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Would you order an oud in winter?

Aymara - 10-14-2009 at 05:42 AM

Hi,

I'm Chris, a 12-string guitarist from Germany, who want's to learn oud.

As it seems my only option is to order an oud from an arabic luthier ... no chance in germany.

But the question is, wouldn't it be a bad idea to order an oud with the temperatures now falling? Wouldn't the oud get "damaged" during transport by extreme temperature differences?

Should I better wait half a year?

Jonathan - 10-14-2009 at 05:55 AM

There's a little bit of an increased risk with ordering an oud in the winter, but some simple precautions can minimize these risks.
Always have the oud shipped in a case. Upon receiving the oud, leave it in the case, and let it gradually come to room temperature. If there is a great difference in temperature, leave it in the case (don't open it at all) for a day or so.
I understand your concern, and agree that it is not the ideal time to order an oud, but I will say I have done this a few times without any problems.

sabbassi - 10-14-2009 at 06:00 AM

Aymara
I'm building 5 ouds this winter and I live in Holland, if you are insterested you can check the build process. this are pro ouds.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=9760

Marcus - 10-14-2009 at 07:43 AM

Hi Chris :wavey:

Welcome to the forums. Great, another oudie in germany :airguitar:

Depense in how much money you`ll spend,you can get pro-ouds and usable bedinner-ones "at home".

Here are the link`s:

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/CEM-MusicCenter-CEM-MC :shrug:

(sorry for the ebay-link, `could find no homepage)

http://www.lutes-strings.de/ :applause:

Good luck!!
Marcus

Btw:where in g are you located?

Aymara - 10-14-2009 at 10:28 AM

Hi again,

thanks for the nice welcome.

Quote: Originally posted by Jonathan

Always have the oud shipped in a case.

I was planning to order it together with a hardcase, but that isn't a good protection against temperature problems.

To leave it in the case so that it can get to room temperature slowly is a good tip, but we don't know the conditions while it's on transport. The case can stand in the cold for several hours and later several hours in a much warmer environment like a truck for example. I hope we get a mild winter and not such a extremely cold one as last year.

Quote:

... I have done this a few times without any problems.

That's good to know ... that helps calming down

Quote: Originally posted by sabbassi

I'm building 5 ouds this winter and I live in Holland ...

Hello european neighbour :wavey:

Very interesting, but I fear an europian luthier might be too expensive for my budget. It would be nice to hear, where you're located in the Netherlands and what's your price range ... maybe by U2U.

Nice to see your progress here on the forums! Very interesting.

Quote: Originally posted by Marcus

Here are the link`s ...

Hallo Nachbar

... yes, I already noticed these CEM ouds, but because I couldn't find any reports about it's quality, I thought I should better stay away from them. Do you know this dealer and his ouds?

Another point is, that I'm not shure, if I will be successful with learning oud. If I should find out, that I'm not born for this instrument, I could easily sell my future oud, if it's a good brand like Shehata for example, but a used "no name" oud is much harder to sell ... don't you think so?

A further problem of mine is, that so far I'm absolutely undecided, which kind of oud is the right for me. Should I choose one with a wider finger board? Which tuning is ideal for a guitarist, who wants to port some guitar techniques to the oud? I also would like a pickup like in my 12-string western guitar, but so far I'm not good enough informed, what is the best solution. But that is off-topic here ... I should better open a further thread in the oud forum for these questions.

Regarding the luthier Matthias Wagner ... he's to far above my bugdet limit of max. 1000$.

Multi Kulti - 10-14-2009 at 11:42 AM

Hallo German Udis

Chris maybe i have something interesting and affordable for you and i live in NRW too . I send you a pm

Nikos

whisperoftheoud - 10-14-2009 at 03:06 PM

Hi,

We are selling our ouds all over the world and if you want , you can check our web page and catalogues too...

Thanks and regards,

http://www.turkishouds.com
http://www.myspace.com/turkishouds
http://www.turkishoud.com

E-mail : info@turkishouds.com

Aymara - 10-14-2009 at 11:18 PM

Good morning!

Quote: Originally posted by Multi Kulti

... and i live in NRW too.

The world is small

I never expected to find someone in these forums, who lives in my region, but your username was promising ... the Ruhr Area is often called a multi culture region, because here are living many people who have their origin in other countries like Turkey, Greeke, Italy, etc.. I like this culture melting pot.

Thanks for your PM.

Quote: Originally posted by whisperoftheoud

We are selling our ouds all over the world ...

Yes, I already visited your nice website ... I really like the main page and the ouds I saw, but I'm more interested in the deep sound of arabic ouds, because the turkish one's are to high for my taste, which reminds me a bit of flamenco guitars. The reason might be, that I once played bass too.

But that doesn't mean, that I don't like turkish music, I'm a fan of Mercan Dede

Because you show some real beauties on your website, let me ask you: Do you build arabic ouds too? And I wonder if my budget isn't to small (1000$) ... prices in Turkey seem to be higher as in the arabic countries ... maybe drop me a PM with your price range.

PS: BTW, here in my region live many turkish people, so that I was a bit astonished, that I couldn't find a shop so far, that sells turkish instruments. But maybe I was only too blind?

fernandraynaud - 10-14-2009 at 11:52 PM

Aymara, welcome to our little community. I would like to make a suggestion or two, if I may.

You might be an unusual person to whom this does not apply, but most people who pick up the oud never put it down, except to go to the bathroom. There is something profoundly emotional about the oud, and there's a good reason it's as important as it is in the entire Middle East. I play bass and guitar, as well as keyboards, and the oud has completely enchanted me.

It's not worth considering "porting some guitar techniques", as this is very different instrument. The neck is narrow, and that's how it should be. The instrument has been perfected over many centuries, millenia in fact. You do not normally chord more than 2 notes at once, and usually none, because single notes are surprisingly more than enough, the sound is so thick, and big chords don't matter for reasons you will discover in time.

