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Alternative Sound for PVF trebles? Nylgut, Rectified, Gut or Plain? Share which brands u use!

FLIPAX - 11-2-2009 at 01:24 PM

:wavey:

Hi Marhaba! To All the People Tuning in this Community!

Im Looking for an alternative for PVF Sound for G & C. I know that PVF has its own sound. But im looking if there some Sets that the trebles are almost got the attack of PVF not necessarily same but close.

Coz I would like my Trebles to be a little bit more attack and percussive bite not dull and fat sounding. and PVF are a bit too piercing.

Because I like to stop notes and mute it from my right hand. And Also at the high registers and playing it softly then bam!! in order to get dynamics and natural harmonics. Which is very hard if you have a normal nylon which has a Round warm earthly sound. Although you can still do it but not as clear.

Any Suggestions? Alternative Brands?

Does the Nylon Trebles of Pyramid Lute String sets have more attack?

Thanks in Advance Guys!

I hope I could Play like the rest of you professionals Here in the forum. I a Beginner Novice.

I hope Im Making Sense..........

Please Help Im trap in this Problem.
Cant sleep for 3 days thinking of it.

Driving me nuts! :shrug:

Shukran!

GodBless all of You Here In the Forum! :applause:

Shalom my friends,
-Philip :airguitar:

katakofka - 11-2-2009 at 06:04 PM

try the Nylgut strings, although I prefer PVF as compared to Nylgut. The 2 gg and cc strings in the aquila set are Nylgut
http://www.khalafoud.com/aquilastrings.htm

Sazi - 11-2-2009 at 06:18 PM

Good suggestion, nylguts have great attack,... but they don't sustain as well as pvf.
I also have found that the quality is too inconsistant, sometimes two strings in a course are in tune when open but go out more the further up the neck you go, I'm not the only one to notice that, but I suppose if you play mainly in first position it doesn't matter.

Kelly - 11-3-2009 at 02:40 PM

Hi there

Have you tried Kuerschner strings?The trebles can be bought seperately and they have more attack than pyramids. They certainly have the capacity to be played soft or hard and give you the dynamic I think you may be after .You can request particular needs on the ordering site. eg scale length, tension, string sound character etc. They are a little pricey certainly for the full sets but they are long lasting.

http://www.kuerschner-saiten.de/english/start.php?spr=e

I hope you are sleeping better soon

Aymara - 11-3-2009 at 03:49 PM

Hi!

Quote: Originally posted by Kelly

You can request particular needs on the ordering site. eg scale length, tension, string sound character etc.

Different tunings too?

I find the mentioned arabic tuning unusual: d' - a - e - B - A - E

But I read, that many people really like Kürschner strings ... they have a great reputation.

Sazi - 11-3-2009 at 04:49 PM

Yes I've heard great reports from friends about Kürshner, once they've tried them can't can't go back to anything else and be satisfied! I have'nt tried them myself.

Aymara - 11-4-2009 at 01:08 AM

Hi again!

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Different tunings too?

I was blind :rolleyes:

... I just looked at the German site. On the English site they mention, that different tunings are available on request :applause:

Sazi - 11-4-2009 at 04:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

I find the mentioned arabic tuning unusual: d' - a - e - B - A - E

This is a Turkish tuning

Aymara - 11-4-2009 at 04:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

This is a Turkish tuning

I had the suspicion, but wasn't quite sure.

Fact is they call that the arabic tuning and d' - a - e - B - F# - C# the turkish tuning ... strange.

Seems to be a mistake on their website, but what will be Kürschner's real arabic tuning ... does anybody know?

Sazi - 11-4-2009 at 04:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Fact is they call that the arabic tuning and d' - a - e - B - F# - C# the turkish tuning ... strange.

That is yet another Turkish tuning, the first is apparently used by many Armenian players, the second is common for the Turkish classical repertoire.

There are a number of different tunings for Turkish oud

CAN SOMEBODY HELP ME WHICH GAUGE FOR G & C?

FLIPAX - 11-4-2009 at 07:10 AM

:bowdown:

Shukran Brothers!!!! :bowdown:

BTW Im Tune to Arabic C F A D G C F.

In Kuerschner strings....

Which Gauge/Diameter/Size normally for G & C?

I downloaded the price list in pdf but its kind of confusing on the pdf.

Thanks for helping I Think I can sleep Ok now.

Have anyone ordered from Kuerschner? and Shipped?

How Long did it arrive?

Can Anybody give some prices how much per piece?

God Bless Your Hands Whoever's Playin here In the Forum!!! :applause:

Salamat,

Philip

Kelly - 11-4-2009 at 03:04 PM

Hi Philip

The inch gauges on Kuerschner"arabic" set are roughly as follows: high to low
1st course c= .025": 2nd g=.029 3rd D= .023w A 4th= 0.29w 5th F= .032w 6th C= .039w.

I've only quickly measured 1 set and don't know if there is much variation between sets.

Ordering quite straightforward you just have to know the stock number from pdf file and fill out the box. there is also a section to give more details/requests and you can always email specific questions.
Price per set is 26 Euro for nylon/pv sets and you'll need to ask about the high f''. single course pairs are approx euro 3

I'm using .020 Daddario from Jameel's site for the f'' and its ok.

