won't be able to find anywhere else in France. By chance the seller knows his products even if he turns everything into subtle humor. I had to hang on to catch brand new stuffs for a neophyte like me !

SamirCanada - 7-19-2010 at 04:40 PM

Hi everyone,
I have quick question for you scientists out there.

in the case of a fingerboard that is inlaid with mother of pearl. Of course the finish will be absorbed into the wood part but what about the m.o.p. inlays? will it eventually dry over it?

I like the superglue treatment but I cant seem to see the pictorial step by step when I open the file.

fernandraynaud - 7-20-2010 at 12:47 PM

I have inlays on a fretless bass fingerboard, and it's a headache. The ivory or MOP or abalone shell or plastic is harder and less permeable. On wood the coating forms in continuity with soaked wood, it's strong. On the inlays it's a more fragile skin. It wears down, especially at the boundaries.

But it's not a tragedy. You normally inspect and refresh a "tung oil finish" coating as needed, like when you change strings. Wipe some more on if there's wear. Unlike the first layers, it sets pretty fast. It bonds by softening the previous coat and polymerizes together much quicker. On the hard inlays it's not as perfect, but it's not as important, as there is less tendency to wear.

Cyanoacrylate seems excellent, though i haven't tried it. The only disadvantage seems to be that it's not as easily reversed. With "wiping oil varnishes" you can slop more on until it all goes soft, then wipe/scrape it all off, should you want to, heaven knows why.

I know, I can't find the cyanoacrylate coating pictures either; unfortunately they disappeared. But i saw them before, and it's not very complicated. Mask the edges carefully with tape. Use a gel type? Some people spread it with a playing card, then apply the accelerator, then add more coats? sand then steel wool until you reach the desired gloss, from rough eggshell to glass-smooth. The smoother the surface, the greater the sustain and the more "Turkish-like" the timbre. Raise the action and roughen the coating for a more Arabic sound. With inlays the boundaries will be more fragile, so a thicker coating would be a good idea.

On the best woods, like ebony, hard rosewood and darkest walnut ("of lions"?), a coating may or may not be necessary. I'm debating it on a couple of Sukars.

fernandraynaud - 8-24-2010 at 03:40 AM

OK, it's been over a year since I got my Model 1 Sukar, and almost a year since I coated the neck. I've played it every day, usually several hours a day. The strings are wearing out. As to the Tung Oil Finish coating applied to reduce fingerboard wear, the verdict is in. The wear on the rather soft wood fingerboard is too slight to even photograph. I think David B. did two fingerboard levelings in 5 years, or was it 3? A little shadowing shows up around Rast etc, but if you rub/clean it, it disappears. On a fretless bass I coated well over a year ago, the wear is a little more visible, especially on the inlays, but the wood is intact.

For cosmetic reasons, and to enhance the sustain on this particular oud, I'm going to apply a fresh layer when I change the strings. But if anyone had any doubts about the effectiveness of such a coating, you need not doubt: it works, and if finished glossy, it nicely increases the sustain that you can get out of the oud. Where the more percussive type timbre is desired, it's simple to finish the coating less smooth/shiny.

To review ... and for our new members

The particular prep that was used on this neck was Formby's Tung Oil Finish, High Gloss, with a little Japan Drier added. I have reason to believe that Tru Oil (which is a similar blend containing more boiled linseed oil) sets faster, can be applied thicker, and would probably be just as durable.

A generic name for such mixes is "wiping oil-based varnish", or "drying-oil based finish". They contain polymerizing ("drying") oils and petrochemical resins, e.g. alkyds, polyurethane, plus solvents, yet are often labeled as e.g. "Tung Oil", "Danish Oil", etc. A pure drying oil, e.g. Tung or Boiled Linseed Oil, also turns to a hard coating, yet sets so slowly as to be impractical. Petrochemical varnishes that contain no oils, e.g. polyurethane, seem to be less resistant to wear. Cyanoacrylate (super-glue) has a very good reputation as a fingerboard coating on fretless basses, as does Epoxy. But these set so glassy-hard that they are said to significantly alter the timbre (it might be interesting doing one oud that way! Armenians and many Turks fret with their fingernails for better sustain!). So, in the end, Wiping Oil-Based varnishes seem to be a good compromise.