RubabPlayer
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Barbat vs. Oud: Opinions?
Hello,
We were asked to look for a Barbat for a student here. We had also been researching Oud options for our band, and now I am considering the Barbat as
an option as well.
Are there any Barbat players here? I would love to hear your thoughts about the instrument vs the range of Ouds. From what I have been able to find,
there seems to be a distinctive Persian style of play that is quite different than Oud. But I have also heard the same style played on Oud.
Would love to hear your thoughts.
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John Erlich
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What about Richard Hankey, AKA, "Dr. Oud?" His web page: http://www.droud.com/index.html He is an oud builder in Washington state (USA) who has been to Iran and has built at least one barbat-style
instrument.
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Dr. Oud
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While Persians use the word "barbat" for all oud styles, there has been a distinctive design developed recently that resembles the Turkish
laouto/lavta in that the ratio of the neck is longer than the conventional oud. It places the neck block at the fifth node point instead of the
fourth. There was a distinctly different style barbat depicted in old Persian paintings, but that instrument style passed out of use during the
Islamic expansion into Persia.
Many Persian oudists still play conventional ouds in any case on conventional Turkish or Arabic style ouds. Persian music is based on the "Radif", a
system of 7 modes called "dastgah" with 6 minor modes called "Avaz". Each dastgah or avaz contains traditional melodies called "gooshes". These are
intended to provide a model for the musician to improvise or compose for ensembles. Persian music is played in one dastgah or avaz thoughout the
song, with a few modulated passing notes, but not modulated from one mode to another like Arabic and Turkish music.
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spyblaster
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as an Iranian learner, I have been playing what you say for one year. actually, you are talking about one instrument not two. those long neck ouds
have poor sound due to their very small bowl which doesn't have enough volume for 13, 11 or 10 strings. i should also mention that the same method is
used to play and teach for both. although Behroozinia says it's different.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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Khalid_Salé
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I've been trying to dabble a bit in the radif on the oud, using Hossein Alizadeh's recordings on tar and setar as a guide. But the oud sort of feels
under-used, since everything in happening on the top three strings and not much elsewhere. Would an Iranian Barbat player play the Dastgah e Shur with
finalis G, or would he shift it to D to make it more like the Arab Maqam Bayat, and so use a bit more of the oud's deep tones?
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RubabPlayer
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Hi Khalid _Sale, I love Alizadeh's work, especially his Shurangiz work. Would love to hear what you are doing.
Hi Spyblaster: From a non-Oud player's perspective, I find Behroozinia's work to be very different from Oud style and technique. I see much more
influence from Persian approach to other strings such as Tar and Rubab there. But just my thoughts.
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RubabPlayer
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It is interesting to see how Persian focused musicians and Arabic or Turkish focused musicians view the difference.
To an outsider, unfamiliar with the instruments and their origins may simply confuse the two as different builder designs of
the same thing.
I would liken it to the difference between the Shinnai Shamisen and the Tsugaru shamisen. Structurally similar, one larger than the other,
tonally very similar, playing styles quite different, but to an outside observer more or less the same thing. While to the invested viewers
not at all the same. Shinnai players will argue that the Tsugaru is a folk instrument, while their smaller Shamisen is a classical instrument
for example.
I have heard similar discussions about Kurdish vs. Persian Tanboor, or between various types of Dotar.
To me, someone very familiar with Persian music, I immediately see the elements of Persian music in the performances on Barbat.
Somehow similar sensibilities as the Tar, Persian Robab etc… While I don’t see those elements in Oud performances. But this applies
to Persian musicians using either instrument.
Sound wise, I hear a distinctive difference between the Mohammadi level Barbat and the Oud. To me they are as different instruments as
a Turkmen Dotar vs a Persian Dotar, though I could play the same piece on either. The tone, the timbre etc… are different to my ears for the
Barbat and Oud. Especially so for the Mohammadi and similarly designed instruments.
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spyblaster
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well, seems like you have been focusing on persian music very well :-)
yes Behrouzinia technique is much different to what you see from Arab oudists. thats becoz he uses Tar techniques on the oud. he used to do the same
with regular ouds b4 the long neck oud(what you call persian Barbat) was invented.
i also agree with you about musical elements, but these are not related to his instrument either. just listen his old works in which he has used
regular ouds. don't you feel the same elements? as a test, you can ask an Arab oudist play the long neck one. i have seen the result of such a test
when Nassir Shamma played the long neck one. what i heard was a Nassir Shamma taqsim!!! nothing was changed except the sound quality.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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RubabPlayer
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Hi Spyblaster. I think you are exactly right. There are really two things at work here, I believe. Though again I am new to Oud so viewing as an
outside observer.
1. Persian players like Behrouzinia are definitely bringing Persian classical elements to the table in their playing. I see elements of Tar and Robab
in his style.
Likewise in the recordings I heard of the Arafati Barbat the performer was clearly coming from an Arabic Oud reference and made the instrument sound
very much in that vein.
2. I think there is a subtle but different tone to the Oud vs. Barbat for some instruments. I have now heard instruments from four makers. Two are in
the Mohammadi Brothers basic long neck design and using hard nut and saddles. One is the Jafroudi Barbat Shurangiz which is another story entirely.
And the Arafati and which was far more akin to Oud but with a slightly compressed sound like a Lavta.
Again this is just to my ears. But I see them as different in the same way a Kurdish Tanboor and a Persian Tanboor are. Same basic instrument but with
a different quality to the sound because of the design. I would never give up my Kurdish Tanboor for Kurdish music. To me the subtle difference is
really there and my Persian instrument just doesn't work for those pieces for me.
But I also would agree that you can play both styles on both instruments. Absolutely. And probably better for someone wanting to do a range of music
to go with a well made Oud rather than spend the money on the Barbat.
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RubabPlayer
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By the way, I took the leap and ordered the Mohammadi. I managed to find a used model that a customer of ours passed on. So we jumped that the chance
to get one of their instruments at a reasonable price.
Mohammadi Brothers are unbelievably wonderful instrument makers. I have been a fan of their Shurangiz and Robab for a long time. But their prices are
really prohibitive and it is very hard to get an instrument from them.
The sound really finalized it for me. It was clear and open, I think thanks to the saddle and nut material. It still has amazing sustain and depth in
the sound. But lacks the ambient tones that I think are more present in Arabic Ouds. My band mate calls it that "wom wom" echo tone.
For us the instrument needs to fit into an ensemble with other acoustic strings, frame drums and some electronics. So clarity is a big help in sitting
down well into the mix.
IMHO the Arabic Oud sounds best to me when it is the center piece. And the Turkish when it is playing a key lead role when in ensembles. But both
don't work for me as much if they are buried in a mix. I guess I love their sound when it is at the focus of the music.
But in Persian Ensembles I found the recordings of the Mohammadi and similar instruments seem to fit down into the mix without being lost or adding
too much ambience to the overall mix. And I found I was equally happy listening to it as a solo a lead or nested in the mix.
But again, I am new to the Oud world and bringing a lot of baggage from other instruments to the selection process. But looking forward to giving it a
try and see how we get on.
But I will say this. 100% I will be working to get my hands on a decent Turkish or Arabic Oud later for solo work or just to play.
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