Happy Hunting

Aymara - 11-4-2009 at 03:04 PM

Hi Philip!

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

Can Anybody give some prices how much per piece?

HERE you'll find the price list of Matthias Wagner, a german luthier ... btw ... "11-saitig" means 11 strings.

But you might also contact Kürschner themself by mail and ask ... a german oud player told me, they are very helpful and fast. The address is HERE.

Oh ... btw ... today I had the chance to give this strings a short test ... very nice.

FLIPAX - 11-4-2009 at 09:11 PM

Thanks KELLY & CHRIS!!

Good Details Definetely Pro's......... :applause:

I will Call or email them ASAP and ask about specific gauges.

BTW hey Chris Goodluck on your new strings!

Tell me what Kuerschner strings sounds. Compare to the other sets you've used?

Shalom my Friends,

Philip :airguitar:

Aymara - 11-4-2009 at 11:19 PM

Good morning!

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

Tell me what Kuerschner strings sounds. Compare to the other sets you've used?

I bet Kelly can answer this question better than I, because yesterday I only had the chance to give a Faruk Türünz oud a short try, which had Kürschner strings. It sounded great and the playability was fantastic (low tension and action), but it was not my oud and I think this is important, because for me it's hard to tell, which part of this great experience belonged to the instrument itself and which to the strings. I think you know, what I mean.

FLIPAX - 11-5-2009 at 03:46 AM

Thanks Aymara! :applause:

I have consulted master faruk turunz about the alternative string thing. He said that pyramid lute rectified nylons trebles are good substitute to PVF trebles.

Did anybody used a Kuerschner and Pyramid lute hear the difference on the nylon trebles?

Anybody? Cheers.....

Maybe because every people has their own style. and each style depends on the EQ of the instrument specially the timbre. some may like an traditional sound or the Iraqi Sound.

Is Kuerschner strings better than pyramid lute string pertaining to the nylon trebles?

Which has more attack? also the tension pertaining to set strings.

Shukran :applause:

Philip

Kelly - 11-5-2009 at 11:10 AM

Hi Philip

In my experience the Kurschner strings once settled in have a good resonance and response. they sound neutral that is to say they are not warm or bassy or either too harsh or bright but rather bring out the sound of the instrument. If you have a newly made oud then you will alo hear subtle changes over the next few months anyway and depending on temp and humidity.

Ive only tried them on one oud so far but my friend Awad has tried them also on a Moussa oud and they sound good.

Tension is on the light side but as I said before you can play them hard and they don't protest but come back for more, the also respond well to light playing too.

Just give them a try and contact Bernd for advise.

Sazi - 11-5-2009 at 03:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

Maybe because every people has their own style. and each style depends on the EQ of the instrument specially the timbre. some may like an traditional sound or the Iraqi Sound.

Philip :airguitar:

That just about sums it up! Though action and scale length etc have an effect too...

You now know that both Pyramid lute strings and kürschner oud strings are good, so the best thing you can do now is try them for yourself! get a set of either and give them enough time to settle, play with them for a while and see how YOU feel about them! If you are not happy you can get a set of the other and try those...

Good luck, and happy ouding

Does Anybody want to add some other Brands?

FLIPAX - 11-5-2009 at 09:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

You now know that both Pyramid lute strings and kürschner oud strings are good, so the best thing you can do now is try them for yourself!

Thanks Sazi! :applause:

I will Try To order Pyramid Lute and kürschner sets. Right Now Im Using LaBella. The Wound Are Really Good sound...

The Trebles Are a Little Bit Dull. Its Rectified Nylon Already :shrug:

Does Anybody want to add some other Brands?

Shukran :bowdown:

Philip

Sazi - 11-5-2009 at 10:52 PM

You could also try Savarez, a French brand of strings, they have a nice bright tone, I'm using them at the moment. (until I get my new Pyramid lute strings).

Personally I find the wound strings accentuate finger noise if you slide, more so than Pyramid wound strings, so I guess it depends on your style of playing...

Although many people use La Bella, I suspect that it's just because they are easy to get. I used them and thought they were fine until I discovered the Pyramid lute strings... There really is no comparison, the improvement in tone and response was immediately noticable. I would not go back to Labella.

But... each to their own

Oh, I just noticed on Matthias' site, you can get rectified PVF/ KF strings too, but I don't know what difference it makes to the sound, sorry.

Aymara - 11-5-2009 at 11:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

Personally I find the wound strings accentuate finger noise if you slide, ...

To avoid this noise guitarists are able to buy wound strings that are grinded. Thomastik-Infeld calls these flatwound compared to the standard roundwound.

Aren't flatwound strings available for oud?

Quote:

..., I suspect that it's just because they are easy to get.

As Pyramid too, but a further reason many players use LaBella might be, that they have a lower tension than Pyramid oud strings. Or am I wrong?

Sazi - 11-6-2009 at 12:21 AM

I think the flat wound tone is more suited to jazz guitar than oud.

And I wasn't referring to Pyramid oud strings, I was referring to Pyramid Lute strings, totally different. And I wish they were easy to get!

