Mike's Oud Forums

frustration from inconsistent NYLONS

Edward Powell - 11-13-2009 at 02:46 AM

Hi Friends.

As you know I just finished building a new oud-hybrid instrument... and the oud is configured very close to a Turkish oud, with 58.5cm string length and low action - and bracing similar to Turk style --- BUT I am using a floating bridge.

Now, all is sounding really good, except the second nylon (NEVA string). I can't figure out why. It does not sound bad, but it is not fully responding.

In fact it sounds like it is also rattling against the fingerboard... but this is strange because FARUK'S ouds often also use VERY low action and sound great on all strings... why should it be that just this second nylon is rattling and not responding.

It is not a problem with the nut or saddle --- I even raised the action and it still sounds weak.

I am using normal PYRAMID oud strings which I bought in cairo. I think they are meant for arab oud tuning and are perhaps too heavy for turkish tuning. It seems like this second nylon is pretty thick..... MY GUESS IS THAT A HARDER MATERIAL (PVF?) AND A THINNER STRING CAN REALLY HELP.

Actually I have never done much experimentation with comparing nylons... and I wonder if anyone has had similar troubles and managed to find a different string to solve this problem?

- - -

on a slightly different but related note- on other instruments I have had similar problems with the TOP nylon (when you go for 3 pairs of nylons). On some ouds those top nylons just sing (floater iraqi ouds for example) --- but on other ouds there really seems to be nothing we can do to get them to resonate properly - - - I'm totally stumped on this one :shrug:

Aymara - 11-13-2009 at 03:03 AM

Hi Edward,

did you read FLIPAX's trebble string thread? That should help, I think.

Edward Powell - 11-13-2009 at 03:37 AM

well probably PVF is what I need, because at the moment the neva strings have no attack and are dull sounding... from what I gather, the PVF strings are the most metalic and still on a "nylon" form?

Can someone suggest where and how it get PVF strings? Actually all I need are the second treble strings (neva - G)... Are they also sold as single classical guitar strings available as singles in shops? ...or do I need to buy a whole set on-line?? I'm a bit confused as to how to get ahold of some of these alternatives quickly and cheaply... thanks!

Aymara - 11-13-2009 at 04:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  
... from what I gather, the PVF strings are the most metalic and still on a "nylon" form?


No ... let's see what Kuerscher has to say ... the wound strings have a nylon core and only the blank strings are nylon or PVF ... it's your choice ... gut strings are also available.

Kuerschner wound strings sound a bit more metallic as Pyramid lute strings for example, but only the wound strings. The blank trebble strings don't have a metallic touch.
Quote:
Can someone suggest where and how it get PVF strings?


You could order only the PVF trebble courses from Kuerschner, if you like, or both PVF and nylon, so you can compare, which you like more. If you drop him an email, you can let him manufacture the strings as you need them ... just tell him the instruments dimensions.

You'll find the prices on the website (PDF in the oud section), but you have to add 19% VAT. Shipping is around 4.50€ inside Germany, but because he sends the strings as a large letter, I don't expect much higher shipping costs to other countries.

BTW ... they also have great guitar strings ;)

Just send a mail and ask for details.

jdowning - 11-13-2009 at 04:59 AM

PVF is a more dense (heavier) material than nylon so PVF strings will be thinner than their nylon equivalent for the same pitch and so should respond better - all else being equal. Their tone and response is similar to gut for the trebles.
You can purchase PVF and other types of strings from Pyramid Strings. They have an online catalogue of their full range. They can advise on string selection. They also sell a handy string calculator slide rule if you want to figure out your own requirements.
To order, they will invoice you on line and I usually pay with an International Money Order sent through the regular mail as I don't think that they accept on-line credit card payment.
They are very efficient with a good customer sales contact (Sabine Holtz).

Edward Powell - 11-13-2009 at 05:55 AM

Yes, I must get the PVF.... that was what faruk was always telling me, that PVF is the best way to go.

fernandraynaud - 11-13-2009 at 06:25 AM

Edward, you can get just the two top courses in PVF for $13 + $5 shipping, they say they outlast several wound strings changes. MusiCaravan sell specifically a package with a pair of 0.020" and a pair of 0.024" (0.52mm and 0.62mm):

Hank Levin/Sales representative for MusiCaravan
P.O. Box 4326
San Rafael, CA 94913-4326
TOLL FREE: 800-799-FREE (799-3733)
TEL: (415) 492-0728
FAX: (415) 499-8441
hank@MusiCaravan.com

http://www.musicaravan.com/strings

Obviously you can disregard the disclaimer about MusiCaravan only outfitting Turkish ouds if you know what you're after.