Get as good an instrument as you can afford, after learning everything you can learn from reading, because it will be the main instrument in your life for some time to come.

Try to only buy from someone who will let you return the instrument if you don't like it, but you do not have to get an instrument from a star luthier. I'll tell you frankly that there's a bit of elitism and ostentation here like in any group of passionate people, that's fine when you really know what you're doing or can afford not to, but you're not looking for your 5th and most perfect showpiece oud, you don't need a first oud that has the most divinely beautiful rose, or is a copy of the world's greatest oud, or is entirely made of pieces of Noah's ark.

Do a lot of reading in this forum's archives, use the search, there may not be hundreds of posts per subject, but you can find the answers to all your questions.

Unless you have an expert on tap helping you, ordering from a far away luthier without knowing what you're doing is perhaps more courageous than sensible. You're better off buying a used instrument from one of the forum's members, people often sell their (perfectly good) first and second ouds to help finance an 1896 Yoplay Nughat with a cracked soundboard.

You can get an oud in Germany, I'm not local, but I see both Turkish and Arabic types, and if you take your time, $1000 is more than enough to get a good instrument. That way you're not dealing with Winter issues either. Take a trip or two just to go to some shops where you can try some instruments, you need to have a chance to develop a hands-on sense of what's available and what matters to you. Ask some of the German members to help you with this.

Don't bother aiming to buy a "trial instrument" with the idea of selling it, if you don't want it chances are nobody else will be jumping for it either, you'll end up spending more money and you'll have to be buying your "real" instrument within a month, so focus on doing your homework and don't rush to buy until you know your first oud can serve you well. You'll end up with more than one rather quickly anyway, but that way at least you won't have any unplayable orphans lying around.

Another detail. Get the standard plectrum type and start out using that. You can play with your fingers at times, but don't bother with a small guitar pick, they don't work, and nothing can get the ideal sound but the standard "reesha".

Try to find a teacher right away for a couple of lessons to get you started. Unless you plan on twice a week lessons, get Marina's book/DVD, get to know all the linked web-sites, and get OudProf's DVD, which is 4.6 GB of lessons, references, videos, examples, tips.

Though you may in time play all sorts of music on the oud, including stuff you already know, consider it a God-given chance to discover a whole new approach to tonality, scales, composition, etc., so plan to be learning the Arabic system that was conceived around the oud, because it's beautiful, it's a new world, and it goes with the oud like water for a fish.

Welcome to the second part of your musical life, and if you need any help, just ask, and someone will help you.

Aymara - 10-15-2009 at 10:44 AM

Thanks Fernand!

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

..., but most people who pick up the oud never put it down, ...

I'm just a bit anxious to get used to a fretless instrument.

Quote:

It's not worth considering "porting some guitar techniques", as this is very different instrument.

Yes, for shure it is, but there are a few techniques, that are portable and one of them is important for me ... it's a bit hard to explain, because it's a mix of special picking technique and the use of an delay ... that's why I need a pickup sooner or later.

Quote:

..., and big chords don't matter for reasons you will discover in time.

I already know that phenomenon a bit from my 12-string. But some people like new approaches, like my currently favorite oud player Mehdi Haddab of DuOud ... look at this VIDEO for example where he plays electric oud or remember the oud players that tried a step into flamenco.

But I bet most people here would prefer his Taksim. Though I'm impressed by this music and especially it's virtuosity, Taksims currently sound similar to my ears as free jazz

Something like THIS currently sounds more familiar to my europian ears. But we will see how soon this might change.

Quote:

Get as good an instrument as you can afford, ...

I think with guitars it's not different ... you need a minimum quality to avoid frustrations.

Quote:

..., because it will be the main instrument in your life for some time to come.

I hope so, too.

Quote:

I'll tell you frankly that there's a bit of elitism and ostentation here like in any group of passionate people, ...

Yes, I know that from photography.

Quote:

You can get an oud in Germany, ...

Yes, maybe a good used one, but with shops I wasn't lucky so far ... only the above mentioned CEM ouds, but that shop is very far away.

Quote:

..., get Marina's book/DVD, ...

I think, it's THIS one?

Quote:

Welcome to the second part of your musical life, ...

Hehe ... that sounds promising.

Christian1095 - 10-15-2009 at 11:21 AM

Hey let us know if you decide to check out the CEM shop... I haven't heard anything about them and would love some feedback about thier shop....

Aymara - 10-15-2009 at 11:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Christian1095

I haven't heard anything about them and would love some feedback about thier shop....

Maybe Marcus can help here? The CEM shop is located in Mannheim, which is not far from Stuttgart, where Marcus lives.

Aymara - 10-15-2009 at 02:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Maybe Marcus can help here?

I think, that's not needed, when I read THIS Diskussion about CEM ouds ... just what I expected.

fernandraynaud - 10-15-2009 at 05:00 PM

That's a long thread you refer to. So bottom line do you think you can live with one of CEM's ouds? Pegs slip until you apply a bit of hard soap and chalk, and learn to push them in as you tune. This is not the oud's strong side, but that's the classical design. Planetary geared pegs are expensive. Machine tuners are ugly and heavy.

That's the German shop I was seeing and thinking you should take a trip to, get there in the morning and spend the rest of the day trying different instruments, and telling the salespeople you are a very rich anarchist and they should leave you alone.

Mehdi Haddab plays electric but his technique is strictly oud.

Nein, nein, nein, ich glaube dieser (mit DVD) ist ganz besser

http://www.amazon.de/Basics-Oud-DVD-Marina-Toshich/dp/0786678631/re...

Aymara - 10-15-2009 at 11:57 PM

Good Morning!

