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mrkmni
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Nice discussion guys;
I herad from a great knowlegable arab musician that oriental music is richer than western one, because of the various "naghamat" in it; rast is a
"naghama" for example. whereas western has major ang minor scales, which exists in arab music....
Of course, musics took from each other; if you look at the samaii composition you find similar principles ( repetitions, acceleration, ...) in
symphonies or even in Jazz music.
I also, personally believe that music is very related to language: when we speak, we apply maquamat without sensing them....
The last point entails that western people can not understand or apply oreiental music as its original people...
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Brian Prunka
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Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni  |
I herad from a great knowlegable arab musician that oriental music is richer than western one, because of the various "naghamat" in it; rast is a
"naghama" for example. whereas western has major ang minor scales, which exists in arab music.... |
I heard from a great knowledgeable European musician that all Arab music is out-of-tune. Do you see how appeals to authority lead to ridiculous
statements?
Major and minor scales are defined by the use of tonal harmony. They do not exist in Arabic music, since Arabic music does not have tonal harmony.
This is not that different than saying that a maqam is not just a scale, running up and down the notes in Rast does not produce the maqam Rast.
To say that oriental music is richer is preposterous. It is richer in some ways and poorer in others.
I do not understand this need to consider one kind of music superior to another. Musical value is not a finite resource. The respect we accord a
great composer like Qassabji or Abdel Wahab does not need to be subtracted from the greatness of Chopin or Wayne Shorter.
| Quote: |
Of course, musics took from each other; if you look at the samaii composition you find similar principles ( repetitions, acceleration, ...) in
symphonies or even in Jazz music.
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We all have human brains, and composers the world over have discovered a common affinity for certain musical traits. It is leaping to conclusions to
conclude that these characteristics were "taken" from one music to another. Many similar principles were developed independently with little
contact.
That said, people have also often and easily transmitted musical ideas, and very little music developed entirely in isolation.
Samai form is is actually more similar to ritornello form, and quite unlike symphonic forms, with are preoccupied with thematic development, a
technique almost entirely absent from any Ottoman form.
| Quote: |
The last point entails that western people can not understand or apply oreiental music as its original people... |
This may be true. I ask you to consider: do you also think that Arabs are not equipped to understand or play western music properly?
| Quote: | | Nice discussion guys; |
It has been nice so far.
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David.B
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| Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni |
The last point entails that western people can not understand or apply oreiental music as its original people... |
You're right, Titi Robin should not play flamenco anymore (he's not a gitano) -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfnGdErECuc, Coba should not be inspired by French music (He's Japanese) -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMr5M3d7SUQ, Magic Malik must stick on music from Ivory Coast (why an occidental instrument?) -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_Dv8-iw4vA, Sheikh Habboush, Sabah Fakhri, Sheikh Hamza Shakkûr and Mounir Bachir has been mystified, Julien
JalAl Eddine WEISS is white! -> http://www.webislam.com/?idv=1912, etc.
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Khalid_Salé
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| Quote: |
We all have human brains, and composers the world over have discovered a common affinity for certain musical traits. |
Indeed, even humpback whales have phrases and choruses. (Khanas and taslims?)
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mrkmni
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Guys,
I think I am misunderstood here; there was certainly frictions between oriental and western music...For example, the Valse 3 /3 that we find in last
khanas in a samaii and in classic oriental music. Can we find Valse in Indian or Korean Music? I would be surprised...Ottoman empire was at the edge
of Vienna, so of course there should be exchanges. The same thing between Andalusia and Europe: Flamenco ....It is not a bad thing....and it is not by
serependity...as you said...
Brian: we Arabs we like our "out of tune "music. You will find many conservative arab people who will refuse to listen to Mozart or Bethoven, it is
their choice...they see it strange to their ears.
The other point, David, I did not say that western players can not play arab musci, but I said they can not reach the level of aboriginal players...no
matter what and for the same reasons. Otherwise, a computer can play.
Give me American player who plays Iraqi music better than Iraqis them selves...or French player better than Egyptians or Turkish... It is just
unconceivable... the same thing with singers, and it is more clear with singers because it is a matter of tongue this time... Can you speak like
chineese even if you learn chinees?...So, Music is a cultural thing. Again, I did not say that they can not play but they will never reach the
level.
Le Baron d’Erlanger and other Orientalists ( Mustachrikins) were interested in oriental cultures only because they tried to understand these
cultures in order to colonize them.
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jenni
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mrkmni, my goal is to do what you say is inconcievable.
yes, it will take a lifetime because i don't have the memories, the associations... it's not instinctive in me, it's not automatic... it will be a
while before i will have dreams in arabic. i have thousands of hours of music-listening to do before improvising comes naturally and effortlessly,
and before quarter-tones don't stand out as something abnormal. not to mention re-learning what "proper singing" is, defying so much of what i've
learned in my classical studies.
and of course i must live in a region whose music i want to pursue before i understand how it reflects the culture.
so, perhaps these are just a few things which make you think it's impossible... you clearly have the right to this opinion. but i believe, and hope,
that one day i will prove you wrong.
all the same, i am not saying this for the sake of proving anyone wrong nor for the sake of accomplishing the impossible. i am saying this because i
have a deep love for this music and a passion which i've never felt for anything else before. i have to do it, and i have to do it well. or at least
i will die trying, because i have no choice.
wow sorry for my slightly off-topic philosophical rant...
i feel the need to post it nonetheless
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mrkmni
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jenny
I really salute your commitment, and I wish you realize your goals.
However, I dont die trying to learn other cultures others than mine. You should have very strong reason for this.
Probably, I am a conservative guy since even if I am not living in my real country, I am still attached to my culture.
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Brian Prunka
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| Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni |
Brian: we Arabs we like our "out of tune "music. You will find many conservative arab people who will refuse to listen to Mozart or Bethoven, it is
their choice...they see it strange to their ears.
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I never claimed that Arab music is out of tune.
I think you misunderstood me, perhaps irony is difficult to recognize.
I was merely pointing out, by example, how ridiculous your assertion that "a great knowlegable arab musician [said] that oriental music is richer
than western one, because of the various "naghamat" in it; rast is a "naghama" for example."
Nobody has to listen to anything.
The assertion that oriental music contains the major and minor modes is incorrect.
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The other point, David, I did not say that western players can not play arab musci, but I said they can not reach the level of aboriginal players...no
matter what and for the same reasons. |
It is probably true that a Western musician will never achieve the highest levels of the best Arab musicians in playing Arab music.
However, an excellent Western musician may in fact surpass an average Arab musician.
It is of course a matter of interpretation, but there are many excellent Arab musicians who disagree with you (and prove it in their hiring
practices).
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mrkmni
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Brian:
By richer I did not mean better, may be indian music is even richer; it has more possibilities; in composing, that is what the composer ( who composed
dozen of songs to Oum Kalthoom) meant...
I think for you the center of oriental music is NY; I have never seen a CLASSICAL music band hiring a western musucian spacialist.
I will not believe you untill you show me a native-born american who plays oud better than Simon Shahin, who is Palestinian living in America, as you
know
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Brian Prunka
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Whatever makes you happy. I've just run out of troll food, so I have to stop here.
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David.B
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| Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni | The other point, David, I did not say that western players can not play arab musci, but I said they can not reach the level of aboriginal players...no
matter what and for the same reasons. Otherwise, a computer can play.
Give me American player who plays Iraqi music better than Iraqis them selves...or French player better than Egyptians or Turkish... It is just
unconceivable... the same thing with singers, and it is more clear with singers because it is a matter of tongue this time... Can you speak like
chineese even if you learn chinees?...So, Music is a cultural thing. Again, I did not say that they can not play but they will never reach the
level.
Le Baron d’Erlanger and other Orientalists ( Mustachrikins) were interested in oriental cultures only because they tried to understand these
cultures in order to colonize them. |
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David.B
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni | Brian:
By richer I did not mean better, may be indian music is even richer; it has more possibilities; in composing, that is what the composer ( who composed
dozen of songs to Oum Kalthoom) meant...
I think for you the center of oriental music is NY; I have never seen a CLASSICAL music band hiring a western musucian spacialist.
I will not believe you untill you show me a native-born american who plays oud better than Simon Shahin, who is Palestinian living in America, as you
know |
Good, we're back on the subject with a concrete example: The golden age of Islam through Abbasids, I talked about, has definitely ended! 
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ameer
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What I don't understand is why some people here feel the need to bring up this subject every five minuts as if they somehow need to assert their
superiority for being natives. I guess it's a trait of the internet that you find all kinds. All I can say is this: last summer I had the privilage of
working with a percussionist by the name of Nate Stottlemyer. As you can probably guess this guy was not an Arab or anything resembling an Arab. At
the same time the guy could play better than any Arab I had known up to that point, though I have to confess that the pool of professionals I have had
contact with is pitifully small. My point is that as an Arab I would have absolutely no qualms about involving him in any of my work or being involved
in any of his work. On that note I propose we end this rather ridiculous chapter of the discussion.
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Jimwilson
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| Quote: Originally posted by ameer | | What I don't understand is why some people here feel the need to bring up this subject every five minuts as if they somehow need to assert their
superiority for being natives. I guess it's a trait of the internet that you find all kinds. All I can say is this: last summer I had the privilage of
working with a percussionist by the name of Nate Stottlemyer. As you can probably guess this guy was not an Arab or anything resembling an Arab. At
the same time the guy could play better than any Arab I had known up to that point, though I have to confess that the pool of professionals I have had
contact with is pitifully small. My point is that as an Arab I would have absolutely no qualms about involving him in any of my work or being involved
in any of his work. On that note I propose we end this rather ridiculous chapter of the discussion. |
For an even more ridiculous tale of cross-culture, a Tunisian friend of mine plays some fantastic piano and last year we were playing around with
scottish tunes (myself hailing from Scotland). I'm an experiened piano player but that guy managed to get the tunes out better than I ever could.
The idea of traditionalism, as with nationalism, has to be one that is moderated by common sense. We have the same problems with Scottish traditional
music as with the arabic music, turkish music etc here. Many people don't like change with music, and many people don't like too much change. It's a
balancing act, like changing anything. It's good to experiment but keep the 'essence' of the music intact.
It is impossible to say exactly how to do that in words but if you use your ears, you will see it!
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