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stos
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 9-29-2008
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hmm İ have another question about the JI tunıng of the oud
maybe I don t understand practılly what does tunıng "by ear" means :
ıs ıt usıng the neck/body joınt to tune the lower strıng every tıme or really just tune by ear? are they dıfferent
technıques somebody could post about ıt?
maybe ım affraıd beıng so long tıme dependant on ET and don t trust my ears any more 
thanks a lot
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 11-5-2011
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"By ear" means the same method one would use to sing in tune. The human being does have a neck/body joint but it is not relevant for making vocal
music. Whatever tuning one uses on oud the four highest courses are always an interval of a fourth apart. This is an easy interval to hear and to know
if it is correct or not. Our brains seem to be hard wired to recognize it although constant dependance for all pitches on electronic tuners can
temporarily limit our natural ability to hear it. The fourth is the range between the lowest to the highest pitch in the djins of almost any maqam
you can think of. It's a "tetrachord" . The remaining (lower strings) are octaves of one of the higher strings or are also tuned an interval of a
fourth below its neighboring string.
Quote: Originally posted by stos  | hmm İ have another question about the JI tunıng of the oud
maybe I don t understand practılly what does tunıng "by ear" means :
ıs ıt usıng the neck/body joınt to tune the lower strıng every tıme or really just tune by ear? are they dıfferent
technıques somebody could post about ıt?
maybe ım affraıd beıng so long tıme dependant on ET and don t trust my ears any more
thanks a lot |
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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| Quote: Originally posted by stos | hmm İ have another question about the JI tunıng of the oud
maybe I don t understand practılly what does tunıng "by ear" means :
ıs ıt usıng the neck/body joınt to tune the lower strıng every tıme or really just tune by ear? are they dıfferent
technıques somebody could post about ıt?
maybe ım affraıd beıng so long tıme dependant on ET and don t trust my ears any more
thanks a lot |
Jody's comment is correct but might not be enough to help you.
Fundamentally, tuning is about resonance. In a nutshell, resonance is when waveforms line up with one another.
A "perfect fourth" means that the fourth peak of the waveform of the higher string lines up with the third peak of the waveform of the lower string.
You don't actually need to know the numbers, this is just an illustration of what happens.
If you have trouble hearing it, practice singing with a drone--your body and brain can feel when resonance occurs. Once you can recognize that
feeling, it is relatively easy to recognize it in its subtler form occurring on an instrument.
Being dependent on ET certainly can interfere with developing an internal sense of pitch, IMO. It can confuse you because ET has no perfect
resonances except between octaves. Fifths and fourths are pretty close to perfect (as close as humans generally get anyway).
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amna.al.hawaj
Oud Lover
Posts: 15
Registered: 6-12-2012
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When I first started playing Oud I definitely couldn't tell weather I was hitting the correct notes or not...
I used a marker on the top of the neck to mark each fingers spot then used a mirror to make sure my fingers fall in the right place... lots of Oud
students do that... some even use a marker on the strings themselves... then all you do is practice practice practice....
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Watching a tuner program on a laptop as you play can be very helpful at times. The problem with any kind of chromatic markers is that it teaches you
to watch your left hand, which is a bad habit and very hard to shake later. I like to put two "dot" guides at the third and the fourth on the side of
the fingerboard (like on many guitars), it's OK to glance at now and then, especially if you move your hand a lot and are playing with other
instruments, but for practice mostly watch the tuner to check your intonation and help train your ear, while getting away from watching your hands.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
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How will the tuner program know if you are practicing the Rast of Turkey or the Rast of Cairo ?
| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | Watching a tuner program on a laptop as you play can be very helpful at times. The problem with any kind of chromatic markers is that it teaches you
to watch your left hand, which is a bad habit and very hard to shake later. I like to put two "dot" guides at the third and the fourth on the side of
the fingerboard (like on many guitars), it's OK to glance at now and then, especially if you move your hand a lot and are playing with other
instruments, but for practice mostly watch the tuner to check your intonation and help train your ear, while getting away from watching your hands.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
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An overly dogmatic approach can often do nothing more than discourage beginners. Different approaches are necessary for different individuals.
Like you, I would not generally suggest relying on a tuner, but if an individual is having the kind of difficulty that would lead to their giving up
then it is the lesser evil and can serve as a temporary stopgap.
If your attitude is "do it by ear, and if you can't then you should give up because you lack musical talent" then I would say that it's not very
helpful advice.
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RubabPlayer
Oud Maniac
Posts: 89
Registered: 5-20-2009
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Learning to hear and understand notes is a separate issue from finding them on a given instrument. I have very good sense for notes, event microtones
thanks to playing Persian Setar and Turkish Saz. The key to learning to hear the notes is spending a lot of time exposing yourself to them.
But finding notes on an instrument is a matter of practice. Play, play some more and play some more and it will come.
Still intimidated by fretless, but hoping to place that Oud order this week and dive in.
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luan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 159
Registered: 11-25-2011
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There's two intervals that you should test to see if you can know if they are in tune or not: the octave and the fifth.
That's the two I practiced the most at first. They are in the same spot actually, the fifth of one string is the octave of the string before. If you
can play those in tune, then you need to hear the other notes in tune in first position. When you master that, you learn second position.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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Brian, I never said anything about talent or quitting. Talent give one a head start, that's all. Anyone can learn to hear but only if they try. My
background is in American vernacular music (blues, bluegrass, appalachian music, all of which is microtonal and much of which is modal). I have
witnessed an entire generation — no, Two generations become functionally deaf and unable to discern or reproduce the fine and true intonation of the
late 19th and early 20th century because they have surrendered their power of discernment to a box (the electronic tuner).
The dogmatic approach is the one that says "I must rely on the tuner because it must be right". My approach is the one that says "playing music
without listening is like painting without looking". Or even "playing music by relying on visual cues is like painting by relying on the sound of the
paint". In the beginning one's perception of pitch is coarser than it will get later on. But if a music student doesn't make the attempt to hear
their ability to hear can't improve.
I would never tell someone to give up. I'm suggesting the opposite. I'm saying "Start Listening and do it today. You'll get better".
| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | An overly dogmatic approach can often do nothing more than discourage beginners. Different approaches are necessary for different individuals.
Like you, I would not generally suggest relying on a tuner, but if an individual is having the kind of difficulty that would lead to their giving up
then it is the lesser evil and can serve as a temporary stopgap.
If your attitude is "do it by ear, and if you can't then you should give up because you lack musical talent" then I would say that it's not very
helpful advice.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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I submit that these two things are fundamentally the same. If you can hear it you can find it on the string.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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The dogmatic approach is the one that says "there is one right way to do something that applies to all people in all situations."
I quite agree with you in the details, but I refuse to agree with a dogmatic approach. There are many as paths to knowledge as there are people.
Note that Fernand suggested using a tuner, not me . . . my suggestion was to sing.
| Quote: | | I would never tell someone to give up. |
You don't have to tell people directly to give up. Whether or not you realize it, an inflexible approach is as good as telling some people to give
up.
If you say "this is the one way to learn" and they just can't get it after repeatedly trying then they will conclude that they just don't have the
ability. After all, they practiced the "right way" and didn't improve--if the method isn't faulty then it must be their talents that failed them.
Some people have a lot of trouble with pitch and tuning. It is important to give those people as many tools as possible to ease
the intense frustration of learning to play an instrument. If for a certain period of time this includes using a tuner then that is okay.
Thousands of string players used markers in the early stages of study to help learn the positions without detrimental effects on their ears. Fuzzy
hearing can be refined later once a student has made some progress.
On the occasions when I thought a student could benefit from using a tuner as a reference, I made sure to communicate very clearly that the tuner was
inaccurate by design and that it is only a rough guide--always listen, and whenever there is a discrepancy between your ears and a tuner, trust your
ears.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
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My earlier posts in this thread were strongly worded and seem to have created the impression that I have inflexible views. I regret that and apologize
for any annoyance it has caused. . The force with which I wrote was rooted in sadness over the loss of microtonal nuance in American vernacular
music, and a similar loss in the raga music of India, and in the shock of seeing the beginnings of the same thing in maqam music.
I don't know why you think we have a quarrel, Brian; I don't think we do. Your teaching methods are admirable and are not under attack from me. Of
course different people learn different ways and of course one should use any tool available to become a better musician.
I don't understand the significance of your point that Fernand was the one to mention the tuner, not you. I addressed my rhetorical question to a
quote from his post, not to one from yours. In response to requests from several forum members for help in tuning and help in finger placement I wrote
that our brains and ears are better than tuners, provided we use them. You agree with that so what's the problem? We do disagree about whether what I
said or how I said it amounts to dogma.
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amna.al.hawaj
Oud Lover
Posts: 15
Registered: 6-12-2012
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If some one is having trouble with finger placement, then there is no harm in dotting the spots and using a mirror, the mirror helps to keep your eyes
off your left hand.
Plenty of Oud students use this cheat and after a few hours (more for some less for others) your fingers will remember their place and once they do
your ears will follow.
This all depends on how much experience you have with instruments, personally I had none when I first started Oud and my ears were not trained at all
and I can tell you that if I had to use a tuner to figure out where every note was I would not have learned Oud.
Technical and in depth-information can be great, but complicating simple things like finger placement is not.
Also this is a great video for scale exorcises there is a written not for it somewhere online by Tareq Al Jundi.. Check it out it might help you
develop your ears and maybe help with the finger placement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B480Uk5aN2M
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
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Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher | My earlier posts in this thread were strongly worded and seem to have created the impression that I have inflexible views. I regret that and apologize
for any annoyance it has caused. . The force with which I wrote was rooted in sadness over the loss of microtonal nuance in American vernacular
music, and a similar loss in the raga music of India, and in the shock of seeing the beginnings of the same thing in maqam music.
I don't know why you think we have a quarrel, Brian; I don't think we do. Your teaching methods are admirable and are not under attack from me. Of
course different people learn different ways and of course one should use any tool available to become a better musician.
I don't understand the significance of your point that Fernand was the one to mention the tuner, not you. I addressed my rhetorical question to a
quote from his post, not to one from yours. In response to requests from several forum members for help in tuning and help in finger placement I wrote
that our brains and ears are better than tuners, provided we use them. You agree with that so what's the problem? We do disagree about whether what I
said or how I said it amounts to dogma. |
Okay, Jody-- I apologize if I misunderstood what you were getting at. I understand why you felt the need to be so insistent, I share your view on
the loss of nuance in much American popular music and for that matter, classical music. Though the case is, I think, not quite as dire as you indicate
once you step out of the more commercial areas--I believe we are having a bit of a renaissance with regard to subtleties of intonation. After all, ET
is unnatural and people tend to revert to pure resonances when they can.
The disconnect of many people's ears is pretty profound, however, and I think one has to be careful in saying "our ears will do the job if we just
learn to use them". While 100% true, the difficulty in learning to use their ears after a lifetime of neglect will cause many people to give up if
not provided with additional assistance to ease the transition. Of course there is a danger in relying on a tuner that an individual will just read
the tuner and not listen--that has to be guarded against.
But just saying "use your ears" without any practical suggestions on developing the ear is not terribly helpful for many people.
I don't particularly think we have a quarrel--as I said before we agree on the details. Using a tuner would never be my first (or second)
suggestion, but for students with serious difficulties it can help provide a usable reference, as long as they know to use their ears foremost and to
move away from the tuner as soon as they can.
cheers,
Brian
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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Well said, Brian.
best wishes,
Jody
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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All of this acrimony! And all this (be)moaning ... For all the talk of "ears", how is someone without a teacher supposed to develop intonation without
a framework or feedback?
A good tuner is not a $5 box with yes/no lights. It shows WHERE a played note lies, not just whether it is or is not an ET "D".
Pitch falls along a frequency continuum, but display in Hz is not too informative. So a tuner can be set up for the center notes of an ET scale, or
pythagorean, or a specific maqam, or whatever reference grid you want to set up, and then it shows deviation of what you sing or play from those
reference notes down to tenths of a cent.
It's up to the player to at least know where the notes of a given maqam or scale are supposed to be. The tuner only shows where your notes are
landing, how repeatably you can play them. I'd say that's helpful, it's feedback, and feedback creates a cycle of reinforcement. If you can't quite
hear it, without confirmation you can keep missing the note a thousand different ways, and not even know it. Nobody is going to "just look at the
tuner", that makes no sense.
Is someone here suggesting that such frequency measurements are inaccurate, and that their hearing is beyond what the electronics can resolve?
Or is the idea that such feedback is irrelevant? What then is suggested as a way to confirm correct intonation?
The finger placement method does not take into account the huge anatomical differences among people. If a teacher tells you "no, you must spread your
fingers a little wider", that's the same kind of feedback. If you don't have a teacher the tuner can do that job, and is pretty essential to get
started.
But the real issue is that a student has many options available, even if no teacher is on hand.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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Yes, tuners such as these would be helpful.
| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | All of this acrimony! And all this (be)moaning ...
A good tuner is not a $5 box with yes/no lights. It shows WHERE a played note lies, not just whether it is or is not an ET "D".
Pitch falls along a frequency continuum, but display in Hz is not too informative. So a tuner can be set up for the center notes of an ET scale, or
pythagorean, or a specific maqam, or whatever reference grid you want to set up, and then it shows deviation of what you sing or play from those
reference notes down to tenths of a cent.
It's up to the player to at least know where the notes of a given maqam or scale are supposed to be. The tuner only shows where your notes are
landing, how repeatably you can play them. I'd say that's helpful, |
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