oudista
Oud Lover
Posts: 10
Registered: 10-28-2011
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mics used for live performance for oud with band
Hi everybody, i ´m playing in a group with these instrument: derbake, bass guitar, electric rythmic guitar (clean) clarinet, violin and oud (of
course  . I have sukar model 205. We will have live performance soon and i need
some good way to amplify my oud. I really don´t want to use pick-ups, for the same reason i don´t like electroacoustic guitars (for me, the sound is
far from the original, poor on harmonics and nasal, not warm, i don´t know,i just don´t like it)So i´m lookin´for mics option. I don´t have
money to go for a km 184(adel salameh and Joubran brothers use it) or dpa or akg mics. I have seen good price for these ones: shure pg81, at2020,
shure 16a(used), at3035, and the dynamic sm57. I ´d reed allthe post here and there´s so many diferent and divergent opinions. Some say condenser
is best option, some say there´s not because feedback problems, etc. So, what can you tell me about my particular situation??, thanks a lot, sorry
for my horrible english and the extended words, best regards
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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You can make any mic work if you have control over the EQ. This is key. It's more important than the native coloration of the mic. Since it's too
difficult to deal with EQ at the PA board, here I what I would suggest: get two cheap mics and an inexpensive little mixer with decent mic preamps and
EQ. Like, say, a Behringer with some effects, like the $100 Xenyx 1002FX.
You put the little mixer next to you (I assume you're sitting), and feed the PA with one output pair, and send a separate monitor feed so you can
control your own monitor level. That gives you a lot of control. With two different mics on the oud and a mixer/EQ you can get good timbre and
feedback control by cancellation between the two mics. This approach is much better than shopping for one "ideal" mic, and having the PA guy make it
sound bad. Even a smaller e.g. 802 mixer would be fine, but that 1002FX looks very versatile, and having the effects is probably worth the extra few
dollars.
Granted, Behringer doesn't make the sturdiest stuff, but it sounds quite good, and for the price you can afford to replace it. As to mics, there are
many inexpensive ones now that are quite decent. A live situation always entails some rough treatment of equipment, so I would never use an expensive
mic on stage. There are often 2 for 1 deals like this:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/electro-voice-cobalt-co4-i...
That whole setup would cost under $200. Sometimes they give you two very different mics in a package, like Audio Technicas, that's ideal. In reality,
if a mic is reasonably clean, with EQ and some effects you can make it sound like anything you want, a little hiss on a cheap condenser is inaudible
live, and if you have 2 mics on the oud at different positions and angles, you can truly work wonders.
If you want a single mic recommendation, the rugged Sennheiser 421 is hard to beat for stage, it's not as "honky" as an SM57.
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
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Fernand, another of your priceless nuggets! This might just work! It makes perfect sense, yet I never thought about it.....much much better than
looking for years for that elusive one mic that will make your oud sound natural (which never happens, by the way).....thanks for sharing, man, much
appreciared!!!!
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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I've had very good results with the AKG411 (you stick it inside the oud with some putty) and with the MXL 991 (aka 603) and 993 mics (thin pencil
condensers with good off-axis rejection).
The AKG 411 can get pretty loud without feedback and has a very natural sound (slightly mid-heavy, but that usually balances well in a live
situation). The MXL mics are very even and work in medium volume situations.
The AKG is about $140, the MXL about $100.
Fernand's idea of a small mixer is a good one (especially as it will provide the phantom power the mics need). For gigs without a PA, I use a small
behringer mixer with a single behringer PA speaker ( Behringer B210d Active 220-Watt 2-Way Pa Speaker). They sound good, and no complaints so far
(though Behringer has a reputation for short lifespans).
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RubabPlayer
Oud Maniac
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Registered: 5-20-2009
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We play Rubab, Shamisen, Dotar, Baglama an Tanboor using a variety of microphones depending upon the level of the venue's sound.
For small places that you cannot have great control over the audio, or the sound people are not professionals, we stick to SM57s. The latest
generation of those are really quite practical and you get decent sound without much rick of feedback.
But not the kind of sound you dream about. Just practical decent sound.
If you have a decent sound person and not too much high volume on stage, then condensers are really better. We use AKG C3000B large condensers for
Shamisen and Rubab especially since they have strong resonance. These mics pick up a lot of detail in the sound and render the actual sound quite
well.
They are picky mics in tight or loud environments and feedback will be a problem unless you have a good engineer on the mixer.
But if your set is relatively quiet and acoustic volume they work brilliantly.
Good luck!
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oudista
Oud Lover
Posts: 10
Registered: 10-28-2011
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HI, guys, thanks a lot for your advises, Fernand, I´m glad about you tell me because I had thought before about behringer mixer!!!!, in fact i have
the xenix 1002(with no efects) http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/behringer-xenyx-1002-mixer... i was thinking to use it with the condenser mic that i ´ll get. But i was no sure if that could work. By the way my idea was to use the mixer for
both guitar and oud,(i play both instrument, not at the same time of course xD) and send it to a guitar amp,so i can get control for both instrument.
could that be a problem?
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RubabPlayer
Oud Maniac
Posts: 89
Registered: 5-20-2009
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Hi Oudista. It is good advice to use a small mixer. We do that too. I have control over more EQ and FX settings on each song right at my side. And I
run separate instruments sometimes when the PA has too many limitations for us.
Behringer is ok. We use it because they are cheap and sound ok. Don't make recordings with them, but for live I think they are fine for this purpose.
Stay away from cheap Yamaha's they are dreadful. Mackie is best if you have the cash.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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I know Behringer's reputation, and yet have never had any of their gear fail. I think people maybe are a little rough. And for all the talk of "not
for recordings" I've use their little mixers as part of many recording setups. It's the same op amps etc as are used in more expensive gear. I've
never bothered to go in and swap the (probably) FET op amps for some better bipolars, because those little mixers sound pretty good the way they are.
@Oudista, if you can make it work with a guitar amp, great. But they are not flat audio amps, they are designed for power, and tend to have a specific
Frequency Response and input circuit optimized for very high impedance (magnetic) pickups, quite different from a PA amp, so feeding any mixer into a
guitar amp is not a match made in heaven. And if you want the oud to shine it may require more EQ compensation than what your mixer offers.
No problem feeding the (I assume electric) guitar signal into another channel of a mixer, next to the oud's mic ins, BUT 1) a guitar is better matched
to directly connecting to a guitar amp, you may even have to use a little Direct Input (DI) box for the guitar because the typical input impedance
should be around 1 Megohm, and as I recall the Behringer's line-ins are closer to 10K, and that usually ruins the way the guitar sounds, and 2) the EQ
of course will be very different for the oud.
Feeding a good quality signal from a mixer into a typical guitar amp is a little like playing CDs through a telephone. I would much prefer to go into
a stereo PA system.
If your guitar has a preamp, no need for a DI. And if your guitar amp is actually more of a flat boutique amp, designed for connecting instruments
with pre-amps into it, it could work OK.
I still think it's important to use more than one mic on the oud, say one pointed at the bridge, another at the soundhole. That gives you two very
different sounds to balance with. Wish the 1002 had a phase switch on each channel, because that's the great feedback killer. You COULD wire one of
the mics with phase reversed. When you mix two sources, one with phase flipped, they would cancel each other completely at 1:1 if not for the
different placement and characteristics of the two mics. In practice you can get some very interesting (stereo) effects that way, and you can usually
find a ratio where feedback is remarkably well suppressed.
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oudista
Oud Lover
Posts: 10
Registered: 10-28-2011
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Fernand, you ´re right about guitar amp and oud, bad idea, my english is very basic, so i don´t understand somethings you say, what is PA? , other
way to say it?,what is phase? i understand you recomend two mics, and the position, but i don´t undersand the way of make it sound outside, i have an
2rca to 3.5 stereo cable on the mixer, where is it go then? i really know a <b>shoot</b> about sound system, that ´s not a strong in me,
and my english neither, so i´m breaking my head trying to understand all this, thanks a lot anyway, regards
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RubabPlayer
Oud Maniac
Posts: 89
Registered: 5-20-2009
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@ fernandraynaud Have to disagree on the Behringers for recording. Having done 20+ years of recording on a tight budget you can really hear the
difference in clarity and quality between Mackie and Behringer mixers
even at the lower end of their market.
The simple thing is what do you want it for. For live everyday sort of events a Behringer is more than enough. And I have never had one fail on me
either. But
I would never use one in a studio setting. But then again I don’t know a single studio in Seattle or Tokyo that uses their kit for recording. There
are obvious better options
and the studios go with what sounds best in their budget range.
I see mixers as just as important as the choice of audio interface for getting sound into the digital world, the microphones you use and the acoustics
of the environment you record in.
But for this thread, I agree with you Behringer is fine. I use them, most bands I know here do. Why put your nice Mackie at risk at a live house when
the sound in most places is
not that perfect to start with. Behringer mixers are cheap, the FX models have decent reverb for live and they hold up just fine.
We never use guitar amps for anything ethnic, wired or not. The sound is dreadful usually. Direct to the PA ( the club or event space’s sound system
) from a mixer is far better and you can leverage the EQ to help with the
sound. And some little mixers have decent Phantom for the condensers. Takes a little more time in sound check so the engineer can distinguish settings
between instruments on the same
mixer. But we have had very few problems and the instruments sound a lot more natural. Only catch is that you need good monitoring in the venue since
there is no amp.
A lot of Gypsy and classical guitar guys I know do this too.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Quote: Originally posted by oudista  | | Fernand, you ´re right about guitar amp and oud, bad idea, my english is very basic, so i don´t understand somethings you say, what is PA? , other
way to say it?,what is phase? i understand you recomend two mics, and the position, but i don´t undersand the way of make it sound outside, i have an
2rca to 3.5 stereo cable on the mixer, where is it go then? i really know a <b>shoot</b> about sound system, that ´s not a strong in me,
and my english neither, so i´m breaking my head trying to understand all this, thanks a lot anyway, regards |
PA is "public address", the main house sound system. That's the best place to connect to from your mixer. Line level (~1 volt) signal from little
mixer goes into main PA mixer.
Phase is polarity of signal. When phase is inverted, the wave goes down at the time it would normally go up, and vice-versa. If you mix two identical
signals one of which has phase inverted, they cancel each other, because the two add to zero at any point in time. But if there are time differences
between them, they do not exactly cancel, and as you adjust the ratio, the mixture gives unexpected effects, and feedback cannot develop so easily if
part of the signal is out of phase with what comes back from the speaker, so the feedback loop is lessened. Big mixers have a switch to invert phase
on any input. Just use the mics as-is, and tell the sound man at the PA mixer to try changing the phase on the stereo signal you feed him from your
little mixer, and see which position gives you less feedback.
The feedback "howl" is the signal from the instrument traveling through the amp and speakers and feeding back to the instrument, and then back out
again, so it starts to build up at the pitch that the instrument resonates at.
Guitars do not output a line level signal and they are weak drivers, so a guitar amp has a very high impedance (= high resistance) input circuit so as
not to load the guitar down. A Direct input box (DI) converts a guitar signal into a line level signal that can go into a mixer.
@Rubab, we could debate this for ages, of course different circuits sound different, even different cables have different sonic signatures, but
priorities depend a lot on the context. And I don't think it's quite as simple as "better" and "worse". Where you hear a pleasing character, and
enough difference to pay the price, I'm sure we can agree that by all means you should use what sounds best to you. I like the Mackies, the little
402 mixer even has a dual DI built-in.
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oudista
Oud Lover
Posts: 10
Registered: 10-28-2011
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Thanks F, now i got it all, my mixer doesn´t have phase switch, but i think with the double balanced output, there ´re will not problem. Now is time
to make some test, thanks a lot man, i really appreciate your willingness to help, best regards and thanks to Rubab to, regards to all, see you soon
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Glad if suggestions help. One of the tricky things is making sure you can always hear yourself, which is what a monitor feed is all about. Ideally the
sound guy will take care of giving you a speaker box with a mix on it that emphasizes your playing. But what if they don't? On the little mixers there
is often a "send" on each channel for effects, like reverb. If you are not using it for that, you can use it to connect to a separate monitor pointed
back at you at low enough volume so it doesn't start "howling" feedback. If you have nothing else you can even use a guitar amp for that, not good
sound quality, but better than not hearing yourself at all. You'll figure it out by trial and error, like everybody else. Best success!
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