Edward Powell - 11-13-2009 at 07:05 AM

ok.... cool, seems I am getting on track - THANKS FRIENDS!

So, 0.020" and 0.024" are the guages I need??? actually I HAVE PVF 0.019 AND 0.023 that I bought (actually was give for free by a supplier) in istanbul. I wonder if 19 and 23 (my measuring) is a mistake in measuring, or if turks use a slightly lighter set?

I took out these PFVs and disregarded them because they are SOOOOOOOO much thinner than the normal nylon that I thought I had gerdaniye and tiz cargah strings and had lost the neva pair (G). But mayby these will work after all??

Edward Powell - 11-13-2009 at 09:16 AM

...so, I actually HAVE g, c, PVF strings here.... I put them on, and they didn't improve the tone. Sounds the same.

So as I suspected, the problem is not with string type.

- - -

so what IS the problem??

it can not be a problem with frequency/bracing because the same notes on the very top nylon string are ringing really nicely.

My guess is that it can be a problem with the neck angle. I have the action set really really low to get that nice turkish sound which works really well on all the strings except this second nylon for some reason.... the low buzzing action sounds terrible there. But why does it sound so good on a faruk or ramazan oud?

- - -

I think that what the problem might be is that I did NOT sand the fingerboard surface 100% flat. I gave it an extremely slight "back angle" - the idea being that the string tension will pull the neck forward a bit and then I will be left with a totally flat fingerboard surface.

Normally if you start with a 100% flat surface, then the neck bends forward and you get a dip in the neck half way down (this is guitar theory)... but I think on an oud the neck is so short that there is basically no forward bend of the neck...

so i will try to sand the fingerboard surface absolutely 100% and see if this will get rid of the 'dirty' sound from that 2nd nylon.

jdowning - 11-13-2009 at 12:59 PM

Another way would be not to sand the fingerboard flat but to deliberately shape the fingerboard surface, curving up from neck joint to nut - if the anticipated bending forward of the neck (given time) under string tension does not happen (too much initial set back perhaps?).
This (slight) longitudinal curve of the fingerboard surface is sometimes applied to lutes to give clearance over the frets to eliminate 'buzzing' but should work as well for unfretted instruments.

Edward Powell - 11-13-2009 at 01:42 PM

so you agree that the problem is with the fingerboard and not the string type or possible other factor (I don't know what else it could be: the bridge is sharp and clear contact...)? It seems more and more obvious that it is the fingerboard.

now, I really hestitate to mess with the angle now because ALL the other strings are singing beautifully.... are you suggesting that I begin to slightly tweek the fingerboard on just the area that the second nylon string goes??

I guess I could try slightly sanding down the areas in front of where the buzzing is worst--- and see if this helps open it up? Part of me hestitates to do this because I never have known any oud maker to do this...

as I said, there is now still a "back-angle", but all the other strings seem to LOVE this, so I am afraid that if I sand the FB totally flat I might solve the nylon problem, but lose the sweetness of the other strings...

--the alternative seems to be to just tweek the FB on the 2nd string - which seems pretty unorthedox.

Aymara - 11-13-2009 at 01:51 PM

Just a further thought ...
Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  
But why does it sound so good on a faruk or ramazan oud?


Because they don't use floating bridges? Might the floating bridge play any role here?

I think it's hard to discuss this problem without the chance to hear it ... can you upload a sound file?

Edward Powell - 11-13-2009 at 02:13 PM

very very good point my friend!

and now that i think of it, i had the same problem with the last floating bridge instrument that i made!!!!

you know what might actually be the problem is that string downforce on the soundboard might not be enough?

i mean, this low downward force is probably ALMOST enough, and not showing up on the other strings because the second nylon actually in itself has the LEAST amount of force. I think I am correct in this.

So in fact, the 2nd nylon needs more downward force than the other strings.

I tried solving this by gluing a little extension onto the bridge to raise the string hight on JUST THE 2ND STRING. This raised the 2nd nylon 3mm higher than the other strings..... It didn't really give a good sound, but I guess it would not give a good sound because even though it would solve the downward force issue - it would leave the action TOO HIGH and therefore eliminate all the "nice buzzing" effects.