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

So bottom line do you think you can live with one of CEM's ouds?

I'm still very sceptic for several reasons:

1. We have one happy customer in the linked discussion, but we don't know, if our french friend could solve the problem with the tuning pegs.

2. All of their ouds seem to be turkish models, which might be a downside (not as bassy as an arabic model) or an advantage (both tunings can be used). On the other hand I expect, that it would be easier for a guitarist to get familiar with an arabic tuning, than with a turkish ... or am I wrong? Fact is, I find the sound of arabic ouds more "attractive". Turkish ouds remind me a bit of the sound of flamenco guitars.

3. Though they have models with a pickup already build in, the jack, where you plug in the cable is unfavourably placed in that region, that "sits" on your thigh, while you play. On my acoustic guitar, this jack is placed on the bottom and combined with the guitar belt holder. I would have expected a similar placement on the oud.

Quote:

This is not the oud's strong side, but that's the classical design. Planetary geared pegs are expensive.

When anybody buys an expensive high quality instrument, be it oud, violin or another with the same tuning peg concept, I would nowadays expect something more "comfortable" than this historical design.

Quote:

Machine tuners are ugly and heavy.

If we have mechanics in mind like on guitars, yes. But how about THESE so called "pegheds"? I'm astonished, that something like this isn't standard on high quailty ouds. Are these babies availlable for oud now and if so, what's the price? Are there maybe other manufacturers with a similar concept?

Quote:

That's the German shop I was seeing and thinking you should take a trip to, ...

They are far away from my location and the highway route is a pain ... lots of traffic jam.

Quote:

..., and telling the salespeople you are a very rich anarchist and they should leave you alone.

Hehe, when they hear me play, they would call me an oud terrorist ... I think it would be wise to take an advanced oud player with me, if I ever should visit this shop.

Quote:

Mehdi Haddab plays electric but his technique is strictly oud.

He plays both (acoustic too) and yes, he mainly plays the "classical" oud style.

Quote:

Nein, nein, nein, ich glaube dieser (mit DVD) ist ganz besser ...

Wow, where did you learn german ... thanks for the tip!

Danielo - 10-16-2009 at 12:34 AM

Keep in mind that the fingers are extraordinary precise instruments

Tuning a oud with standard pegs, provided they (and the pegbox) are well-made, is VERY accurate. With slight finger pressure on the pegs you can do micro-fine adjustments
without any trouble.

I advise you not to bother with this. If your budget is not unlimited (these geared things are expensive), I would advise you to concentrate on more essential aspects: the sound of course, but also the quality of the fingerboard, a good action for playability (not too high, not too low).

Good luck!

Dan

Aymara - 10-16-2009 at 12:49 AM

Hi Danielo!

Quote: Originally posted by Danielo

I advise you not to bother with this.

Mmh, the more I read about mechanical pegs, the more I ask myself: Why not?

Look, what I found HERE ... 110 Euros for 12 pegs from Gotoh might be worth a consideration.

Quote:

..., but also the quality of the fingerboard, a good action for playability (not too high, not too low).

That's what I consider most important of all, especially for beginners.

I became to know many guitarists, who told me that they had a hard time trying out a 12-string. But when they tried mine, where the strings have a very good action (height over the fingerboard) and where I chose thinner strings as most others, they began loving this instrument.

I expect it to be exactly the same with ouds.

Marcus - 10-16-2009 at 01:06 AM

Hi Chris :wavey:

I played a CEM oud once, the one witch is about 230€. It was not to bad,like Owain Hawks said in the other thread,not loud , good action and the sound was o.k.But it was a turkish oud and you like a arab one, right?

About the tuning difference, there are lots of different tunings,but the "standard"tuning on turkish ouds is just 1 hole tone higher than the arabic.

Untill 1 1/2 years ago I called myself a guitarrist and bass player with a few other instruments beside. Since I fell in love with the oud I`m a oudplayer and the most other instruments are somewhere lost in space

Dont worry about the difference between guitar and oud ,and the unfretted neck...everything comes easily on its own!! :airguitar:

I totally agree with fernandreynoud: A new chapter of your musical life starts as soon as you find your first oud!!

The pegheads are amazing, they cost around 80€ per piece.Perfect for Violins etc., but unfortunately a oud have 11 or 12 pegs.Just a bit to much, for this amount of money I`ll buy another oud

(and another....and another.....to be continued

)

cheers,
Marcus

Aymara - 10-16-2009 at 01:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Marcus

But it was a turkish oud and you like a arab one, right?

The first time I heard an oud, was when Avishai Cohen's album Continuo came out. As soon as I heard THIS song, Amos Hoffman infected me with the oud virus. A few days later I went to my favorite Jazz & World Music shop and bought an album of Rabih Abou-Khalil: Journey to the Center of an Egg.

I also like DuOud, Jean Pierre Smadj & Mehdi Haddab, very much.

So I think, I should get an arabic oud, don't you think so?

Quote:

...everything comes easily on its own!! :airguitar:

I hope so.

Quote:

Just a bit to much, for this amount of money I`ll buy another oud

That's why I find the Japanese pegs from Gotoh promising ... 110 Euro for a set of 12 pegs is a different house's number, as we say in Germany

fernandraynaud - 10-16-2009 at 01:45 AM

If you can get a decent CEM turkish for 230-350 that's maybe a good oud to start with. If people have tried them, and the action is low enough, you're probably OK. BUT I WOULD GET ON THE TRAIN AND GO PICK ONE OUT IN PERSON. It's not true you have to spend $1000. You'll have your Turkish out of the way. You'll tune it Arabic, and it being a little smaller is not so bad. You won't have a heart attack if you scratch it with the pickup. Save the rest of your $1000 for a very specific Arabic later on after you have a real idea of what you really like.

If you can really get those pegheads for 110 a SET? I hadn't ever seen them that cheap. That's well worth it. Even with the cost of someone with the right reamers installing them.

The wood pegs are part of the experience if it turns out the pegheads are too expensive. There are always problems with the wound strings "jumping", or on the contrary staying put, while the inner core slides and stretches. The nut is as much a problem, hard to get it just right. In the end most of us have problems of one sort or another with pegs, but it's easier to just live with them than really solve the problem, because it's trickier than it seems. One peg on an instrument will turn out to be more tapered, so if you aren't pushing it in enough, it's just waiting to work out on you while you're tuning ... sproink, down an octave. But if you soap/chalk them, they stay put. So now they're hard to turn. You take a running start ... and overshoot, undershoot, almost there, tap it, boink, down a "notch". :mad:

It's no big deal, you curse a little, so what. The geared machines are absurdly ugly. The panetaries I see are expensive. The wood pegs are a bit of a pain, but there's one consolation, and that's how well the tuning holds once the strings stabilize. The tuning will hold within 5 cents most of the day in the studio, and that's amazing. Anybody who thinks 11 strings is a nuisance, try 110 strings on a harpsichord, and they barely hold to within 5 cents all day.

Aymara - 10-16-2009 at 02:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Save the rest of your money for a very specific Arabic later on after you have a real idea of what you really like.

Regarding arabic ouds the question is, which design would serve me best. Regarding optics, I could fell in love with THIS Shehata model. I especially like ebony. On the other hand I find Samir Azar's model with the floating bridge and it's "simple" design interesting ... I would expect, that open sound holes sound better (or just louder?) than the one's with ornaments?
But because I want to be able to dampen the strings sometimes with my heel of the hand when picking, I ask myself, if a fixed bridge might be the better choice.

Quote:

If you can really get those pegheads for 110 Euros a SET? I hadn't ever seen them that cheap.

That's what was mentioned on the linked page ... I'll have to verify german prices.

Quote:

Even with the cost of someone with the right reamers installing them.

I think, it should be no problem to find a luthier to install them here in Germany.

Marcus - 10-16-2009 at 02:13 AM

Hi again Chris,

Quote:

So I think, I should get an arabic oud, don't you think so?

Hmmm, my first one I bought in istanbul because I listen to turkish music since years.I have a baglama before and it was kind of a lucky fortuity that a guy plays on a oud when I step in the shop.
Back home I searched "oud" on youtube and the journey
through arabic music beginns, so at next I bought a set of arab strings and tune my turkish oud arabic.
Than I found THIS
on youtube.I was totally freaked oud about the sound of this ouds....and change strings again back to turkish.
Lond speech-short sense( like we say in germany:rolleyes

I end up with 1 turkish and 1 arab oud(till now) :bounce:

Marcus

fernandraynaud - 10-16-2009 at 02:14 AM

Chris, you see you're asking a lot of questions that nobody can answer so quickly. If you don't have the patience and time, a decent oud might hold you until you figure it all out.

do a lot of reading and go to mannheim.

Aymara - 10-16-2009 at 09:18 AM

Hi again!

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

If you can really get those pegheads for 110 a SET?

The price is correct. The standard price ... see HERE in Gotoh's store ... 34.10$ per set and one set is 4 pegs, as mentioned on the above linked page.

4 sets = 136.40$
1 assembling tool = 7.70$
_____________________
= 144.10$ (~ 97.40€)

Quote: Originally posted by Marcus

I end up with 1 turkish and 1 arab oud(till now) :bounce:

And which one do you prefer? Or does that change from time to time?

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Chris, you see you're asking a lot of questions that nobody can answer so quickly.

Thanks god, I'm not in a hurry ... though it's not easy to be patient

Danielo - 10-16-2009 at 11:42 AM

Hi again,

there are several choices that you have to make when you order a oud (besides the quality of course). Once you have solved the arabic/turkish dilemma you should ask yourself (e.g. for an arabic):

-fixed bridge or floating bridge ?
-which string length? 58,5, 60 or 61,5 cm ?
-11 or 13 strings?
-classical or extended fingerboard?
-which woods will give me the sound I like?
-Syrian-type, Egyptian type, Iraqi-type,...

... and so on (not mentioning the esthetical aspects).

I would advice you either:

-to choose a cheap (but decent) oud to start. When you will know what you want, you will keep this first as a travel instrument for instance.

-to buy a better quality one on the used market. If you find a good deal, you can play it for a while and then, if it does not correspond to your wishes, you can re-sell it at more or less the same price in order to buy your dreamed oud.. I saw for instance, in France, two Sukar ouds (which are good quality instruments from Aleppo) in new condition for less than 200 euros, during last month.

Take your time

Dan

fernandraynaud - 10-16-2009 at 02:42 PM

Chris, I don't think they are $35 a SET, where do you see the word "set" or "four"? I'm pretty sure they are $35 EACH. I just called a local luthier. They said they can get them at discount, only $25 EACH, and they quoted me a price of $600 total with labor for installing 12 gotoh pegs, they said it's more work installing them than ordinary pegs. They graciously would only charge me $300 total with labor for putting on 12 standard Viola pegs.

THAT's a big reason we all live with our peggy problems, which in per$pective are not so serious.

