Jono Oud N.Z
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Seyir (Sayr)
Seyir (sayr).
The sayr aspect of many maqamat is often ignored these days in Arabic maqam music.
(Turkish makam music generally adheres to the seyir aspect).
For example the maqamat Nahawand and Buselik have different sayr's.
Often these days they are approached as if the only difference is the pitch of the tonic.
(Just like the Western classical minor scale).
This too common simplification is due to too much Western influence I believe.
Maqam Ajam Ushayran does use the same scale as the Western major scale but the sayr is descending.
This is also often ignored.
Another example is maqam Ushshaq, often played in Arabic music but still lumped together with Bayati with no regard for the differing sayr's.
Is this simplification good?
Do we prefer the simplified Western influenced scalar approach or the older seyir / sayr system?
Also I enjoy fusion music that blends Arabic/Turkish/Persian music with Jazz, Latin, Western Classical etc, but the
beauty and diversity / subtlety of the old system is much richer in my opinion.
http://www.adamgood.com/turkish_nota/seyir.php?makam=4&sort=for...
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Brian Prunka
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Hi Jonathan,
I think this is true to some extent, but the best Arabic players still understand seyir, even if it is not the same is in the Ottoman system.
In my experience, Arab musicians don't conceptualize the seyir into an abstract system, but rely on rote memorization of repertoire and taqasim to
gain an intuitive understanding. Of course this system has drawbacks, but so does the literal codification in the modern Turkish system.
If you listen to a player like Simon Shaheen, Bassam Saba,or Abadi al Johar, or a singer like Wadih al Safi or Sonia Mbarek, you definitely hear the
structure of the maqam.
From an improvisational standpoint, far fewer maqamat are used by contemporary improvisers than we find in the old repertoire. Some of this is
because of the simplification you're talking about. I don't think the simplification is a "Westernization", if anything, the Turkish academic
approach is Western-influenced.
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Hi.
You have many good points.
I also understand the Turkish approach being too Western in many other aspects.
For example the lack of understanding of the ethos of the maqam, very important in Arabic music, (Oum Kalsoum comes to mind.) This apparently is not
taught in Turkey anymore (Karl Signell). And many of the Turkish musicians are often reading sheet music scores rather than playing from memory.
The 'Westernisation' I was referring to was after after reading Scott Marcus' 'Arab Music in the Modern Period'.
He said that many music students in Egypt in the mid 1900's were preferring to learn Western Classical music rather than Arabic maqam music,
Therefore the music was purposely simplified, (less maqamat, sayr etc.) as to keep the students interested. They were finding the Western music much
easier to learn.
So the maqam music (in Egypt) was simplified simply to keep the music alive at all.
These days, though, the music has gone through a major revival (or revivals) and today there are many top Arabic style players and singers.
I love much Arabic, Turkish and Persian music as well as music from all over the world.
I love the tarab and fiery aspect of the Arab styles and also the subtlety and refinement of the Turkish.
It seems that Aleppo has preserved the old Wasla style the most out of the Eastern Arab countries.
I have heard that many Arabic musicians consider Aleppo to be the most important place for Arabic music too.
I can hear the sayr in many Arabic recordings.
Particularly archive recordings and quite recent ones too
One example of what I meant, for example, if you listen to a taqsim in Hijazkar from the early 1900's in Egypt, compared to a typical 'Spanish' style
rendition today the sayr seems much more intact.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=12247#pid83...
Musicians like Al Kindi, Issa Boulos, Sonia Mbarek, Simon Shaheen, Farida, Beirut Ensemble and Twais are among my favourite current Arabic artists
that are keeping the old tradition alive.
Many archive recordings of non Arab or Turkish musicians seem to join Arab and Turkish styles together to become what I believe was originally one
style anyway (D'Erlanger).
Two examples are the Armenian oudist Marko Melkon and the Jewish singer Rabbi Isaac Alghazi, there is a strong sense of sayr in these recordings.
I read in the CD liner notes of 'Unwaqnted Maqamat' by Muhammad Qadri Dalal that he is one of the few Arab players today that knows over 100 maqamat.
I enjoy finding old and forgotten maqamat and playing pieces and taqasim in these and re-introducing these modes.
I agree that not all the 'compound maqamat' work but there some really interesting and effective ones.