Aymara - 11-6-2009 at 12:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

I wasn't referring to Pyramid oud strings, I was referring to Pyramid Lute strings, totally different.

Yes, I know, but I tried to find an answer, why many players use LaBella

FLIPAX - 11-6-2009 at 03:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Yes, I know, but I tried to find an answer, why many players use LaBella

WOW Good Discussion.

I Also personally think that its easy to get. almost some shops has LaBella Strings.

I Cant think of other options why many players use LaBella?

Maybe Its More Cheaper?

But the sound is not very responsive when you play quiet specially on the trebles. Actually when you play quietly it still ok but somewhat the sound becomes round. I don't Know Why. Or Maybe Its Just Me.

So therefore is Pyramid Lute nylon Trebles gives more sharper sound compare to other nylon trebles ?

Because I need that Sharpness even playing quiet.

Thanks Sazi and Aymara! :applause:

Shalom my Friends,

Philip :airguitar:

Aymara - 11-6-2009 at 03:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

I Cant think of other options why many players use LaBella?

I got the impression, that Pyramid oud strings (orange set) are highly available too. Maybe even better than LaBella?

So I thought, there might be more factors to take into account, when trying to answer the question, why so many players use LaBella.

Quote:

Maybe Its More Cheaper?

Khalaf Oud Luthiery in the US sells the Pyramid (orange 11-string arabic oud) set for 14.50$ and LaBella (12-string Egyptian oud set) for 18.50$. So Pyramid is cheaper.

But might the different standard tunings of these sets be an explanation, why LaBella often is prefered? Pyramid is designed for C-F-A-d-g-c and Labella for F-A-d-g-c-f.

PS:

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

I think the flat wound tone is more suited to jazz guitar than oud.

I don't think so. On my 12-string Western guitar I tried both, flatwound and roundwound, same set from the same manufacturer and the flatwound sounded similar brilliant, but the playability was better with much less streaking noise.

Ok, on the 12-string I use steel strings ... would the difference be greater with wound nylon? Would flatwound nylon sound too dull?

Sazi - 11-6-2009 at 05:15 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Ok, on the 12-string I use steel strings ... would the difference be greater with wound nylon? Would flatwound nylon sound too dull?

Apparently not...

413 P Studio - A unique design, the 413P studio set has high-density nylon trebles and polished wound basses. The worlds first noise free classical guitar strings. Our stone grinding process helps eliminate the harsh squeaking when shifting positions or playing a glissando.

From the Labella website. they're not for oud though.

FLIPAX - 11-6-2009 at 05:27 AM

Hey Guys Thanks for the Comments.... :applause:

Can anybody Comment on Savarez Nylon Trebles

One Says the Sound is also Sharper and good attack........

Anybody has Savarez String on their oud?

Thanks :applause:

Philip

Sazi - 11-6-2009 at 05:28 AM

Sorry Philip, I only use the KF trebles from Savarez so I can't help you there.

paulO - 11-6-2009 at 07:57 AM

Hi Philip,

You're going to need to try all these different strings if you want an answer for your specific oud. It takes time and money, and you have a lot of left over strings. I ended up giving all my extras to a classical guitar player. Also, if you need sharpness of sound, you might try some different risha's or re-shape one end of your risha...just something else to play with. Good luck.

Regards..PaulO

Differences between PVF strings

freya - 11-6-2009 at 10:21 AM

I'm posting an excerpt from one of the classical guitar forum's that is no longer available for direct viewing. It points out differences between various "carbon" strings (which by implication seem to be PVF) and suggests Japanese high-end fishing leader as an alternative. I have used the Japanese line on a dozen or so ouds and prefer it, in most cases to nylon or nylgut (though nylgut is a good alternative for certain tonal preferences). I have not had a strings failure yet and have strung one pro player's instrument with it. He shreds a set of wound strings in a few months but the Seaguar shows little wear. I use 0.52mm and 0.66mm for the C and G respectively in Arabic tuning (tension looked reasonable in Arto's calculator). In any case you can read what one classical player concluded...

[QUOTE]

Beyond Nylon: Fluorocarbon
The other important development was the invention by the Japanese chemical company Kureha in the 1970s of fluorocarbon polyfilament fishing line. (The Japanese take fishing very seriously.) This is the same type of material used in the so-called "carbon" strings which are available from Savarez Alliance, Oasis, Galli Carbonio, and other manufacturers. (We speculate that following the freon ban, the chemical companies started researching alternative uses for fluorocarbon compounds.)
Advantages of Fluorocarbon: The advantage over nylon is increased volume and brilliance. There is one additional benefit, which is that fluorocarbon is not as temperature sensitive as nylon. As any working guitarist knows, nylon strings go out of tune when a door is opened, the sun comes out, the wind changes, or the furnace kicks on. A small temperature change affects the solid nylon trebles, which go sharp when the temperature goes up and flat when it drops, while the basses remain at pitch. This can be a real pain during an outdoor gig, or when playing near the door of a restaurant in the wintertime. Fluorocarbon strings are less sensitive in this respect. Both nylon and fluorocarbon are an improvement on gut, which is also sensitive to changes in humidity.