So, at the moment I am using a 12.5mm high bridge and the bridge is sinking INTO the soundboard (bending the soundboard inwards) 3.5mm --- this means that I have only 9mm REAL HIGHT in relation to the tailpiece.

Now when you say that normal floating bridge hight is about 14mm - and this is on an oud with an outward-bend-soundboard, then that means that on a normal floating bridge oud, there needs to be a REAL BRIDGE HIGHT (in relation to the tailpiece) a full 14mm!!!?

If this is true than probably it means as I now have it set up I do not have enough REAL BRIDGE HIGHT - and therefore am lacking sufficient downward pressure on the soundboard --- which is currently only showing up as a problem with the second nylon.

- - -

So in order to correct this problem I would have to remove the fingerboard again and sand back the neck angle even more - this way I can put a 18mm high bridge on there (assuming a 4mm downward bend on the soundboard), and then I would be left with 14mm REAL BRIDGE HIGHT.... and still good low action (because of sanding back the neck angle).

Does this make sense???

- - -

yes, my intuition tells me it does have something to do with the bridge.

i will try to upload a clip.....

Edward Powell - 11-13-2009 at 02:21 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUUg5GELMbs

Aymara - 11-13-2009 at 02:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  

Does this make sense???


No ;)

Have a look at THIS table, which shows the tension of D'Daddario oud strings depending on tuning and string length.

Downforce might play a role too, ok, but I think the main factor might be a problem with wood resonances caused by a not wide enough bridge ... yes, I think the width and not the height causes this problem.

Have a look at my fixed bridge thread and check out, what Philip (Flipax) said about floating bridges.

Another aspect might be the position of the bridge ... might it be placed to near to a bracing beneath?

PS: No, then it wouldn't sink in that deep into the soundboard, or am I wrong?

A further thought is, that a wider bridge reduces the effect, that the bridge "sinks" into the soundboard ... 3.5mm are too much, don't you think so? That might cause a soundboard damage sometime, I fear.

But hey, I'm not a luthier, just an oud beginner ... so this are just thoughts, but I hope they might help.

Edward Powell - 11-13-2009 at 03:26 PM

I greatly appreciate all intelligent input such as this...

however, although I am a novice in terms of floating bridges - all the floating bridges I recently saw on so many ouds in cairo were as narrow as mine... and they sounded fine.

i am pretty sure it is not a wood resonance problem because the same notes played on the top nylon string are resonating fine.

i think the bracing is in correct position...

i don't think that 3.5mm sink is necessarily a dangerous thing -- have a look at the turkish tanbur, those have MEGA SINK... more than 10mm is my guess.

Actually I have already had to major cracks occur on the soundboard under the bridges - but this is i think because i did not put any bend/radius in to the bracing to create an outward bulge of the soundboard--- if I had done that, then when the soundboard sinks it would not cause the soundboard to also stretch and therefore crack... on the previous version of this same instrument (prototype) i had at least 10mm bridge sink but no cracking soundboard at all because i had put a huge radius into the bracing creating a huge outward bulge.

- - -

what my gut is telling me about this is that the problem is a slight combination of:
1- there needs to be just a bit more downward pressure on the bridge (just a very little bit more --- VERY LITTLE)
2- there is JUST A VERY LITTLE bit too much back angle on the fingerboard...

my guess is that just slightly tweeking just these two things will improve it.

actually, as you probably heard on the clip i posted, the problem is not EXTREME... but it is bad enough to NEED solving....

---now i go look at that bridge thread.

Thanks for your help!

Edward Powell - 11-13-2009 at 03:36 PM

oh i see...

when you said bridge width, you actually were talking about LENGTH!

yes, bridge LENGTH is something I have not considered, and I will now do that!

Aymara - 11-13-2009 at 03:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  

when you said bridge width, you actually were talking about LENGTH!


Sorry for the confusion.
Quote:
yes, bridge LENGTH is something I have not considered, and I will now do that!


Look HERE, what Alioud said about floating bridge design considerations and how they influence the sound.

That might help.

Edward Powell - 11-13-2009 at 04:06 PM

THANKS this helps really a lot!

So, I am going to make a longer bridge, and taper it 4.5 at bass, and 3mm at treble side.

put bone on the top for just the 2nd nylon.

not worry about the downward pressure - probably i have enough already and even more might actually make the problem worse.

---

if this doesn't work I will need to try working more on the neck angle, and/or tweeking the fingerboard.

Aymara - 11-13-2009 at 11:38 PM

Good morning!
Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  
THANKS this helps really a lot!


