DannyJeremiah
Oud Lover
Posts: 15
Registered: 6-11-2012
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Sukkar Oud | Model 213 Buzzing
Hey Everyone this is my first post, i have read heaps on this forum. i have a OudSukkar model 213 with Pyramid strings orange package. Ever since i
have bought the oud i have changed 3 sets of strings thinking the strings are wrong or not suited for my oud. The problem is that the oud has an
unclear, ugly buzzing sound, it seems like it comes from the bridge. i attend Oud lessons with a teacher and he said that there is nothing to worry
about because it is new. please help, Thank you Danny...
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Danielo
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 7-17-2008
Location: Paris
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Hi Danny,
and welcome !
Please be more specific :
- is it a high or a low frequency buzz ?
- does it buzz for open, fingered strings or both ?
- does it occur for all strings ?
good luck !
Dan
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sylvainbd
Oud Junkie
Posts: 404
Registered: 6-7-2005
Location: France - Nantes
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Hey Danny
Welcome on mikeoud forum !
A lot of oud have a buzz effect on soundboard, particulary turkish oud. This effect is researched !
Could you send a video link or audio sample ?! We could say if it's normal ...
musically
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Sukars are known for a clear and loud tone, so it's unusual. But have you adjusted the action? If the action is too low, it will buzz, of course. Your
teacher may not know it's adjustable. So let me assume you have not tackled adjustment.
First measure and write down the action at the neck-body junction, the average clearance of the strings above the fingerboard. If you don't have a
suitable measuring device, like a small and accurate metric ruler, or a digital caliper, you can use the coins technique, slipping small stacks of
coins to see what clears under the strings. If you have US coins, these are the rough equivalents:
Action height under strings:
2 dimes = 2.5mm
1 nickel and a dime = 3mm
1 nickel and 1 quarter = 3.5mm
2 pennies and 1 dime = 4mm
2 Pennies and 1 nickel = 4.5mm
3 dimes and 1 penny = 5mm
If the action is 2.5 mm or less, that could easily cause some buzzing. At 3.5 mm you shouldn't have any, and at 4 mm you get into high action, where
the strings should sound very very clean. If your action is already high, and you have buzzing, it could be unrelated to the action, or you could have
an uneven fingerboard, but there's probably not much point in raising the action further, except to familiarize yourself with it, or if you happen to
love very high actions. If your action is medium to low, you should try raising it.
Reach with you hand into the soundhole by pushing the bass string out of the way, and locate the butterfly nut up against the headblock where the neck
attaches. Then while very gently pulling the neck back, loosen the butterfly nut about 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn. You want to be pulling on the neck a
little to even out the tension and relieve the stress on the nut. Imagine this: the Sukar neck, if the butterfly is loosened all the way, leans a
little forward/up, and it's the butterfly nut tightened on the threaded rod that pulls it back, so it's angled a little back from level, where it
should be. So there is always some force against the washer/butterfly nut. Pulling the neck back (gently!) is especially important when you tighten,
so the nut isn't doing all the work, but it's best to do this whenever you adjust the butterly nut. Then release the neck, maybe work it gently a bit
back and forth, and then let the instrument settle. After 10 minute or so, check the action and see if it has risen. If it has not, go back and loosen
the nut all the way, to see what happens. You can experiment with the action to see if it cures your buzz, and you will want to find a good balance
for playing anyway.
Just remember that as you tighten, never go past "finger tight", don't use tools.
There's a point past which the neck has "bottomed out", it's when the nut won't tighten any more, and tightening the nut further will only strip the
threads or break the little nail you can see on the back of the neck, that serves to immobilize the threaded rod, which otherwise would spin freely
and prevent adjusting the nut. If your Sukar action does not go as low as you would like, and with settling that sometimes happens, you (or someone)
will have to pull the neck and file the mating surfaces, so the neck can be pulled back further. Look at the diagrams and photo, it's best if you have
a clear picture in your mind of how it works before you adjust it.
(threaded rod pulled out)
Now, if you would post some video or sound files, we might be able to at least tell you if it's "normal", and maybe help locate other possible causes
of your deathly buzz.
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DannyJeremiah
Oud Lover
Posts: 15
Registered: 6-11-2012
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Thanks heaps everyone...
the buzzing sound is mainly at the 2nd course from the top...
It seems like because the strings are thicker, that they clash together, i think...
i expected paying so much for the Oud that i wouldn't have these problem with the instrument.
i am gonna try these few suggestions, thank so much...
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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"The top" meaning high pitch or towards our face? Courses are normally numbered, 1 being the highest pitch. Anyway, without sound files or video
there's not much anyone here can say.
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DannyJeremiah
Oud Lover
Posts: 15
Registered: 6-11-2012
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I emailed Arab instruments.com and told them about the buzzing, they told to remove the nut and place a thin plastic under the nut.
i tried playing around with it a little but that nut is impossible to remove without destroying the Oud, Any Suggestions?
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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These Arab Instruments people are talking nonsense. Most oud nuts are held in by the tension of the strings and a touch of glue. They are easy to
remove, and shim. Anybody who knows Sukars knows that Sukar nuts are wood, more strongly glued in and removing them (while it can be done) can be a
chore. And the nut only plays a role in the timbre if it's badly made. It should normally be left as it is, it's just fine, and that's not what
controls the timbre. After all, when you finger notes, the nut is no longer involved, is it? There are all sorts of tricks that can be pursued, but
instead of that, when you ask people and they take the trouble to answer, why don't you try what's been suggested? The Sukar is designed to have the
action adjusted, and unless there's something wrong with the oud, or the strings, or the player, THAT's what controls whether the timbre is buzzy or
percussive/clear. After you've raised the action you'll know more about where it's coming from.
Also pls look at the questions Danielo asked you. You could have a specific problem and we're trying to help you narrow it down.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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If the sound seems to come from the bridge (which may or may not be the case), have you examined the ends of the strings to see if they may be
buzzing?
Sometimes the piece of string extending from the loop on the bridge is touching the bridge, another string, or the face of the oud in such a way that
it causes a buzz when played. This can usually be corrected by cutting the strings as close as possible to the loop.
Your oud teacher said it's nothing to worry about, maybe heed his advice and give it time? Have you had him try playing it? Does it still sound bad to
you? If not, then the problem is your technique, which will improve over time.
The ArabInstruments suggestion could be relevant if it was only open strings that were buzzing. If that's the case, an easier fix is to wedge a piece
of the thinnest string under the strings next to the nut, this raises them up slightly (also usually makes tuning easier).
The Pyramid orange set should be fine,I doubt it's a problem with the strings.
If all the strings are buzzing both open and fingered, you could try Fernand's suggestion and adjust the neck.
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damascene_oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 143
Registered: 4-28-2007
Location: Damascus
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Hi Danny,
To cut the long story and make it quite clear. I have Sukkar's Oud two. I love it so much, it has the quality of sound that i love.
BUT i had the same problem, buzzing comes when i play particular notes.
I took it to Ibrahim Sukkar, who inspected it for me and told me that yes it is a problem in the bridge and fixed it for me.
That was like 3 years ago.
Now i have the same problem again, and i'm thinking of taking it to another oud repair shop.
So yes as far as i know, Sukkar's Oud tend to make such an annoying buzz.
So better if you have someone to check it for you.
Izzat
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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Having a pro look at it would be nice, but if Danny lives somewhere without oud-knowledgeable shops, he doesn't even have the option of "have someone
to check it for you." A guitar technician might try, but generally has no idea how an oud is supposed to be set up, or sound. And unfortunately
shipping the oud back to Arab Instruments in Israel is a very costly proposition. If there's nobody local who can do it for him, Danny really should
go through the steps, try to mute different strings, play on them up and down the neck, check/adjust the action, note and describe what happens in
each case, and together we could try to narrow down what the cause might be. A loose brace under the bridge can happen, but there are lots of other
possibilities, some of them very simple to remedy. There are people here who can help, but without very complete info, "get it looked at" is all we
can say.
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DannyJeremiah
Oud Lover
Posts: 15
Registered: 6-11-2012
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Hey everyone, i am going through the steps slowly to fix this sound problem.
I live in Sydney, Australia and yes their is no one local that i can find to assist me at the moment, maybe someone might pop-up in the near
future.
1 - first step i did was play around with with the action, and i found no difference.
2 - next step is to change the strings, maybe high tention strings or something a bit thinner than the Pyramid orange package.
my oud teacher wants me to tune them fadgcf or eadgcf low to high (top to bottom), but on the g note the string always breaks. so i can not get it to
g?
i was told that those strings are tuned cfadgc and when i do tune it to those notes, the strings feel very loose and the g - string sounds really bad
and out of tune.
Honestly i am new to this, i am keen to learn with limited resources in Sydney.
Another person on this forum recommended Labella strings.
i will post a sound sample soon, thanks everyone....
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DannyJeremiah
Oud Lover
Posts: 15
Registered: 6-11-2012
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Just to add to my post---
when i try to tune fadgcf the wound metal strings start to separate exposing the nylon underneath.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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Danny,
You cannot tune strings a fourth higher than you are supposed to. The strings will break and/or you will damage your instrument.
Strings on oud are supposed to be fairly loose (compared to guitar, mandolin, violin, etc). It's part of the sound. Being loose has nothing to do
with being out of tune.
If you want to tune F-f', then the LaBellas or the Aquila 57O or 59O would work, or Kurschner's sets for high f'.
You have to get a set designed for the tuning you want to use.
Who is your teacher?
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DannyJeremiah
Oud Lover
Posts: 15
Registered: 6-11-2012
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He is nobody well known, his name is Naim Shdeid.
I am starting to think that i may have damaged the oud!
I have watched heaps of videos on youtube, i noticed that the sound that comes from the oud is loud, clear, strong and responsive.
My Oud has a everything opposite to what i described, i do admit i am not a good player (very new to this) but even when he plays (my teacher) the oud
is kind of quite and still has that buzzing or 'clashing of strings' sound.
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
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Hi Danny,
mmmhhh a bit of a problem you've got there....Brian's right, never again please try to tune a set designed for Standard Arabic (c'g'D'A'F'C) to High
Arabic (f'c'g'D'A'F) because apart from the strings snapping, you'll end up ruining the bridge, which might become detached because of the undue
pressure.
Fernand's advice seemed to be a good one, it's worth pursuing that avenue.
My first oud was buzzing all over the place because of the low action, and on the space between the nut and the rosette it actually was stopping the
note from ringing. That problem I solved by taking it to a luthier. You haven't got that option, but do you have someone who repairs/makes Reinassance
strings instruments (lutes, thorbe, citterns, that sort of thing) nearby? Sidney's a big city, you're bound to find someone like that on the telephone
directory. That could help immensely and it's almost as good as an oud repairer.
I solved the buzzing problem, eventually, by putting Pyramid high tension, you seem to have the opposite problem! I think it could be quite helpful if
you record a video with the webcam of yourself (or better, just your fingers on the neck or on the soundboard) playing a few notes so that you could
post it and people could see what the problem is and advice you in the best way.
A certain degree of buzzing is to be expected in an oud, it's one of the charming features of the instrument, and it increases when you put a new set
of strings.....the thing that you should clarify is: how strong is the buzzing? Do the notes ring despite it of do they stop dead? Is the buzzing
coming from the neck or from the bridge?
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