Issues with manufactured fluorocarbon strings: We have tried all three of the brands mentioned above. Savarez Alliance, which was introduced in the 1980's, is still the best of these. We have had various problems with bad intonation and / or delamination of the strings with all of them, which means there's room for improvement. Since the material is a polyfilament, it is possible for fibers to begin to separate from the string and it quickly becomes un-usable. We experimented with Galli and Oasis carbon strings in late 2007 and early 2008.

Galli Carbonios sound very nice for a very short time, but delaminate quickly (the high E string went after only 4 hours of use in our second trial); they are not (yet) reliable enough for professional use.

Oasis Carbon strings are not uniform and so the intonation is poor, and they also suffer from delamination (after 3 weeks of use in our trial).

Until recently, Savarez Alliance was our string of choice, notwithstanding the cost — almost twice that of nylon — and the fact that the high E strings are frequently irregular in diameter. Savarez will also show the same type of delamination eventually, but never (in our experience) in less than five weeks, which is a reasonable amount of time for a string to last. The occasional irregular high E string is a definite bummer which means discarding the entire set. (But read more, below, for a new solution to this problem!) Also, the treble strings have excessive high overtones, and on some guitars, particularly spruce tops, they have a kind of "pingy" quality. In spite of these issues, we have used Savarez Alliance off and on, with various guitars, for about 20 years.

Hannabach also makes a "carbon" string, but we haven't tried it yet.

A New Source:
Thanks to a tip from a helpful poster on the Delcamp guitar forum, we found fluorocarbon fishing leader made by Kureha's subsidiary Seaguar, which is readily available from fishing supply stores online in 25 meter reels and in a variety of diameters. We ordered six reels in the most likely diameters, based on calculations of the density / diameter / pitch / tension equation, using an online string tension calculator for estimates. We received the order in early May 2008 and at this writing have been using the strings for one month with excellent results. Of course these are only treble strings! (We bought some sets of Hannabach basses to use with them from Strings and Beyond for $5 USD per set, which we are perfectly happy with.) For the first two weeks we used a low tension set, and then changed to higher tension (more about tensions and gauges below).

The Seaguar strings are loud but well-balanced, and lack the "pingy" quality which the Savarez Alliance has. They are very temperature stable; we just played an outdoor gig where the sun moved and we found ourselves playing in full sun after starting in the shade, and (amazingly!) there was almost no change in the pitch. At this writing, we have had the high tension Seaguar strings on our guitars for one month, with no intonation troubles and no sign of delamination.

Also, consider this: we have a 25 meter roll of this material for each of the treble strings. We can easily decide to just change one string without worrying about breaking a packaged set — just unroll another one off the roll!

Fluorocarbon is a little more slippery than nylon, so we have found that it pays to melt the string end into a little ball at the bridge end to keep the knot from slipping.
About Gauges and Tensions:
We are using 650 mm scale length guitars. We bought 6 gauges of Seaguar fishing leader: .47mm, .52mm, .62mm, .66mm, .74mm, and .91mm. These are the gauges that we found available within the likely range of diameters suited for guitar strings. (You can try to use "pounds test" figures for guidance, but diameter measurements are more useful. Some fishing supply websites give diameters, in either thousandths of an inch, millimeters to 2 decimals, or both, and others give only the "pounds test" figures.) As it turns out, we can get a light gauge set and a heavy gauge set from these, as follows:
Light Gauge Set of Seaguar Trebles:
• Seaguar .47mm E string = 5.816 kg tension
• Seaguar .62mm B string = 5.68 kg
• Seaguar .74mm G string = 5.098 kg
Heavy Gauge Set of Seaguar Trebles:
• Seaguar .52mm E string = 7.12 kg tension
• Seaguar .66mm B string = 6.437 kg
• Seaguar .91mm G string = 7.709 kg

We started cautiously with the light gauge set. They sounded very good, and were very easy to play and very responsive, but after two weekends of gigs, we decided they didn't have quite enough punch and so we switched to the higher tension. We've now been playing on those for four solid weeks and they are still going strong. We'll update this page with a fresh report when we find it necessary to change them.

If you want to experiment cautiously, try buying just a spool of .52mm (35 pound test) line for your high E string (about $16 USD). You can replace the E string on a set of Savarez Alliance (or any other brand of string, for that matter) with the Seaguar E string and see if you like it.
Our Online Source for Seaguar Strings:
We ordered online from Fish307.com — the online Fishing Tackle Superstore in New York State in the United States. Here's the direct link to Seaguar fishing leader.

The cost of these strings averages out, with shipping, to about $3.50 USD a set of trebles, with the high tension G string being the most expensive at about $30 a 25-meter reel, the others less.
http://www.guitar-vacation-retreats.com/resources/fluorocarbon_stri...
http://oasishumidifiers.com/carbon_strings.html
http://www.delcamp.net/forum/en/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=27823&...

[END QUOTE]

FLIPAX - 11-6-2009 at 01:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by freya

I use 0.52mm and 0.66mm for the C and G respectively in Arabic tuning (tension looked reasonable in Arto's calculator).

Thanks Freya! :bowdown:

Does all here used the same gauge on C & G?

Is .52mm= C, .66mm=G is Standard? Light or Normal Tensions...

BTW Kelly said this Regarding Pyramid Orange Vs kurschner nylon trebles

Pyramids-orange label nylon by way of comparison.( I'm not aware that they do nylgut.) I find them a little heavy and dull- not as responsive generally as the Kurschner or Mari.

The kurschner nylon trebles by the way are just newly installed and play with much more response and attack than the Pyramids.

Thanks kelly :buttrock:

for the info.

Im Making A General survey if anyone can HELP!!!

Im looking for a C & G nylon trebles: Which has the lighter feel not tight. and brighter than normal sound. Good alternative to PVF trebles.
Also which you can find in normal sets. not customised gauges.

Please check the List.......

BRAND = ?
High & Low Tensions = ?
Nylon Treble Sound = ?

Examples: Good Brands That I have Used so far.

BRANDS:

1. Pyramid
Orange Sets

HIGH & LOW TENSIONS
Nice Loose Feel on
the Bottom I thinks its Light in the Top as Well

NYLON TREBLE SOUND
Dull not responsive, Has a round flat sound.

2. Labella

HIGH & LOW TENSIONS
Perfect Balance
Basses not tight or
Loose. Trebles are Quite Normal tension not Light.......

NYLON TREBLE SOUND
Good attack but
Little round Sound
When Played Quietly
Not Long Sustain.

3.????????

4.????????

5.???etc...etc

PLEASE HELP MAKE SURVEY.............

This can also help some people who are looking for a specific sound for strings etc.....etc.....

Shukran :bowdown:

YEAH! GodBless All The Players Here!

Shalom,

Philip :airguitar:

FLIPAX - 11-6-2009 at 01:24 PM

Thanks Again Guys!!!!! :applause:

Salamat,

Philip :airguitar:

Sazi - 11-6-2009 at 03:34 PM

"Fluorocarbon is a little more slippery than nylon, so we have found that it pays to melt the string end into a little ball at the bridge end to keep the knot from slipping. "

Thanks, that's good advice, I've had a few top f's slip out on me in the middle of something... sure breaks the mood of a piece!

FLIPAX - 11-7-2009 at 02:39 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

Thanks, that's good advice, I've had a few top f's slip out on me in the middle of something... sure breaks the mood of a piece!

Yeah!

Its Better to Melt that Nylon end. It happened to me In Pyramid Nylon F's. It always Slips

I also Melt the other end of the strings from the pegbox so it does not slip.

Anybody Can Help On The Survey Of Strings?
Care to comment about the strings your Using now?

Shalom,

Philip :airguitar:

Aymara - 11-9-2009 at 07:11 AM

Hi again,

I have great news about Kürschner strings:

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

I find the mentioned arabic tuning unusual: d' - a - e - B - A - E

This is a Turkish tuning

I had a phone call with Mr. Kürschner and talked about this tuning. He told me, that he has already been informed by other oud players, that this tuning isn't arabic. He plans on updating the web site accordingly.

But now the best news:

I also asked him, what I'll have to pay, if I order a special tuning. He said that depends on the details.

i told him, that I'm currently undecided, if I should order C-F-A-d-g-c (which I currently use) or C-E-A-d-g-c instead. He asked me to fill out the order form on his website as soon as I'm decided, which of this tunings I want to order and he will then manufacture the strings especially for my oud's dimensions and I'll have to pay the same price he has listed for his standard 11-string arabic set on his website.

Isn't that great service? :applause:

So I would recommend to everybody, who is interested in Kürschner strings, to drop Mr. Kürschner an email and ask for details. He's a nice helpful man!

FLIPAX - 11-9-2009 at 01:35 PM

Hey Chris I sent you an U2U man

How Life and Music?

I had a Bad experience Though........ :shrug:

Good to hear That Mr. Kürschner replied.

Have a healthy long Life man!

Cheers,

Philip :airguitar:

Aymara - 11-9-2009 at 02:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

Hey Chris I sent you an U2U man

I already answered

Quote:

How Life and Music?

I make good progress on learning oud and that's much fun ... but I play Europian music ... Rock and Pop ... strange for an oud, but that's exactly, what fascinates me.

Quote:

I had a Bad experience Though........ :shrug:

Show us a photo in the forum and I bet the gurus will tell you, that it's nothing to really worry about.

Best wishes!

FLIPAX - 11-10-2009 at 12:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

I make good progress on learning oud and that's much fun

Nice to hear about the progress....

Music should be fun and comes from the Heart, It does not really matter which level you are in.......

Cheers

Philip :airguitar:

Aymara - 11-10-2009 at 01:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

It does not really matter which level you are in...

My girlfriend doesn't cry and listens when I play ... a good sign, I think

FLIPAX - 11-10-2009 at 01:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

My girlfriend doesn't cry and listens when I play ... a good sign, I think

Good thing...

BTW how's Your String Thing Question Addario Set?

Did u Change it Already?

Philip

Aymara - 11-10-2009 at 01:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

Did u Change it Already?

No, I'll order Kürschner strings tomorrow ... I wasn't quite shure about the tuning yesterday, but I decided to stay with C-F-A-d-g-c ... and if I should like to use the E instead of F some day, I can easily downtune that single course ... it's just a half tone, so the tension loss is minimal.