Thanks, I'm happy I was able to support a pioneer ... I mean your development and improvement of a new instrument.
Quote:
So, I am going to make a longer bridge, and taper it 4.5 at bass, and 3mm at treble side.


Regarding Ali's explanations, that's the way to go. If it doesn't work out as expected, it might be worth a try to make the bridge a little bit thinner for the second course compared to the first.
Quote:
put bone on the top for just the 2nd nylon.


I fear that will overdo it, but it might be nice to do that for both trebble courses.
Quote:
if this doesn't work I will need to try working more on the neck angle, and/or tweeking the fingerboard.


Maybe just check the fingerboard, when the strings are off, to make shure, you didn't oversee something. Maybe a slight unevenness in the area of the second course?

I'm curious, if the bridge improvement will really be the solution.

Edward Powell - 11-14-2009 at 12:59 AM

often in my impatience to fix things i apply 2 solutions at once so never really know WHAT the fix was.

Yes,
1- really check the fingerboard to make sure it is CLEAN.

2- REALLY CHECK NECK ANGLE... something still tells me that this is the REAL problem

3- regardless, making an new bridge will sweeten the trebles, but I still have a feeling that even with the current bridge... there should not be this problem.

...so now I go and apply these solutions one by one, and let you know what happens.

THANKS!

Edward Powell - 11-14-2009 at 10:58 AM

I now have a PFV 2nd nylon, and I sanded the fingerboard only on the 2nd nylon's path - to raise the action just for that string a little bit --- and just this has made a huge improvement... the 2nd string is now starting to really sing.

I really that very slight adjustments to the fingerboard by slightly sanding in certain areas can make huge differences!

I still have not altered the floating bridge at all, and it is nice to know that there are further possibilities there for tweeking the sound.... but all in all I am now feeling like the voicing process is complete for the oud side, and it is really sounding very very satisfactory :-)

Aymara - 11-14-2009 at 11:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  
... the 2nd string is now starting to really sing.


Congrats :applause:

BTW ... are you more satisfied with the PVF than nylon?

I'm going to order Kuerschner strings for my new oud, because I'm a bit disappointed by the current D'Addario nylon's and I'm a bit undecided, if I should order the set with PVF or nylon. I fear, that PVF might sound too flamenco guitar like, because I have the Iraqi oval soundhole concept (but fixed bridge) ... I don't like this Naseer Shamma sound.

Edward Powell - 11-14-2009 at 11:26 AM

it is hard to generalise...

on a pure oud i prefer the standard warm sound... my favorite sound is the old school turkish sound - very fat and warm.

but on my instrument don't forget that the other half is a steel-string sarod/guitar that kicks ass and is really loud, metalic, and piercing --- so the oud needs to compete side-by-side, and therefore the PVFs are my choice...

however now i have PVF on just the second nylon, and normal nylon on the 1st --- I think I might keep it like this because I think those two nylons are unbalanced - the top one is just naturally sounding bright, and the second one needs some help -

Aymara - 11-14-2009 at 11:31 AM

Ah, ok ... I thought both are PVF.

Edward Powell - 11-14-2009 at 11:32 AM

i will also try with the top PVF.... but im feeling lazy at the moment to switch it :-)

Ararat66 - 11-15-2009 at 12:57 AM

How about Aquilas Ed> You tried them, they seem to fall somewhere in between.

Leon:)

Aymara - 11-15-2009 at 01:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ararat66  
How about Aquilas ...


... Nylgut?

Edward Powell - 11-15-2009 at 01:19 AM

well, I am learning A Lot about trible strings, and floating bridges, and also fingerboard angles!!! This is great! ...and my new "oud" is sounding better and better as a result :bounce:

Sazi - 11-15-2009 at 01:26 AM

Yes, it's a really informative place, this.

Even slightly skewed ideas lead to different ways of thinking about things, I'm learning a lot too, and am getting a much better understanding of the workings of my instruments of choice, and have been able to modify things in a slightly less random "stab in the dark" way, with at least some idea of what effects the modifications may have.

Great stuff:)

Good luck with your latest Ragmakamtar.

Edward Powell - 11-15-2009 at 02:13 AM

thanks -
I will leave the oud side for now -- the action is just "slightly" too low and still buzzing, but since it is all SO new, I am sure that the neck will pull a bit forward and sort it out naturally

now I am on to voicing the "sarod" side...

then on to composing new music for this guy :airguitar: