esteso
Oud Addict
Posts: 26
Registered: 5-15-2005
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What do you guys think of this Oud?
(Please move if in wrong forum thx)
Offered by Oudproff..... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250649862888...
My concerns are (coming from a newbie) Is the bowl the same size as an Arab Oud? I have a cheap arab one and it's a bit uncomfortable for me to
play.
and, is it too dark? Yes, I know you can't really answer this question but from the perspective of only owning one good Oud I'm wondering if I might
be missing some versatility because of it'd dark, meditative tone>
and, does anyone know the maker and his rep?
and, is it worth the money? By the time I've finished with all costs it'll be upwards of $1300!
thx
Michael Telle
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Oudprof is one of the members here. I can only tell you my opinion. This oud falls in the price bracket of professional and/or collector instruments,
which it seems to be. As a professional oud it seems priced rather at the low end, though the tragic shipping costs of course are significant. On the
other hand there are very fine Egyptian ouds available for less if you can order in Cairo. Because it's a few months old it's not a collectors item. I
don't know the maker. At least it has had a little time to settle and open up, so it's a good compromise. Buying an expensive instrument without
playing it is very risky, but Oudprof is not a BS artist, he has a reputation and I would trust what he says. Too bad the audio doesn't work. The
width is full Arabic, but the depth is significantly flatter than average, so it may in fact be quite comfortable. The scale at 60 cm is becoming
popular these days, being half way between a typical Turkish and Arabic. No it's not too dark, in my eyes it's a beautiful oud with a slightly rustic
finish and lot of character, though not on my budget.
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esteso
Oud Addict
Posts: 26
Registered: 5-15-2005
Location: Bay Area
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Mood: oudish
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Thanks for your comments fernand. Yes, I know Oudproff is a real person and not a scam artist. My concerns simply grow out of the fact that I know
nothing about Ouds and so thought I would float it past the forum.
It's nice to hear that the bowl is a bit flatter than an arab oud since mine feels a bit uncomfortable. Perhaps it's possible to get an Oud from Cairo
with a smaller bowl?
It IS too bad about the shipping but what can you do? Are you sure the audio doesn't work? I just clicked on it again and no problems. At any rate,
that's what I was referring to ......... the sound as dark. Quite beautiful, but maybe not too versatile for an only oud. Again I throw myself at the
mercy of people that have an opinion borne of experience.
Lovely Oud, I just can't afford to make a mistake at that price. PS I am very used to buying instruments without playing them since I had the tragedy
of being born hopelessly left handed. Although I suppose you can get a pretty good feel for an instrument even upside down.
Thanks again.
Michael Telle
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
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Hi Esteso
As Fernand says, oudproff has a lot of satisfied customers on these forums and is well respected. I'm sure he would be one of the best persons to
answer your questions and I think he'd be straight with you.
I don't think you'd have a problem with the dimensions. At any rate, unless you have unusual physical dimensions yourself (sorry, not a personal
question), you'll need to get used to holding a more or less standard sized oud, which, with practice, gets to feel perfectly natural. A piece of thin
carpet underlay on your lap can help with this.
I guess your main question is going to be over the sound. As you probably realise, oud tone is a pretty elusive quality and it's really hard to judge
from a recording. To me, it doesn't sound especially "dark", if by that you mean deep. My inkling as that live it won't sound quite as "dark" as it
does in the recording. Iraqi ouds have a different tone - less deep and buzzy than Egyptian or Syrian ones. I can't really put my finger on it, and
maybe others more experienced can step in here, but this oud does seem to me generally to have an iraqi character, though slightly deeper than the
norm, whatever that is. As I say though, I think it might sound a bit lighter live.
But it would perhaps be good to think about whether you like the iraqi sound. Try to listen to some of Oudproff's other recordings on iraqi and
egyptian ouds, to get a feel for the difference. And ask Oudproff about your tonal issues.
It's a lovely, top class oud though, by a good but not super famous maker. Just to be clear, if you do choose an iraqi oud, you're in no way
constrained to the iraqi repertoire. It's just a matter of personal preference re tone.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Esteso,
The sound file started working for some reason after a while. You know, oud "sound files" are not directly revealing, you have to listen "between the
lines". I think the sound of this oud is not what I think of as the typical "deep Arabic timbre", that I associate more with Egyptians, and that I
would characterize as a bit of a "lovely bark". This oud has a longer sustain and more high frequency content, it reminds me a bit of a Sukar, but
with less bass, maybe the shallower bowl. Nor is it typical of the Iraqis that usually have floating bridges and a brighter shorter sound. None of
these timbres are better or worse, matter of taste. Many people end up having some of each ;-)
http://www.arabinstruments.com/112730/Oud-By-Ibrahim-Sukar-CAT-1190
http://www.arabinstruments.com/112730/Pro-Oud-By-Ibrahim-Sukar-CAT-...
http://www.arabinstruments.com/112730/Oud-By-Ibrahim-Sukar-Model-21...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Syrian-Oud-w-hard-case-/180494673396?cmd=ViewIt...
This Iraqi oud is very nicely presented, the photographs bring out the warm colors, the sound file is great. It's more decorated than a Sukar. I do
like the rosewood. Many here would probably say it's more "classy" than a Sukar, I'm not sure in what way, the Iraqi even has a varnished soundboard,
which is usually not considered "classy". I'm bringing up Sukar as a point of reference, they are the Honda of the oud world, I like them, and I'm
pretty familiar with them. Luttgutt has 8 of them. I drive a Honda Accord. I keep looking at those pictures of the Iraqi and they make me think of
soft leather. My Accord has leather.
Just some thoughts .... oh, one more thing, If you are sitting there biting your nails, I don't know if that oud is going to run away tonight,
not-cheap ouds usually take a while to sell, and get re-posted.
One more, more, thing. You say "My concerns simply grow out of the fact that I know nothing about Ouds ... I just can't afford to make a mistake at
that price. " -- and what that clearly says to me, is "then surely you are not ready to buy an oud that you consider an expensive risk, you need to
not 'know nothing' ".
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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I think, this is a very good point.
This won't be the last interesting oud being sold and I also think, that a good one might be available cheaper some time.
Esteso ... dig through the forums and Youtube to find out, which oud design and sound will be the right one for you.
Oh ... and check out what has been sold through the forums in the last months ... you might find a luthier, that might be able to build a lefty oud
for your needs and budget, who knows.
You already have an oud, so ... no need to hurry 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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esteso
Oud Addict
Posts: 26
Registered: 5-15-2005
Location: Bay Area
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Mood: oudish
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Dave and Fernand,
Thank you very much for your long and detailed responses, It's the kind of guidance I'd hoped to receive from this amazing forum.
I think the bottom line is, as suggested, I need to spend a lot more time listening and understanding the different characteristics of the different
styles of Ouds before I jump into a really nice one.
I'm in a sort of strange place in that I can't play the Oud but when I pick up my cheap Oud it doesn't exactly inspire me. Although I can't play the
Oud well, I am an accomplished musician of 40 years and am used to playing good instruments. That's why I jumped right up into a pretty decent class
of Oud to start. But I agree it would be wiser to bide my time a bit and learn more of the ins and outs of oudism first.
Perhaps since the Sukar is the "Honda" LOL of the Oud world I should start there. Since, apparently, quite a few people play these and the lower
models are not that expensive it might be good to see what I like or don't like about them as my skills increase.
I see Aymara has just chimed in with agreement....... so thanks everyone. I'll bide my time (but not for TOO long 'cause I really don't like my oud
much)
Michael Telle
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
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Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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They have a big advantage ... an adjustable neck, so you can adjust the string's action. Do we need to tell more?
| Quote: | | ... but not for TOO long ... |
A few weeks of research won't kill you
PS: In the meantime ... maybe your oud would be more inspiring with better strings?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
Posts: 454
Registered: 4-29-2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
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You really can't go wrong with a good Sukkar oud.
Chris Walters
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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I know it's hard to put a paper bag on an oud but what exatcly is wrong with your current oud? Maybe it can be temporarily improved?
Another detail is that the standards are different in different parts of the world. When you don't have power tools and not being paid 1st world wages
and nobody cares, you might not finish the instrument like a $5000 boutique fretless bass, LOL. I personally think a musician should know how to tidy
up and customize an instrument, it can save you a bundle and build a bond too.
If you want a better finished and more handy instrument, Turkish ouds are smaller and more elegant. But they are tuned higher and have a different
sound, listen to a lot of ouds on YouTube. Can't go wrong with a Faruk Turunz Grand Concert, at $2500 to $5000 base price ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3AOA4_L__U&feature=youtube_gdat...
the Arabic sound is different
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1fjWrGBgWg&feature=youtube_gdat...
It's hard to beat a Sukar, especially if you aren't already attached to a specific type. Ibrahim Sukar prides himself on making ouds that are
extremely practical and affordable. He refuses to use super rare and endangered woods, he's an engineer and he's put a lot of thought into how to make
a traditional acoustic oud for the 21st century. No mechanical tuners, no saddle, just a smart design in a full-sized Arabic with a full and
sustaining voice. Now he's just come out with an electric oud that's a bit reminiscent of an Ovation guitar, but flatter. Ouds are notoriously hard
to amplify as the instrument is so live and prone to feedback.
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esteso
Oud Addict
Posts: 26
Registered: 5-15-2005
Location: Bay Area
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Mood: oudish
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Thanks for staying with this a bit guys. The oud to me just sounds cheap. No doubt one of those cheap tourist models that people buy until they know
what they're doing.
I wouldn't be surprised if the top was plywood and it's developed two cracks alongside the seams where 3 pieces of wood have been glued together to
form the top. (not a good start) The resonance of the body is weird too. It kind of woofs and goes boing at the same time. The only places the body
resonates at all is in the very middle of the top. My guess is that it's heavily over braced. Perhaps that's normal for ouds but I tend to doubt it.
It's sure not true for a nice Flamenco or Classical or Acoustic.
Anyway the net effect is a pretty significant ledge between the wound courses and the nylon courses. The bass of the instrument is pretty good. I
could live with it. The treble, however, is not good. The volume dips a lot and there is very little life to the sound. The instrument does not
respond well to dynamics either. I feel like I'm missing the bottom and top 20% of the possible volume that a good instrument would have.
I have already switched the pegs out for a good ebony set and my tuning is pretty decent. I've also switched out the nut to bone, also an improvement.
There's not too much finish on the top although I suppose I could wet sand it out a bit more. I could also remove the thin coat of varnish (or
whatever) from the fingerboard.
I do not believe that any of those modifications will do much at this point. Yes, I've got brand new strings on it..... La Bella OU80 tuned to
standard Arabic C F aa dd gg cc.
I'm open to suggestions although I think I'd rather put the time into finding something that would inspire me instead of just putting up with what
I've got.
I'm attaching a photo, which may help. Can't get the label but I'm pretty sure it's a fake Ali Khalifah (spelling?)
Michael Telle
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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You've done "due diligence", and that's as far as you can go.
Well, look at however many ouds you can, look at prices, listen to recordings and decide what you want. Many of us here have found that the oud draws
you in like no other instrument, all the way into learning about Maqamat, so you may as well get an instrument whose intimate company you can enjoy
for some time. I rather quickly ended up with several ouds, and I like having different timbres.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Ok, here are my thoughts:
First this oud looks nice ... like an expensive historical one
So why not try to further improve it, until you really know, how your dream oud should be designed ... which body design, which woods, which tuning
and strings.
To get a better inspiration from this oud, I could imagine two potential improvements:
1. Different strings. The LaBella set isn't designed for CFAdgc and because you're unhappy with the trebbles, maybe choose PVF or nylgut over nylon. To give nylgut a try, you could try Aquila strings.
2. You could improve the fingerboard ... read THIS.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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esteso
Oud Addict
Posts: 26
Registered: 5-15-2005
Location: Bay Area
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Mood: oudish
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Well you guys have certainly given me a lot to think about. But it's fun because it's a different realm and I enjoy coming into a whole new world and
looking around and learning new stuff.
Chris ......... maybe you'd like to buy my nice historical oud? I'll give you a good price! )
And yes, I'll try new strings when I'm due. I didn't realize the La Bella set was tensioned incorrectly. What are OU80's then? For Turkish? The box
doesn't give a hint although I must confess I didn't check gauges. (bad doggie)
Hmm, tung oil the fingerboard. Interesting. I'd be inclined to try that on my next string change too. In the meantime I will research my little heart
out in order to get deeper into what kinds of ouds I think would be a bit more to my taste.
Cheers
Michael Telle
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Yes, it's a set for Turkish ouds, but you also could use it on short scale arabic ouds in standard arab tuning, though there might be better choices.
Maybe I should mention, that Pyramid lute strings are also used by many. Pyramid also has PVF trebbles.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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The boys who hated math are always touting the label  . Turkish, Shmirkish. How
about Kurdish? La Bella OU80 are a "standard set". They have similar gauges to D'Addario J95 and Daniel Mari. Tension is determined by mass, scale
length, pitch and gauge, there are programs to do the calculations. The materials and construction on all these strings are similar to classical
guitar strings, I've taken them apart: silvered copper wound on nylon filaments, and of course nylon trebles. If you break a string, in a pinch you
can always run down to Guitar Center and pick up some Spanish guitar single strings of the same gauges. Most Ouds like a tension around 4 kg per
string, much less than Spanish guitars. The amazing thing is how much volume (and feedback ;-) this 1 kg instrument produces. Try to amplify it, and
it shakes and practically howls right out of your hands
Such "standard" strings are used for Turkish tuning on a 585 mm scale Turkish oud, or a (2 half steps lower) Arabic tuning on a common 615 mm Arabic
oud. Both situations yield roughly the same tensions, from 3-4 kg, +/- a couple hundred grams, the 615 mm scale a little tighter.
You have to use your head, you can't tune such a set up to Turkish on a 615 or longer mm Arabic, as that pushes 5 kg, though on a short scale you can
ALWAYS tune Turkish or Arabic.