Regarding D'Addario ... this set isn't harmful for my oud as it seems, because my string length is only 59cm. But though the wounded strings are ok, the two blank nylon courses are not that crisp in sound as I would like them.

I'll switch to Kürschner PVF, which are far better than D'Addario.

Better sound, more fun

FLIPAX - 11-11-2009 at 04:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

I wasn't quite shure about the tuning yesterday, but I decided to stay with C-F-A-d-g-c ...

Its the most versatile Tuning known to Mankind

LOL!

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

... and if I should like to use the E instead of F some day, I can easily downtune that single course ... it's just a half tone, so the tension loss is minimal.

The F = One Strings is Awesome so and its easy to change from F to E or Vise-verse

But for me I use F down to D and C sometimes depending on the makam. and also the String Tension Capacity.

Cheer mate!

Philip :airguitar:

P:S:

Any more Suggestions Regarding PVF Strings? Other Alternative Brands?

Aymara - 11-11-2009 at 04:46 AM

Hi Philip!

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

Its the most versatile Tuning known to Mankind

LOL!

Yes, but there are individual preferences as it seems. Some people tune the F course to E, others to G instead. The later is the tuning used in Pyramids orange set.

Quote:

Any more Suggestions Regarding PVF Strings?

I would expect the PVF trebbles to sound most crisp, so I think the Kürschner strings will be most to your liking. Lute strings have a much warmer, soft sound even on the wounded strings.

But depending on the oud design, PVF trebbles might sound a bit like a flamenco guitar ... which we know well from Naseer Shamma.

Maybe others have different opinions?

But as others said before ... if you want to be shure, which strings are most to your liking, you will try them yourself, because even the best strings will sound slightly different on different ouds.

As I already told you by U2U ... if I were you, I would order Kürschner nylon strings and the PVF trebble courses too, which only costs 6.50€ more. Then you are on the safe side, have very good strings especially made for YOUR oud and you have the chance to compare nylon to PVF for yourself and keep that trebble strings, that you like most.

FLIPAX - 11-11-2009 at 05:03 AM

Thanks Always Chris! :applause:

Your The Man! :bowdown:

Thanks Again for the Enlightenment!

Philip :airguitar:

Brian Prunka - 11-11-2009 at 08:08 PM

Quote:

We have had various problems with bad intonation and / or delamination of the strings with all of them, which means there's room for improvement. Since the material is a polyfilament, it is possible for fibers to begin to separate from the string and it quickly becomes un-usable. We experimented with Galli and Oasis carbon strings in late 2007 and early 2008.

Galli Carbonios sound very nice for a very short time, but delaminate quickly (the high E string went after only 4 hours of use in our second trial); they are not (yet) reliable enough for professional use.

This is exactly the problem I had when I tried PVF strings, they would fall apart after 1 day of playing!

So far, my favorite treble strings are D'addario rectified nylon. They're not the same as what comes in the 'oud' set. The Pyramid nylon strings are rectified, too, but have a slightly less focused sound to my ears.
.024 and .028 are the gauges I use. Depends on the oud, though.

ameer - 11-11-2009 at 08:42 PM

I use .024 and .029 D'addarios myself, though I'm thinking of bringing the first course down to a .023 for a somewhat more consistent tension next time I swap strings. I also want to give Aquilas another shot... this truely calls for a second oud.

Aymara - 11-12-2009 at 12:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Very interesting, because I like on the D'Addario set the wounded strings, but find the nylons a bit flat sounding. And I didn't know of the short life of PVF strings.

Sazi - 11-12-2009 at 01:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

This is exactly the problem I had when I tried PVF strings, they would fall apart after 1 day of playing!

... And I didn't know of the short life of PVF strings.

Neither did I and I use Savarez PVF, but the amount of playing my oud gets I change them every couple of months, I've (touch oud) never had a string de-laminate yet... maybe they've improved in the last year or so?

FLIPAX - 11-12-2009 at 10:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

This is exactly the problem I had when I tried PVF strings, they would fall apart after 1 day of playing!

Thanks Brian! :applause:

Lovely Site though! :buttrock:

Good Information and Practice Notes Sheets!

Can anybody comment with thier PVF String Life Span?

Thanks Again,

Philip :airguitar:

P:S:

BTW Sazi whats the diameter gauges of your PVF Trebles?

Sazi - 11-12-2009 at 02:09 PM

I don't think the guages I use will be relevant to you as all my ouds are floating bridge, but I started with ff's .0525 & cc's .0625

and changed them to ff's .041 cc's .052 as they felt too tight.

good luck, S

Brian Prunka - 11-12-2009 at 05:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Very interesting, because I like on the D'Addario set the wounded strings, but find the nylons a bit flat sounding. And I didn't know of the short life of PVF strings.

I don't like the standard D'addario nylons, either. As I said, the rectified nylon strings are different.

katakofka - 11-12-2009 at 05:41 PM

for ouds having 61-62 cm stringlength the Pyramid oud strings are okay
http://www.khalafoud.com/pyramidstrings.htm
much cheaper as compared to the pyramid lute strings

Aymara - 11-13-2009 at 01:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by katakofka

for ouds having 61-62 cm stringlength the Pyramid oud strings are okay

When I see, how common these strings are and how many players/luthiers use them, I would expect them to be better than just "ok"?

FLIPAX - 11-13-2009 at 02:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

I would expect them to be better than just "ok"?

Yup

I've Used Normal Pyramid Orange Sets. It has a Low Tension almost same as Daniel Mari Strings.

But the Pyramid Orange Trebles are not that dynamic and sounds flat to me. Maybe Its Just me!

Anymore String sets? Nylgut or Rectified? Which is Better for you guys?

Shoukran

Philip :airguitar:

Aymara - 11-13-2009 at 02:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

Nylgut or Rectified?

As far as I know, nylgut trebbles detune faster as nylon, because they are not only temperature sensitive, but also to humidity.

But maybe someone can report personal experience?

Sazi - 11-13-2009 at 03:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

Nylgut or Rectified?

As far as I know, nylgut trebbles detune faster as nylon, because they are not only temperature sensitive, but also to humidity.

But maybe someone can report personal experience?

They (Nylgut) absorb 1/6th of the moisture that nylon does, so should be more stable.

This link will tell you probably more than you ever wanted to know about the properties of nylgut

http://www.geocities.jp/shinfuji_jp/genkonjaku3_E.html

FLIPAX - 11-13-2009 at 04:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

They (Nylgut) absorb 1/6th of the moisture that nylon does, so should be more stable.

Thanks Sazi! :applause:

I'm Sure To Read This Page! :buttrock:

Thanks Bro!

Ill Tell You Later What I Think About This!

Philip :airguitar:

FLIPAX - 11-17-2009 at 11:46 AM

Anybody Using Thomastik-Infeld Strings Here?

I've Read some Threads Ghassan Bashir Uses It and Afif swears the this is the only one he uses.

How's the sound of this strings?

I've Noticed they say that the g string is only one string and its very fat compare to normal diameter of an g string...

Anybody else has experience this String Sets? :shrug:

Please Let me Know.

Cheers

Flip :airguitar:

Aymara - 11-17-2009 at 12:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

I've Noticed they say that the g string is only one string ...

No, but it's usually only a 5 courses set. Look HERE, how German luthier Matthias Wagner describes them:

Quote:

The treble strings are plain and are manufactured from specially treated synthetic material. The low strings have a multi-strand synthetic core and are wound with finest copper-silver wire. The third string can be supplied either plain or wound. The string's undamped resonance is long and rich. Its strong higher partials give the player advantages in all registers. The overall sound is well balanced and smooth, and the strings are durable, having proven their consistency in every musical situation. We supply aoud strings in pairs. Available in light - medium - high tension.

HERE he describes the tension of the medium tension set for a string length of 62cm. And at the bottom of this page he describes, that a deep single F-string (TH-318_CR43) is available optionally. BTW ... this set has a pair of wound d-strings.

Though I don't know how good their oud set is, I can tell you that I use Thomastik-Infeld strings on my 12-string guitar since nearly 20 years and I will never again use other strings ... it's the Plectrum extra fine set.

So I'm in your boat too and would be pleased to here experiences about Thomastik oud strings.

FLIPAX - 11-17-2009 at 12:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

So I'm in your boat too and would be pleased to here experiences about Thomastik oud strings.

Same Here......

Hopefully someone will drop the ball and say:

Thomastik is the only set I Use.... then Bam! :xtreme:

More Set of Problems to think about. woot!

Flip

Aymara - 11-17-2009 at 12:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

Thomastik is the only set I Use.... then Bam! :xtreme:

So far I didn't read a single report about these strings, though I expect them to be nice, because Thomastik has a good reputation.

Brian Prunka - 11-17-2009 at 06:00 PM

I only use Thomastik strings on my guitar, but I didn't particularly like their oud strings. I didn't dislike them really, but they didn't stand out. Maybe I'll give them another go.

FLIPAX - 11-18-2009 at 02:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

I didn't dislike them really, but they didn't stand out.

Hi Brian!

Thanks for Stopping By...... :applause:

Can u please elaborate why Thomastik-Infeld Sets didn't Stand Out as what you've expected?

Thanks Man! :xtreme:

Aymara - 11-18-2009 at 02:56 AM

Hi Brian!

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

I only use Thomastik strings on my guitar, but I didn't particularly like their oud strings.

On my 12-string guitar I tested the medium tension Thomastik Plectrum 12-string set and found them horrible, because though the sound was great, the playability was not ... "a finger breaker" as we would call that in Germany.

But the same set in minimum tension (extra fine) is absolutely great ... the same brilliant sound, but also a fantastic playability, which even convinced guitarists, who already had given up trying 12-string guitar. After trying my guitar, they wanted to give the 12-string a further try.

I tell all this, because I would guess, that it might be similar with their oud strings ... did you try the light tension set?

On the other hand ... only because I have a good experience with their steel guitar strings, doesn't mean, their oud nylon strings are good too. But as far as I know, Thomastik violin strings have a good reputation too. So, who knows.

Brian Prunka - 11-18-2009 at 07:44 AM

Yes, they have a great reputation for double bass strings as well. I use them on electric guitar. I've tried their nylon classical guitar strings, which were unexceptional (on my guitar, anyway).
I can't really elaborate on my experience with their oud strings, since it was quite a while ago. As I said, I need to try them again sometime.

To date, the pyramid lute strings stand out for me as sounding and feeling great to play on.
Other strings have done more or less well on different ouds. I've tried D'addario, Labella, Pyramid (orange label), Daniel Mari, Thomastik.
I tried Aquila early on (didn't like them), but not since they recalibrated the gauges for lighter tension. I found the tuning to be unstable and the life of the strings to be short. But I expect they're better now since that was years ago and they've made some changes since then.
I haven't tried the Savarez strings yet. I'd like to try Hannabach, but they've been even more expensive than Pyramid last time I checked.

I like the low C in the D'addario set. I like the Pyramid set.
Labella is OK but not great. I've got Mari strings on one of my ouds now and they sound pretty good. I haven't tried Thomastik in a while, I thought they were OK. A lot depends on the characteristics of the particular oud.

Aymara - 11-18-2009 at 08:03 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

I like the low C in the D'addario set.

Yeeees, that's deep, but clear and brilliant, the deep F too. But I'm not that satisfied with the trebble strings ... I currently play them on my oud. I'm planing to switch to Kuerschner.

Quote:

A lot depends on the characteristics of the particular oud.

Oooh yes, I think we should keep that always in mind, when comparing strings, be it sound quality or playability.

And a lot depends on personal taste.

Brian Prunka - 11-18-2009 at 09:30 AM

I'm not sure how much the kurschner strings cost, but you can try out the D'addario rectified pretty inexpensively from Jameel's Khalaf site:

Khalaf Oud Lutherie: D'addario Strings

the strings are $1.10 each, so a set for the 1st two courses would be $4.40. I don't know if Jameel ships to Germany, but I'm sure you can get them there as well from another source. I highly recommend you give them a try.

Aymara - 11-18-2009 at 09:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

I don't know if Jameel ships to Germany, but I'm sure you can get them there as well from another source.

Yes, it should be possible to order them from German dealer. Thanks for the tip, I'll keep that in mind.

But I'm tempted to try Kuerschner first ... I had a chance for a short test on the Faruk Turunz oud of an oud player in Germany and I was very impressed.

Sazi - 11-18-2009 at 02:50 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

I tried Aquila early on (didn't like them), ... I found the tuning to be unstable and the life of the strings to be short.

I have had the same experience enough times now to not waste my time and money with them again...

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

But I expect they're better now since that was years ago and they've made some changes since then.

I don't think so, only 2 weeks ago a friend ripped his off in disgust, in favor of laBella's (he prefers Küerschner)

Cheers, S

FLIPAX - 11-19-2009 at 05:41 AM

Thanks Guys!! :applause:

Nice To hear about Aquila and Daddario Strings........

Which Lower bass C string set has a powerful sound in your opinions?

Pyramid Lute or Daddario's, Aquila's, Labella?

Coz Sometimes I Tune My Low C to B or A to get a lower octave tonic.

Thanks :applause:

Just wondering.......

Flip :airguitar:

Aymara - 11-19-2009 at 12:22 PM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

Coz Sometimes I Tune My Low C to B or A to get a lower octave tonic.

In this case I would use custom strings designed for that tuning and not a standard set ... a downtuned C sounds dull ... B might be ok, but A ... uaaah :shrug:

MatthewW - 11-19-2009 at 12:40 PM

greetings everyone- I'm a bit curious, with all these posts on strings and more strings and still more strings, I wonder what strings the legendary players like Farido and Sunbati were using? Do you think they could pick up any oud with any strings and still sound good?

cheers MW

Ararat66 - 11-19-2009 at 12:53 PM

I've put on Kurschner high tension Turkish set and the sound is amazing ... but the strings feel 'hard' so tremelo is difficult and my tremelo isn't the best to say the least

So I'm keeping em on to improve my tremelo - I'm into really cracking this and it may help

I wonder if there is a lower tension Turkish set in Kurschner.

Leon

Aymara - 11-19-2009 at 01:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MatthewW

I wonder what strings the legendary players like Farido and Sunbati were using?

Interesting question.

Quote:

Do you think they could pick up any oud with any strings and still sound good?

All professionals might sound good even on a cheap oud with medium quality strings, but with a good oud and good strings they sound even better.

For me as a beginner a better sound means better motivation.

Quote: Originally posted by Ararat66

I wonder if there is a lower tension Turkish set in Kurschner.

Yes ... if you order directly from Kuerschner you can give them the dimensions of your oud and string length and they manufacture to your desired tension and tuning. As long as you order the same number of strings as in the standard set, the set price doesn't change ... around 35 Euro without shipping.

PS: Maybe drop them an email and ask for details.

FLIPAX - 12-3-2009 at 05:29 PM

HI All here in the Forum! :wavey:

Does any can comment on the PVF string from Hank Levin?

http://www.Musicaravan.com

kindest appreciations

Philip :airguitar: