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Thoughts & questions about fixed bridges

Aymara - 11-13-2009 at 01:51 AM

Hi everybody,

I always wondered, why the fixed bridges of ouds are so different as the ones used on accoustic guitars.

But then I saw FLIPAX Shehata oud and ... bingo ... a fixed bridge in accoustic guitar design (with a saddle) :applause:

I think the advantages are obvious:

1. It's possible to use a bridge pickup, that is built-in to the saddle ... the saddle will be exchanged against the pickup. I have such a pickup in my Western guitar and it's absolutely great sounding (nearly like a good microphone) and it's invisible.

2. If no pickup is used, the saddle could be built exchangeable (drop-in saddle), so that the action of the strings would be adjustable to the tension by exchanging the saddle or shortening it's height ... as low as possible without buzzing.

PS: On guitars the action is even adjustable with a pickup ... look HERE.

And now the big question:

Why do accoustic guitar bridges have wings (the wood left and right of the saddle) and oud bridges do not? As far as I know, these wings are very important for the guitar's sound.

Does anybody know that?

FLIPAX - 11-13-2009 at 02:16 AM

Yeah :xtreme:

Actually its nice because I have A Bone as A Saddle so it give a nice attack on sound of the strings.

I still Get a Good Attack because of the bone saddles.
its Just My labella trebles are a Bit dull and Flat sounding.

And The Pick-up is Located Under it.

I can All make my action Low By Just Sanding the bone. Take It Out And Sand The Bottom.

Quite nice actually...

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Why do accoustic guitar bridges have wings (the wood left and right of the saddle) and oud bridges do not? As far as I know, these wings are very important for the guitar's sound.

I didn't Quite got the Question. Can U give examples of the left and Right Wings that Your Talking about.

Maybe A picture.

Thanks Chris

Philip :airguitar:

Aymara - 11-13-2009 at 02:20 AM

Hi Philip,

you lucky guy with the "saddle bridge"

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

Maybe A picture.

HERE we go ... where you can see, that the bridge is streched by wood wings left and right of the saddle (not inserted in this images), which widens the whole bridge to around the double width compared to a fixed oud bridge design.

Sazi - 11-13-2009 at 03:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

the bridge is streched by wood wings left and right of the saddle (not inserted in this images), which widens the whole bridge to around the double width compared to a fixed oud bridge design.

Probably because the guitar bridge has to hold up to much higher tension than oud bridge and so needs more gluing area.

I guess...

fernandraynaud - 11-13-2009 at 05:22 AM

Regarding the last question, Chris, it's probably as Sazi says, but as to your other questions, the answer is: because it's an oud, and we like ouds.

Although modern technology makes nice shiny things, there are lots of subtle aspects to the oud's sound, and much of the design is smart and deliberate, and not because oud players barely descended from the trees, scratching their behinds with a bewildered look, and plucking instruments made of coconuts with feathers.

There will be lots of experiments with new materials, like layered soundboards, some will work out, most will not. But the guitar's development has run a long course too, and produced a different instrument. Why would you want a hybrid? A saddle gives a different sound from the traditional string-loop-pulling-on-bridge. A floating bridge already sounds very different, more guitar-like, and personally I think it loses more than it gains. It is in fact not that easy to obtain the old Arabian timbre, the vintage ouds are respected and valued, and you come along with "why doesn't the oud have a saddle"?

Sazi - 11-13-2009 at 05:41 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

descended from the trees, scratching their behinds with a bewildered look, and plucking instruments made of coconuts with feathers.

Hmmm, sounds like some people I know

Aymara - 11-13-2009 at 10:03 AM

Hi again!

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

Probably because the guitar bridge has to hold up to much higher tension ...

Seems logical, but why then is the bridge on my 12-string western guitar less wide than on classic or flamenco guitars, which only have 6-strings?

Tension might be one aspect, but as it seems not the only one.

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Why would you want a hybrid?

Oh, interesting ... Philip (Flipax) might be interested, that Mr. Shehata didn't build an oud for him, but an oud-guitar hybrid

Quote:

A saddle gives a different sound from the traditional string-loop-pulling-on-bridge.

Then Philip should notice, that his oud sounds noticable different, than any other oud. Sorry, I doubt that.

FLIPAX - 11-13-2009 at 12:53 PM

Hey Guys Welcome! :wavey:

Chris whats up? :rolleyes:

What did I miss?

And what do you mean By your comment?

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Then Philip should notice, that his oud sounds noticable different, than any other oud. Sorry, I doubt that.

Thanks

Philip :airguitar:

Aymara - 11-13-2009 at 01:03 PM

Hi Philip!

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

And what do you mean By your comment?

I was just a bit sarcastic

In other words ... I bet your oud doesn't sound much different (acoustically, without using the pickup) to similar ouds (same design), which have a standard fixed bridge.

Or does it sound different, because the bridge has a saddle?

Nobody can answer this question better than you.

FLIPAX - 11-13-2009 at 02:08 PM

Hi again! :wavey:

Regarding the wings Chris, I think It contributes on the tone.

I'm Taking consideration of a floating bridge for example.

Can u see sometimes the width of it. They are Not All same.
Because the Wider the wings the sound Changes it becomes a little warmer pehaps an add midrange. Vise Versa. Etc

I have Tried Mr Shehata's Floating Bridge. The Have Longer Wings and its sounds more balance for me.

Also You can ask ALAMI he knows about these.

He's Obsessed On Iraqi Oud's. One Thing he said that can be a disadvantage on a smaller width that it's prone to soundboard cracks because the pressure is focused on a limited spot and the soundboard hold's it pretty good in a wider bridge length.

But on a fixed bridge, It's very subtle.

Maybe I'm Wrong or Right. But Definetely It has A Lot to do with the Overall EQ sound of the Instrument.

And Regarding my Bridge that has a saddle Bone all I can say is:

I'm the One Who ask Him To Make me a Bridge special for a pickup. Coz normally before he put the transducer underneath the bridge but this is inside the bridge itself. It gets more Sound from Strings.

This is Actually a new design. I'm maybe the first one he tried the prototype. Because I remember when He was almost finishing the Oud. And Im Really excited and I wanted him to ship Fast to me, then he said that he still needs time to check about the sound of the new designed bridge.

I already Know that my oud will sound Slightly Different Because of the Bridge Design.
Which is Cool First Time! woot!

Nevertheless Sucessfull Sound!

BTW Mr Maurice Built 3 Oud's For Me and this the only one that came Close to what I want! Imagine That!

I'm Lucky to Maybe First have the Design or Whatever...
For me it not a big issue.

Just Play It And Enjoy Man! Life is too Short. We may not know maybe tomorrow, next day, month, next year were cut off from this life we have!

"Always remember in Whatever we do,
Do it all in his Glory."
AMEN

Enjoy Whatever You Have Guys!

Godbless U all,

Philip :airguitar:

Aymara - 11-13-2009 at 02:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

I'm Taking consideration of a floating bridge for example.

Very interesting comparison ... thanks for the hint.

Quote:

This is Actually a new design.

I thought so and I find it revolutionary ... not only in combination with a pickup, but I already told that

Quote:

I already Know that my oud will sound Slightly Different Because of the Bridge Design.

How would you discribe the difference ... do most strings have more attack?

But I think the difference isn't that huge, that we can talk about your oud being a hybrid between oud and guitar, what FernandRaynaud indicated.

Quote:

Just Play It And Enjoy Man!

Shure, but not at this time of day ... maybe my next oud should be electric, so I can play with headphones at night

FLIPAX - 11-13-2009 at 02:36 PM

Actually The One Difference I hear is.....

When I hit the strings hard you get a nice small glass shatter sound. I think because of the bone. Nice Sound!

But When I Play very soft. I mean Very Very Soft It's Kind Of Round..

Its About weird. LOL
Because normally Other People Like This Sound and my nylons sounds really balance warm and old school arabic sound. Nice Also.

The Only reason Why I want to change string is because I play a lot of soft picking with a Very very light right hand to get the subtle sound.

Wound Strings Are Amazing! No Problem for me Any String Sets!

So I need I very Good Dynamic Nylon Trebles that you can hear the difference if I play A fraction of a Volume Louder or softer!

Like Anouar brahem he Know's how to control his Dynamics!

Which I hear A lot...

Cheers Anouar Brahem!

Shalom,

Philip :airguitar:

Aymara - 11-13-2009 at 02:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

When I hit the strings hard you get a nice small glass shatter sound.

Ok, you that now the time is right for an example sound file or video?

Thanks for the detailled explanation!

FLIPAX - 11-13-2009 at 03:54 PM

OOPPS

I May Be exagerating A LIttle Bit!

Sorry I'm Not that good yet to play for you.

Its Hard to describe that Little POP sound that it creates.

I sometimes get that sound but not always.

It's Something to do on the angle of your risha and how it lands and Strike the String.

When U pluck the strings your kind off moving your Risha downward away from the string sets and my right hand slightly slides on the soundboard.

Thanks again my Friend,

I'm Not that Brave Yet To have sound File.
Hope You Understand.

In A Weeks Time

Hopefully In Shallah,

Philip :airguitar:

P:S:
I'm Hoping to get some lessons from Dubai244(Ghazi)
He also lives Here in Dubai. I already call him the other night.

Aymara - 11-14-2009 at 12:29 AM

Good morning!

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

Sorry I'm Not that good yet to play for you.

Philip, you don't need to give a virtual concert

... single notes will be enough to demonstrate the difference, I think.

But let's have a look, what Alioud said HERE (5th posting) about floating bridges:

Quote:

Bone on top of the bridge generally produce clarity and crispiness, but your bases, sustain, and echo might suffer.

And I want to come back one last time to FernandRaynaud's argumentation ... this time without sarcasm:

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

There will be lots of experiments with new materials, like layered soundboards, some will work out, most will not.

Yes, but why not think about possible improvements. Tony remember, what you told me about Sukar ouds, that Mr. Sukar seems to be more an engineer than a carpenter and that exactly this fact made his development of an adjustable neck possible. And I remember, that you were very happy to have such a neck.

BTW ... Fadi Mata also produces necks, that have a mechanism to adjust the strings action ... look HERE.

Usually ouds don't have such necks, but most guitars have it. Do Mr. Mata and Mr. Sukar build oud-guitar hybrids for this reason?

And do overdraw my argumentation ... if we wouldn't be interested to improve this historic instrument, we would still play an oud with 7 frets and 4 courses tuned to E-A-d-g

To make a long story short ... it's all a matter of personal preference and availability.

Quote:

A floating bridge already sounds very different, more guitar-like, and personally I think it loses more than it gains.

Floating bridge is the key word ... the fixed bridge with saddle creates not an oud-guitar hybrid, but as it seems a hybrid of floating bridge and fixed bridge ... regarding sound characteristics.

And as I already told you by U2U some days ago, I noticed by comparing ouds on Youtube, that not all floating bridge ouds have that flamenco like trebbles we know from Naseer Shamma. Ali's floating bridge explanations (see link above) are an approach to declare the huge differences. But I think string choice an scale length also play an important role here.

fernandraynaud - 11-14-2009 at 07:41 AM

Chris, I did not say that adding a saddle makes a guitar-oud. I did say I expected that to give a different timbre. And I asked generally whether you wanted a hybrid. I don't.

The reason I don't is because it's already hard enough to capture the classical oud timbre, and I have barely tasted it. It's most of all about the timbre of the traditional instrument. Maybe in many years, after I've experienced a LOT of vintage ouds, I might have interest in such experiments, today I prefer sticking a piezo on the soundboard rather than adding a saddle to the bridge.

The neck bolt in Sukar's design that you mention is a very modest and sensible change that I don't expect to affect the timbre. The neck is still stiffly attached. A truss rod would be silly, warping is not the issue, as it is on a guitar. I wouldn't consider it a serious sacrilege to put planetary pegs on an oud, but if an oud is hard to tune, I don't think it matters. If I were playing live concerts, planetary pegs might become quite important.

Right now we have 3 very distinct families, the Arabian, the Turkish and the floating-bridge Iraqi. Each of these is very different. You haven't even played a couple of each. And there are subtypes, and each instrument is in addition unique. I generally don't like the sound of Turkish or Floating Bridge ouds, the Turkish are too nasal, and the Bashirs are too tinny. I prefer long scale, fixed bridge ouds with tied strings, big bowls, the old style Arabian oud.

The natural tendency is for everything to melt together, 2nd law of thermodynamics, you know. There are areas where I respect, hope for, and even expect, a certain purity. The guitar went one way, and the oud went another way, and it's fine with me. Maybe I even feel protective about the old instruments because in time they may disappear. Put on machine tuners and and a guitar bridge, and frets and magnetic strings and pickups, and lengthen the neck, and make the bowl flat, and add an MP3 player and a satellite dish and a toilet. Not for me.

Aymara - 11-14-2009 at 08:19 AM

Hi again!

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

... and a toilet.

Mmh ... how about a waterproof bowl ... lol

Ok, serious again ... I understand what you mean, especially, that a historic instrument might vanish over time.

But I see all this more optimistic ... more diversity bears chances to realize individual preferences.

"Every coin has two sides" ... as we say in Germany