The alternative is to (ever so gradually) allow the thought that perhaps you would prefer machine-smoothed pegs that MIGHT work smoother? But then you have to hypothesize that the 16:1 taper that is more or less standard on lutes and ouds, is the product of Neanderthal ignorance, and what you need is 25:1 or 30:1 taper, because that's the ONLY taper that you can get very nice wood viola pegs in, lovely machined shiny pegs that you can buy in ebony or rosewood or tigerwood or whatever, and (irreversibly) ream out the pegbox holes with the $50 25:1 or 30:1 reamer you buy, and install them. But then again, maybe there's a reason the Neanderthals use 16:1 taper, and then you would have to shave your viola pegs to such a taper, but it's not easy finding such a shaver (that you can afford), and I refer you to the archives of Mike's Ouds for the obituaries and insane-asylum commitment papers for oud players who have gone down this path, including such activities as designing peg shavers (and reamers) that can adapt to an unknown taper by copying that of an existing peg ... but then ... do I DARE enlarge those holes ... ssshht! I hear THEM coming, they are bringing my injection, and I must keep quiet!

Yours truly,
patient-in-chains Fernand Raynaud.

p.s. I LIKE my moody woody oudy pegs, tra la la ..

Brian Prunka - 10-16-2009 at 04:13 PM

Here you go, it is 34.10 per set of four:

http://ssl.bfit.jp/~jby/product_info.php?cPath=55&products_id=170&osCsid=0c26de88e226885842ff017f5346c678

Aymara - 10-17-2009 at 12:13 AM

Good morning,

maybe let's try to find out more about my potential dream oud ... what kind should it be?

Quote: Originally posted by Danielo

Once you have solved the arabic/turkish dilemma ...

I'm totally fascinated by the sound of Mehdi Haddab's oud in THIS Taksim, so my "dream oud" should sound similar. Ok, there's a lot of reverb mixed in, but one thing is a fact, I should buy an arabic oud.

What do you think? What kind of oud does Mehdi use HERE ... I bet it's the same as in his Taksim. Is it an Egyptian oud? Too bad, that most artists don't mention on their website, what "brand" they play, like many guitarists and drummer do.

Quote:

-fixed bridge or floating bridge ?

For dampening the strings sometimes while picking, the floating bridge seems theoretically preferable, but I need to test that out ... not easy in Germany.

What downsides and advantages do YOU see in both bridge concepts?

Quote:

-which string length? 58,5, 60 or 61,5 cm ?

I don't know ... which downsides/advantages should I expect here? I read somewhere, that it's easier to play fast on shorter strings.

Quote:

-11 or 13 strings?

I think 11, because that's similar to my 12-string guitar and most string sets seem to be 11. So I see more options for string choice for 11-sets ... or am I wrong?

Quote:

-classical or extended fingerboard?

Definitly extended ... when this means, if it ends at the soundboard or goes down to the soundhole.

Quote:

-which woods will give me the sound I like?

I don't know, but I would really like an ebony fingerboard. Do you have any links in mind, which explain the wood differences?

Quote:

I saw for instance, in France, two Sukar ouds (which are good quality instruments from Aleppo) in new condition for less than 200 euros, during last month.

A used Sukar for 200€ ? I think, that were entry level Sukars, that cost about 400$ new?

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

I hear THEM coming, they are bringing my injection, and I must keep quiet!

Hehe ... I like your humor, Fernand.

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

..., it is 34.10 per set of four

I think so too, they write "4pcs/set". And HERE we see a different brand, which I found discussed in a violin forum and they are also sold in a set of 4.

fernandraynaud - 10-17-2009 at 06:30 AM

I'm really not sure now, I see the 4 per set, but the quantity is 1, so it's confusing, and categorically two luthiers now have told me a set of 4 geared pegs costs > $100. I think maybe there's another explanation. I was asking the luthiers about PLANETARY GEARED PEGS, i.e. like Pegheads. Maybe these Gotohs are NOT geared, maybe they are just aluminum pegs that you can tighten with a torque adjustment wrench? Not sure that's good enough, but maybe.

The next step is trying to contact this outfit in tokyo, and I have written them, I hope to have a reply soon.

Aymara - 10-17-2009 at 06:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

..., I see the 4 per set, ...

That might mean 4 pegs in one set or it might mean the 4 pieces we see on the small photo.

Quote:

Maybe these Gotohs are NOT geared, ...

In the violin forum they wrote, that both Gotoh and Perfection Pegs are geared and come in sets of 4 pegs.

Good to know, that you requested detailed information from the shop ... so we soon will have a precise info :applause:

Aymara - 10-17-2009 at 07:55 AM

Hi again,

now I know how to get an oud in Germany ... see HERE ... but where do I get these strings?

Sorry, if you already know this.

fernandraynaud - 10-17-2009 at 05:42 PM

Chris,

I hate to tell you this, but in both your clips I see Mehdi Heddab playing more a Turkish than Arabic oud. You know, it's not a simple either/or categorical thing, more and more the designs have merged, but his ouds have 1) the classical Turkish 3 hole design 2) the smaller size 3) the brighter tone.

A more typical Arabic sound would be earthier and with less high ringing, but with a sort of echoing bottom, more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T1eVrsDZKw

I LOVE that Arabic sound. You CAN tune a Turkish down, dress it up in baggy pants and a fez, but it will still not quite sound Arabic.

Floating bridge (Iraqi = "Bashir") ouds almost invariably sound very bright, often even brighter than Turkish ouds. This is a very typical sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8bJ-3iim3w

13 string sets can be hard to find except as expensive custom sets, but a Daniel Mari Turkish set + the ff strings costs $9 + maybe $1.50 shipping to Germany, so I think that's a perfect set, as you can use it for 9, 10, 11, 12 or 13 string, Turkish or Arabic. Because of tuning vs. scale, Turkish and Arabic strings are the same thing, it's much better to think in terms of gauge.

http://www.ostriemusicsupplies.com/oud-strings.htm

Different woods? Ebony is hard and heavy, good for fingerboard, but it's not clear if it's ideal for other parts. Some say that cheaper ouds use softer wood and so don't sound as clear. Others say that too hard a wood on the bowl makes it sound too harsh. I don't know. Soundboards are another specialty item.