Some are not compounds though, Nishabour is one I really like for example.
The Turkish group Bezmara are resurrecting old and forgotten modes as well as inventing some new ones.
The Al Kindi Ensemble are doing similar things also.
While I love the classic maqamat like Rast, Saba, Hijaz etc, I believe that many of these forgotten modes inject new life and enrich the music.
The sayr aspect does affect the mood of the maqam also.
For example I find maqam Ushshaq much brighter than Bayati.
Also Hijazkar Kurd has a very interesting and changeable sayr too.
I believe that the sayr aspect is a built in part of all maqam based music, from the Andalusian Nuba of North Africa to the muqam of Xinxiang.
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spartan
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Excellent approach by both of you .
IMHO before the middle of the 19th century Arabic, Turkish, Greek, Armenian , Persian , Kurd, Jewish etc music didnt appear as something different.
I ' m not a musicologist and maybe I' m wrong, but I dont know ancient books to speak about ethnic music as a specific different genre.
In fact there was modal (maqam) music , the music of all middle east.
After the rise of national liberation movements it began to appear books about the differences and musicologists of each nation trying to persuade
about the differences, which is the first one to invent this music etc.
Personnaly I like so much maqam (modal) music, it's like a journey, travelling to some place and get back.
In Greece the word for these modes is Dromos, and means ROAD, I think this is the exact meaning.
There is a huge number of Maqams, so it's beautiful to learn and trying play them, because each one have different mood, different feeling.
I think we need both academic approach, but also the sentimental non academical approach.
And the only difference I see is if a music is based on maqam or not (modal or western)
for example Farahfaza Longa of Riad Sunbati is a beautiful piece but there is no maqam there .
On the other hand a small very old rembetiko song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk4iwN6YvOA
the main maqam is hijaz, but then there is a modulation on Awj (evic) and then Sabah and finally back to Hijaz.
(sorry for my broken english)
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Hi.
Just listening to the rembetiko song track now.
Very nice!
Nice modulations too.
I love the old recordings.
You have made many good points too.
I like the 'road', journey translation, this makes a lot of sense.
After researching Arabic, Turkish, Persian (etc) maqam music, it very much seems like when one (nationalistic) group is strong in a particular area,
another group is stronger in a different area.
I am just beginning my PHD on 'Court Music of the Ottoman Empire', focussing on the Demitrie Cantemir repertoire.
This repertoire includes compositions from composers from many different backgrounds; Turkish, Arabic, Persian, Jewish, Greek, Romanian, Armenian etc.
Many of the oldest pieces in the collection are Persian pieces from Herat.
Herat was the centre of maqam music in between the Baghdad and Istanbul periods.
The difficulty has been researching what has been fragmented into three major (nationalistic) genres, (Arabic, Turkish and Persian) and 'adding up'
the combined results to try to piece together what was originally a multicultural art music.
Often the musicians who were/are neither Turkish, Arabic or Persian, eg: Greek, Armenian, Jewish, Romanian, Azrei, Kurdish etc have, in my opinion
stayed closer to a style that represents the old Ottoman multicultural style, as they don't feel they have to represent one of the three major modern
genres.
I think Al Kindi's 'Ottoman Perfumes' album is a breakthrough.
There are Syrian, Egyptian, Turkish and Azeri musicians playing together to try to recreate the true multicultural Ottoman music.
Also albums like Ziad Rajabs 'Mawjet Tarab', an mixture of Greek and Syrian, Derya Turkan & Sokratis Sinopoulos 'Letter from Istanbul' (Greek and
Turkish) and Kudsi Erguner's 'Oriental Dreams' (Persian and Turkish) all point to the old shared maqam tradition.
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Sorry for 'harping on' about this stuff. LOL
I mean no disrespect to anyone with regards to nationality etc.
I also respect that today Arabic and Turkish schools of oud playing are certainly quite different today.
My real point was that the subtle differences between similar maqamat (that share the same scale) make the music richer and more varied in my opinion.
Strong examples of these are Nahawand/Buselik, Bayati/Ushshaq and maqamat Hijaz Kar and Hijaz Kar Kurd.
Also I believe strongly that the differences between Arabic and Turkish styles is a recent phenomenon that only began in the second half of the 19th
century.
The oud was out of use in Turkish art music for a few hundred years and was only re-introduced from Egypt and Syria (and the qanun) in the 19th
century.
The Ottoman tanbur had replaced the oud for quite some time.
In my opinion the modern Turkish oud style incorporates many techniques from the tanbur style that was pioneered by Tanburi Isak (1745-1814).
It would seem that, due to the absence of the oud in Turkish art music for some time, that the Arabic and Persian oud styles are older and that, in my
opinion, Turkish oud would have been played in the past much more this way.
On the other hand I am very keen to learn the (very elusive) Turkish techniques (carpma) mentioned in this forum.
By the way, what style would you call this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp8ktvINEmo
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spartan
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Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z  |
Many of the oldest pieces in the collection are Persian pieces from Herat.
Herat was the centre of maqam music in between the Baghdad and Istanbul periods.
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just to prove your post...
There is an old codex from greek monastery dating from 1818. It's a very small biography of ZaKharya Khanende , a famous composer of Byzantine and
Classical Ottoman music.
It' s written : "...the melody being that of the preeminent exponent of Persian Musical Art, the most noble, Zakharia"
Persian Musical Art it's the term used by ecclesiastical circles to describe the secular music, so the Classical music (semai, pesrev, sarki etc)
This might be a term because all forms of classical musiv have been introduced in Persia.
===========================================
About seyir
Karl Signell write about seyir that the seyir of a single maqam could be different from musician to another, because this comes from a rich an complex
tradition.
And that's very close to the truth.
Example
Kurdili Hijaskar Semai from tatyos is different from vasilaki Semai (even that they lived about the same era and they come from the same 'school" )
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spartan
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the GREAT Marko Melkon !
A totally personal and different style from other oudists of the time.
He sang and play Armenian, Turkish, Greek etc pieces
Amazing taqassims
this is a hijazkar piece with a beautiful taqassim in the middle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI0Z-gNAkVQ
Another strange and interesting recording is oud with Cretan lyra playing traditional regional style , something very rare for this kind of music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOZxYVLlPMs&feature=related
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Hi.
Just listening to the tracks now.
Really like the Hijazkar piece, nice taqsim too.
I also really like the Cretan lyra.
I am a big fan of Derya Turkan & Sokratis Sinopoulos collaborations.
Do you have this album also?
Turkish and Greek with the Persian setar.
http://www.tulumba.com/storeItemSmlr.asp?ic=MU9398677GN785&
This is close to the Al Kindi 'Parfums Ottomans' album, re-creating the multicultural aspect of maqam music.
I have the Karl Signell book too.
Good point, there are certainly variations on seyir.
Two other books that deal with the subject are Walter Feldman's 'Music of the Ottoman Court' (much more in depth than the Signell book), and 'the
Turkish Makam Guide' by Murat Aydemir.
The second book deals with the scales, whether the maqamat are ascending, ascending-descending or descending and the basic seyir as well.
In the 'Ottoman Court' book, Feldman discusses the evolution of the Ottoman Pesrev (Bashraf) from the Persian 'Pishrow', a prelude instrumental
piece.
Also the early Saz Semaisi (Samai') are in 6/4 or 6/8 not 10/8.
It seems that the Saz Semaisi gradually evolved in to the 10/8 genre in the later 17th century partly due to the Sufi taste for asymmetrical rhythms,
although...
I have a recording of a Persian folk melody that is in the modern Samai rhythm ('Samai Thaqil'), this may possibly point to a Persian source of this
rhythm too.
I have noticed that the seyir of many maqamat 'sit well' on both the oud and the ney.
For example the descending nature of Sultani Yekah versus the ascending-descending nature of Nahawand.
Exactly the same can be said of the maqamat Hijazkar and Hijaz.
The various seyir probably evolved partially due to this and the vocal requirements; easy to sing, etc.
So the seyir aspect seems to have evolved naturally along these lines.
The way I think of it is like this.
This is just my idea/understanding though:
'Each maqam has a basic melody that is 'built-in' to the maqam, and each piece in the maqam is like a variation on this inbuilt 'core melody'.
Bezmara (maqam Nishabour I think):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S2BSD3EspI
Syrian / Greek music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6bIQS3FdHU
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