But because it's always possible a particular wound string will be made of depleted uranium, or lead, well, how the strings feel is the last word.
D'Addarios for instance seem to squeeze a little more metal into a given gauge, it's the only explanation, since everybody says they feel "tight". The
"lighter" Maris use a thicker nylon core.
The garden variety nylon trebles are replaced by some with Nylgut, PVF or various allegedly special nylons. I just got two courses of PVF, $14 plus
shipping. Ouch. It seems we are always looking for something better than fish line. Oh, yes, "for use on long scale ouds with Arabic tuning, or short
scale with Turkish tuning". Same thing, Leon. Lute players are very "uptown" and seem to fall into the hands of specialized string providers, never to
be seen again.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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On the fingerboard, you can try other stuff. Formby's "tung oil finish" worked OK, but all the Tung Oil based finishes take a while to set, it takes
several days for several layers. I don't know if that works some great magic. The thing I wouldn't want to lose is the way additional layers meld with
previous ones, it's like it depolymerizes and then sets in a perfect bond with the layer you are adding. This makes touch-up very nice, when you
change strings, you can correct any wear, and the new layer seems to set faster.
But I think that Tru-Oil, used for rifle stocks, seems to set faster altogether, is probably of a similar hardness, it might be better, it might be
worse. It may have more petroleum based "stuff" in it. They do seem to praise its resilience to high heaven. I may try it on the next oud.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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How about the special fingerboard oils you can get in guitar shops? Dunlop for example?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Worthless. There is a fundamental difference between "conditioning oils", which are supposed to "feed" the (dead) wood, and are basically like mineral
oil, and polymerizing oils, like linseed and tung oil, that polymerize into a sort of plastic. The object is not to grease up the fingerboard, the
object is to create a strong surface that protects the wood and increases sustain. Like a pool cue finish as opposed to baby oil. I wouldn't want to
use Tung oil on the baby's butt
RESISTS SPANKING! ARMOUR-BUTT!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  | There is a fundamental difference between "conditioning oils", which are supposed to "feed" the (dead) wood, and are basically like mineral oil, and
polymerizing oils, like linseed and tung oil, ...
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I found some helpful tips in a german guitar builder forum:
Tung oil is used on new fingerboards to make them harder and protect them from moisture. Fingerboard oil is used later for conditioning and cleaning.
I found the same info in a workshop documentation of a famous german guitar luthier.
But this info was about rosewood and ebony fingerboards. With lighter woods it's bit different regarding contioning ... some oils darken the wood.
I think it's the same with other fingerboards like oud, violin, fretless bass.
PS: As it seems tung oil is the way to go for Michael.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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<<As it seems tung oil is the way to go for Michael.>>
Frankly, I think the way to go for Michael is to play that puppy as it is, not alter its pristine state, until some opportunity to submit an insurance
claim arises, whereupon he can quote your expert statement ("an expensive historical one") and send them the remains in a ziplock baggie, to support
the $1750 claim. Although the historical oud cannot be replaced, that should cover a sufficiently nice new oud, shipping, some strings and feather
rishas.
I keep kicking myself for not letting the gorilla man take my oud Adani (in a very thin cloth softcase) by the neck down into the baggage hold of the
plane, where it could travel next to 50 bags of ball bearings, 12 fake marble status of Venus de Milo, and some photocopiers.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Don't you think, this historical Nahat master piece isn't worth more? Maybe 3000$?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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esteso
Oud Addict
Posts: 26
Registered: 5-15-2005
Location: Bay Area
Member Is Offline
Mood: oudish
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud |
Frankly, I think the way to go for Michael is to play that puppy as it is, not alter its pristine state, until some opportunity to submit an insurance
claim arises, whereupon he can quote your expert statement ("an expensive historical one") and send them the remains in a ziplock baggie, to support
the $1750 claim. Although the historical oud cannot be replaced, that should cover a sufficiently nice new oud, shipping, some strings and feather
rishas.
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Fernand.....I love your thinking on this! It seems we have a certain bent of mind in common. And Chris...... that's a bit much perhaps. We don't want
to trigger a bothersome insurance fraud investigation. (of course we do have your expert, credible opinion on record so..........?)
One thing for sure is it will sound a lot better if I could play it better so I'd better get off the forum and do a little practicing.
Cheers
Michael Telle
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I was only joking, because your oud looks a bit like an old Nahat oud.
But though I'm not an expert ... I play oud since last November ... I learned from these forums, that some old ouds from the early 20th century are
sold for such high prices even when they need some luthier work to become playable again. But it's not only a matter of age, but mainly a matter,
which luthier built them.
Do some research regarding historical ouds.
If I were you, I would definitly try different strings and maybe the fingerboard job too. Even if your oud should have an accident later or might get
stolen it might help you now ... until you know, which kind of oud should be the
next.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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