BTW, Sukars all have a common design producing a powerful sound with strong bass and can be made as bright as you want as well. The cheapest ones are still excellent, that's what I'd get if I were you. The only flaws I've found in my Model 1 Sukar are normal issues - e.g. if I can get planetary pegs for $100 for 12, my Sukar may get a set for Christmas.

And here is a difficult truth: you should try some instruments in person, but still a lot of the sound quality of an oud cannot be reliably predicted even from playing it the first time, as it seriously changes as it matures. I have an Egyptian I got that I wanted to try out. The sound was only OK, so I was just about to return it, when it started sounding better and better and better. Now I REALLY like it, and wouldn't DREAM of giving it up.

So many disciplines meet to make a musical instrument. I wish you success in learning EVERYTHING.

Sazi - 10-17-2009 at 08:54 PM

Hey Chris, here on my youtube page http://www.youtube.com/user/Sazi369 are a couple of playlists, one of fixed bridge ouds and one of floating bridge (Bashir style) ouds, (more vid's as they are my personal preference) As you will hear if you just pick a few different players, there is a huge variety of tone, resonance and response in both types of oud. There's not much Turkish Ud on there, but here is a clip with a beautiful rich deep sounding Turkish oud made by Ramazan Calay, (his short fingerboard ouds are around 1000 euro) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QMq6Q36FAU

Hope this helps... Cheers, S

Aymara - 10-18-2009 at 02:15 AM

Hi again!

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

I hate to tell you this, but in both your clips I see Mehdi Heddab playing more a Turkish than Arabic oud.

Mmh, though this is possible, I can't believe it ... does his Taksim really sound like a turkish oud with arabic tuning? Mmh, but when I compare with Sazi's Turkish example ... maybe you're right. But in this video the oud's corpus seems to be noticably larger than on most Turkish ouds, don't you think so?

Quote:

..., more and more the designs have merged, but his ouds have 1) the classical Turkish 3 hole design ...

Most Egyptian ouds seem to have the same 3-hole design, don't they?

Quote:

2) the smaller size

Mmh, I think his acoustic oud looks bigger than a turkish one, doesn't it? But again ... the size in Sazi's example is similar.

Quote:

I LOVE that Arabic sound.

Me too ... maybe because we both play(ed) bass too?

Quote:

Floating bridge (Iraqi = "Bashir") ouds almost invariably sound very bright, often even brighter than Turkish ouds.

Yes and no ... Sazi's video collection is helpful here ... there are huge differences. Some have a deep bassy sound and others even sound similar to a flamenco guitar, like THIS one ... I think, that's what you mean with "brighter as Turkish ouds"?

Quote:

Ebony is hard and heavy, good for fingerboard, ...

I think this is, why ebony fingerboards became standard on classic strings (violin, etc.). I wonder, why it didn't become standard on ouds.

Quote:

The cheapest ones are still excellent, that's what I'd get if I were you.

His Model 1 seems to be a popular beginner model or am I wrong? Do you have priceing information and know if they deliver to Europe? I read very different info about this.

Quote:

..., as it seriously changes as it matures.

I have the impression, that ouds and violins have something in common here ... many players seem to prefer "oldtimers"

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

As you will hear if you just pick a few different players, there is a huge variety of tone, resonance and response in both types of oud.

Yes, for shure and that leads me to the conclusion, that the most important factors (though not only) for the oud's sound characteristics are the size of the corpus, the soundhole concept (size, open or with ornaments) and the used strings.

Sazi - 10-18-2009 at 04:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Hmm, it could be a little more complicated than that... here is a clip from one of our forum members, trying out three Arabic ouds, all from the same maker, but with bowls of different timbers, and as you will hear, there is quite a difference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcojIpzy5vY

Aymara - 10-18-2009 at 05:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

Hmm, it could be a little more complicated than that...

Yes, for shure ... there are much more sound influencing factors, but the above mentioned seem to be very important.

Quote:

here is a clip from one of our forum members, trying out three Arabic ouds, all from the same maker, ...

Very interesting, though we should keep in mind, that MP3s cut all overtones above 16 KHz (or even lower, depending on the bitrate), which makes the comparison of sound characteristics a bit difficult. With most videos it's even worse. We can hear a difference though. But I bet, the two guys in this video heard a greater difference, than we can in this video.

What I find interesting is, that it seems, that the shape difference of the soundhole between the first two ouds seem to play an important role and that the third one uses different strings/tuning (?).

SamirCanada - 10-18-2009 at 05:40 AM

I believe Mehdi's oud is from Morocco and is possibly made by Bin Harbeet.
but it shouldnt be too hard to drop him an email and ask what is the maker of his instrument.

Aymara, I also agree that it is much better to get properly fitted pegs then to get those geared pegs. It seems like you may have never tuned a oud before and you are already seeking to get those geared pegs...

You should know that many times the peg isnt always the problem when tuning a oud... often times the nut is not correctly grooved and you will find the strings will catch.

Wooden pegs when properly fitted are excellent and also, when your taste for fine ouds will develop in time (and that is inevitable

just ask people around here) you will find it very hard to tune it. Think about it if some one hands you a nahat or a manol to try one day and you are lost when it comes to tuning it.
I like to make the analogy with cars. some are automatic and some are manual. but as you will agree the finest ones are almost always manual. Imagine your friend just bought a new porche and hands you the keys. You will probably be exited but if you cant drive stick your SOL...

fernandraynaud - 10-18-2009 at 07:35 AM

Chris, I can understand your desire to "get a picture". But you should get your hands on some ouds. I think the relationship between materials, shape, holes, etc etc is far far more complex and unpredictable than you think. You have that shop in Mannheim, we don't even have such a shop in all of Northern Calif, and I doubt they have one in Southern Calif , so take a nice train ride and go touch some wood.

You can't have any idea looking at pictures. One unexpected discovery will be how crudely most ouds are made. Look VERY carefully at MOST of the pictures of ouds on USA e-bay. It's like they don't believe in rulers and metal triangles. AND YET most of those are playable and not that bad, the snobs will tell you you have to spend $1500 or more, but do you think most Syrian or Egyptian professional musicians, I mean the guys who play in cafes and stuff, do you think they will usually spend more than $1500 on an oud? I don't think so. You have to digest that in context or you will be unhappy with what could be a very nice oud. And look at the tools they use. You have to separate what is cosmetic from what is functional. It's like the kid who keeps complaining about what his dad got him. He doesn't understand these issues yet.

Turkish ouds are not ukuleles, they are only a little bit smaller than Arabic, and there are many intermediate styles. Still, Mehdi's oud on those 2 clips sound typically Turkish to me. That's a very good sound, it's just that I prefer the Arabic fixed bridge sound. I'm not crazy about floating bridge ouds, they DO sound like Flamenco guitars with tight strings.

It's true that wood pegs are part of the experience, and that you're not likely to improve a 5000 year old design overnight, it's kind of silly to start out wanting to change it, without first knowing the original very well. For example, ebony is not the standard peg material on ouds, you ask why not, and if you really dig in the subject it turns out that ebony is so hard and abrasive that it will rapidly enlarge the hole in the pegbox, which is why violins are constantly in need of pegbox repairs.

If you want to just ORDER one, when all is said and done, it seems that unless you just get lucky, there is no better deal on an oud than a Sukar. In the US anyway, the rational choice on a first oud is a Model 1 Sukar. It is cosmetically not very elaborate, but you can decorate it as fancy as you want, maybe like Mehdi's electric ;-) The most important things are the design is reliable, all Sukars are good, the neck/action can be adjusted and it sounds and plays great. It has what we might call a "strong bright Arabic sound". Palmyrami sells them for under $400 with a hard case. The reason they are so good is because Sukar's got the design perfected to where they are predictable. We have no recent experience in this group with European delivery by Palmyrami, but in the US they have been OK of late.

Marcus - 10-19-2009 at 02:07 AM

Hi Chris :wavey:

Quote:

And which one do you prefer? Or does that change from time to time?

Yes, it changes lots of times.Sometimes I swop a few times within 1-2 hours,than I play one for weeks.
Bevore I bought the arabic one it was a lot of tuning up and down,a bit stressy,but................I`m very used to wooden pegs now,no need at all to attach mechanical pegs!!

Sazi - 10-19-2009 at 04:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Marcus

I`ll buy another oud

(and another....and another.....to be continued

)

That's the spirit! After all, they are each unique,....

Hey Chris, this is what's known as an advanced case of "ouditis"

Be afraid! you'll get it too, just like the rest of us here!

Aymara - 10-19-2009 at 05:47 AM

Hi again!

Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada

I believe Mehdi's oud is from Morocco and is possibly made by Bin Harbeet.

Interesting hint.

Quote:

It seems like you may have never tuned a oud before and you are already seeking to get those geared pegs...

No, I never tuned an oud, only the old violin of my uncle ... and that was a pain. So after reading, that many cheaper ouds have tuning problems, I searched info about alternatives ... just for the case of the cases.

But I hope to find a nice oud, maybe used, without running into tuning trouble.

Quote:

... often times the nut is not correctly grooved and you will find the strings will catch.

I read that hard sope will help here as on the pegs too, though I thought of graphit first ... theoretically.

Quote:

... when your taste for fine ouds will develop in time you will find it very hard to tune it.

You mean "historic" ouds? Why is it more difficult to tune them?

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

You have that shop in Mannheim, ..., so take a nice train ride ...

That ticket will cost nearly 180 Euros ... so I think travelling by car is the only option ... and a lot of hassle. And from what I saw on their Ebay shop, chances are small, that they have an oud, I will like.

And just for a little experience that trip is too long and expensive.

Quote:

You can't have any idea looking at pictures.

Yes, for shure ... let's knock on wood ... maybe I'll soon have a chance to test a used Samir Azar oud.

Quote:

I mean the guys who play in cafes and stuff, do you think they will usually spend more than $1500 on an oud?

Well, from what I read, Syrian musicians pay around 120$ for a Sukar oud, we have to pay 400$ or even more

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

Be afraid! you'll get it too, just like the rest of us here!

Well, I don't think, I'll become an oud collector

I don't expect my first oud to be perfect, but my second one should be able to serve me well for several years.

fernandraynaud - 10-19-2009 at 12:04 PM

Well, from what I read, Syrian musicians pay around 120$ for a Sukar oud, we have to pay 400$ or even more

There's customs, taxes, shipping, and several people along the line making a living, no? I can't believe Europeans, traveling a few hundred km becomes an impossible expedition! If you can't go try one out, and can't spend over $1000, stick to a maker that has a very good track record.

Historic ouds have wood pegs, he meant, not geared machines.

The nut is very tricky because of the angles involved. You will see.

Aymara - 10-19-2009 at 12:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

There's customs, taxes, shipping, and several people along the line making a living, no?

Yes, but the 400$ I mentioned is without shipping and taxes

If someone buys from a dealer in the US, you're right.

Quote:

I can't believe Europeans, traveling a few hundred km becomes an impossible expedition!

From what I saw in their shop on Ebay, it is very likely, that this trip will end in a little more experience and not in an oud, I'd like to buy. And because I'm not willing to pay 180€ for the overpriced german train, I will have to stay for about 6-8 hours or even more on the highway (incl. the way back), depending of traffic. If I would know, that they also sell ouds from good luthiers besides this questionable factory ones, I would have been already there.

Quote:

If you can't go try one out, and can't spend over $1000, stick to a maker that has a very good track record.

That's one of my plans. Besides that, I might soon have the chance to buy a used Samir Azar oud, which I can tryout before ... let's knock on wood :rolleyes:

If I should find out, that this oud isn't the right type for me, I might try the Mannheim trip or ask some Turkish people around here for tips.

Quote:

The nut is very tricky because of the angles involved. You will see.

Thanks for the hint.

fernandraynaud - 10-19-2009 at 01:26 PM

Chris,

The cheaper Gotoh pegs were designed by a company whose name I forget, Meisel I think, but I just read they just went out of business, so we will see, but it looks like a less expensive source of metal pegs just went under, and we may be back to > $100 for four. We'll see what the Japanese store says, i have friends in Tokyo who could help us if needed.

Aymara - 10-19-2009 at 01:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

..., and we may be back to > $100 for four.

The Perfection Pegs are a bit cheaper ... check the link I posted above.

Quote:

We'll see what the Japanese store says, i have friends in Tokyo who could help us if needed.

Wow, thanks for the infos.

fernandraynaud - 10-19-2009 at 03:57 PM

Oh, Chris, here is another good example of quite "Arabic" timbre:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2d9hNOKZYw

Sazi - 10-19-2009 at 04:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Well, I don't think, I'll become an oud collector

I don't expect my first oud to be perfect, but my second one should be able to serve me well for several years.

No I didn't really mean that, what I'm trying to get across is that the deeper you get into ouds, i.e. the more you try out, and the further your playing develops, you realise that as every oud is unique, often one oud will not fulfill all your needs, unless you are really lucky, or one-eyed (one eared?) or spend a wad of cash on a custom built oud to your taste, (which even then may change). For instance - I have a really nice oud that is well playable, has a great tone, and looks good, but after playing live with it a few times, realised it just doesn't have the projection I need, so bought another, which projects really well, but that one is SO loud I can't play it late at night for instance, whereas the other one I can without causing too much angst for my housemates/neighbors etc. Also you may, as others here mentioned, want to use various tunings for different projects/bands/styles, or need a different tone, or response, so later you may realise you need more than just the one oud.

At least you really do need to do what others have suggested and personally try out as many as possible. Then you may have a better idea of the complexities involved.

Happy ouding!

Aymara - 10-20-2009 at 02:11 AM

Hi again!

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

..., here is another good example of quite "Arabic" timbre ...

Wow, that's an old one ... the looks of the guy left behind of the player made me smile, btw.

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

No I didn't really mean that, ...

Ah, ok, now I know, what you mean. Later maybe an electric oud might become handy, be it for playing late in the evening with headphones or for some new approaches as I'm not that interested in oriental classic music, but more in a fusion with Rock and Pop.

fernandraynaud - 10-20-2009 at 02:12 AM

Chris, I don't know if oud is so special, or the people in this groups are. I imagine there are fanatics of television sets who own several, one for each room and mood. But I think it's not the same thing. I quickly went from 0 to 3 ouds, so i'm like others here.

I appreciate subtle differences and each musical instrument is like a world to explore. But there is something about what we might call the "older instruments", the oud is one for sure, that calls us to a deeper sense of music, and that's no joke.

When you consider that many people here started out with the intention of using the oud their way, only to find themselves learning Taqsim and Arabic music theory along with other oud players, it says a lot about the persuasive nature of this instrument.

fernandraynaud - 10-20-2009 at 02:28 AM

Let me give you the simple version: I did not expect to, but I found in Maqamat a different approach to music, that I need & want to better understand.

Aymara - 10-20-2009 at 02:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

I imagine there are fanatics of television sets ...

I know a similar phenomenon from photography. There are some hobbyists with such an expensive equipment, where others prefer to buy a new car instead

But wasn't it Amsel Adams (I'm not quite shure), who said: "It's the photographer who takes the pictures, not the camera."

I think with oudism it's similar.

Quote:

When you consider that many people here started out with the intention of using the oud their way, only to find themselves learning Taqsim and Arabic music theory ...

Let me tell you something ...

When I first heard Taksims, I thought, wow, what a virtuosity, but it sounded similar strange to my ears as Free Jazz ... in other words, it's not easy to get used to it.
But when I heard Mehdi Haddab's Taksim several times because I was fascinated by this special sound, it suddenly became familiar ... like the melody of an evergreen

So I thought, it might be wise to do the following:

1. Get used to the tuning and playing MY kind of music on a fretless fingerboard by using my preferred guitar plectrum.

Then, when I'm able to play without looking closely, what my left hand does, I'll concentrate on my right hand and ...

2. get used to the risha.

Until then, I wouldn't be astonished, if number 3 comes on it's own:

3. learn oriental music.

I call it oriental for now, because I'm not shure, if it will be only Arabic or maybe Turkish too.

PS: I'm not very good in reading notes, though I learned it about over 30 years ago.

PPS: In European music theory we distinguish between serious and popular music ... sorry, I don't know the exact terms in English ... and I never was a fan of serious music, especially Classic, except Jazz. I think, with oriental music it's the same, some tunes sound really strange to my ears, while others make me step with my feet

Sazi - 10-20-2009 at 04:52 AM

I think the last two posts from Fernandraynaud in this thread sum up the feelings of many of us, and I give a BIG thanks to Mike :bowdown:

for giving us this great, interesting and informative forum where we can learn from and share with one another all aspects of this wonderful instrument, the oud, which sings to the heart.

Cheers, S

Aymara - 10-20-2009 at 05:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

..., and I give a BIG thanks to Mike :bowdown:

Shure, this community is great. And I especially like, that it's peaceful ... in many other forums I found much more controversy.

"Musik verbindet" (music unifies) as we say in Germany, which means, that music brings people peacefully together, no matter, where they come from.