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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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Mood: g'oud
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Quote: Originally posted by Giorgioud  | Omar Naqishbendi is my all-times favourite oud player, ever! I worship in The Church of Naqishbenndi. He was the bestest and he's never been
bettered......the fire, the passion, the risks he took in his impros.....man!!! He was IT!!! The BIZ!!!!
Ahhh man, that ragmakamtar sounds so gorgeous....... really really good,
have you patented it yet? Well You should! |
that's wonderful to hear you opinion on Naqishbendi... I've mentioned this before on the forum, but he was the first oud I ever heard and it floored
me in one second. I had to literally beg the owner of that cassette to let me copy it - and I listened to that cassette every day for years after
that! I still listen now and get the same feeling!
Until now I never actually heard anyone express a similar kind of admiration that I have for his playing. . . I cant understand why most people
consider him mediocre ????
Back to the metal fingerboard... yes it feels very smooth and responsive under the fingers... Another advantage is that even tho it is more
difficult to get it set right initially, it will certainly last longer and require much less maintenance than a wood board.
Regarding patenting the ragmakamtar??? Thanks G.O. ...I think that now finally I've accomplished the basic goal of getting an oud sound and a sarod
sound in one instrument which is NOT overly complex at all. I wonder if one day it might catch on somewhat --- ? it's hard to say. At the
moment I simply hope that the idea will catch on and people will start making and playing them and I am happy to encourage and help anyone who wishes
to do this.
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oudbsessed
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Well, if someone considers Omar Naqishbendi mediocre, I don't think he/she really understands what oudism is all about......I know that taste is an
individual thing and all that jazz, but calling such a player mediocre? No, there are some things that have to be rectified, where it's not any longer
a matter of individual taste. Some truth are simply universal. Omar Naqishbendi is one of the giants, and for my money THE giant. Everyone, even
indirectly, owes him a debt. Someone somewhere is copying somebody who copied Omar Naqishbendi, or started off copying him.......before being steered
towards more conventional routes........
Maybe it's because he was so unconventional in his approach......all I know is that I'm pining for more players like him....
You know Edward, the sarod-like quality of your instruments is very inspiring? I love the sound of the sarod, but to see it conjugated to an oud-like
structure is quite compelling to witness. It is a very generous attitude you've got, and yes, it's the right one under the circumstances....ideally,
we're all helping each other to progress (of course the more experienced more than the less experienced), and that alone is priceless.....
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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Mood: g'oud
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I totally agree about Omar N.!
Regarding the patenting... I have a feeling that the ragmakamtar concept is probably a bit too complicated to attract a mass market and therefore
would probably not be profitable to mass produce and thereby gain profit from a patent...
...it is a bit tricky to play:
1) to get the right tone I use a sitar wire mijrab on the first finger of my right hand... and hold the risha between my thumb and second finger of
my right hand. Take a while to get used to this.
2) to get the right tone on the sarod one needs to put crazy glue on the nails of the left hand - and this is where we lose most oud players since
almost all of them would never consider doing this.
3) to make the ragmakamtar really work it doesn't hurt much to have a lot of experience with both middle eastern AND indian music. . . . and these
days with average attention spans diminishing as we speak, it is only going to be a very few people who will take the time to do this.
But still I do hope that some musicians will give it a try.... it is a cool way for an oud player or a sarod player to widen horizons - and can be
interesting to hear what guitar player would do with it.
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oudbsessed
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Ahhh, it looked from the video like you were using a very short risha, or even a plectrum (maybe a long one like the one used by saz players...), but
no, I was wrong.....
Well, yes, it might take a bit of getting used to the technique, granted, but I can see that once mastered, the instrument might become a faithful and
ever-present feature in many a player's repertoires.
Me, for example, as I have this dual interest in Mediterranean/Middle Eastern/Arabic/North African AND spreading Eastward towards Hindustani, Afghani,
Pashto....it is something that I would like to consider at some point in the future........
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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yes, this is the point - - I am sure that slowly slowly, with time, (and I can already see this happening) Indian, and Middle-eastern musicians will
more and more recognise the similarity in their musics (modality) - and will also see that a very logical direction to be taken in their musical
evolution is, rather than looking towards "tempered Europe", to take inspiration from other "modal traditions".
and why not get it all in one instrument?
i think it really would take off - but the main problem, as I said, is that an already accomplished oud player has no desire to look like an amateur
on a sarod for 5 years while he gets up to speed on that - and vice versa... very very few are willing to put in the time to learn new skills - -
- rather most of us seem preoccupied with getting as much recognition as we can, as fast as we can, for what we already can do well.
Anyhow if you are ever interested to try, just let me know, cuz at the moment I have quite a few previous models sitting here at home gathering
dust.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
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Giorgioud, I agree that Omar Naqshbandi is an exceptional player. One's opinion about his music might depend on what one has heard. For instance
there is a recording of him playing dance tunes and songs that I got from the Traditional Arabic Music website
http://www.traditionalarabicmusic.com/Instrumental%20MP3/omar_naqsh...
where he is playing with percussion accompaniment. He pretty much sticks with the melody. How one will react to that depends on where one is "coming
from". On his French Lp he follows his taqasim with a composition. To my ears this is very nice playing because he is almost speaking the words with
his oud and the phrasing is very musical. But he doesn't have an attractive technique, by which I mean he doesn't show off or try to get the listener
to pay attention. He simply plays. As for the Lp, some of the music on there is intellectually challenging. Saba Husseyni makes some demands on the
listener for instance. But then on this same LP he begins his Nahawand taqsim rather sentimentally. He's full of surprises. And there are no
"fireworks".
For all his musical worth I can't agree that all oud players have been influenced by him even indirectly. Assuming that you mean all oud players who
came after Omar Naqshbandi ( you don't really mean he is so cosmic that he influenced oudists who recorded in the 1930s, right?) I think you are
overstating the case. I don't see or hear the aural evidence or the historical evidence. Maybe you can give some examples?
Edward, I also play sarod. I have some ideas about India and maqam but my time is limited this morning. I hope to comment soon. For now I'll say that
the links between raga and maqam are both deeper and more frequent than one might imagine listening to how raag sangeet and maqam music are sung and
played today. Looking at the past objectively reveals some surprises. I don't mean to be secretive or tantalizing, I just have to go to a dentist
appointment and after that I have to work all day for the next 3 days.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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Hi Josh
Regarding Omar, I guess I can only say, that with him or any musician for that matter - I think something gets missed when we (we all do this) analyse
with words a players music and playing. . . . just speaking for myself, and getting beyond all words - the sound I heard from that cassette with
him playing is responsible for me playing oud today. There was just simply a feeling that I felt and still feel that intrigued me so much that I
couldn't stop listening.
Strangely, I also have an old taksim cassette by Elgin Kiziley playing turkish taksims, which affects me almost or about as deeply at that Omar's
French LP. Now if you mention Kiziley these days to anyone, as being a great Turkish oud player, you will get laughed out of town! ...hmmmm
well, I guess I just have simplistic musical tastes or something. . . but that's just me. As a kid my favorite bands were Black Sabbath, Grand Funk,
and Nazareth.... so I guess that tells it all 
Please share more of your thoughts on the "modal overlap" after the dentist...
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oudbsessed
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Hello Jody,
ah, blinded by science....let me put my sunglasses on....a faultless analysis of Omar Naqishbendi, but unfortunately I fear I won't be able to reply
in kind. As a self-taught artist, I have not the theoretical knowledge to put it into words. I play music. That's how I (don't) eat (or eat very
rarely :-)). It would be great to be able to have the time to study theory in depth, but my take on the experience is that I must concentrate on other
matters. This frustrates me terribly because of course I cannot converse in theoretical terms. On the other hand I do have my special and unvaluable
advantages in this approach.......
Edward, you are quite right, it brings me to the matter that many musicians won't have the time to spend on learning the sarod in a sufficient way not
to be thought as amateurs.
Unfortunately, if you want to try and make a go and make a living (well, let's say more like surviving just on the breadline, that's my case) in this
"thing" which, apart from the differences we have individually, it all brings together people like me, you and Jody, conversing about this great
passion of ours, you realize that the time is limited. And the time has to be spent on establishing your name, fast. You know that of course, and I am
sure you agree.....
But Jody, it seems to me that many runs, to name one name, that Farid used to play, let's say on a maqam Kurd, were similar esthetically to
Naqishbandi, in spirit and content. I say Kurd because I have this vivid memory of a musical form that later I learned was the Kurd, played by Omar
and then after listening to Farid on the same sort of impro I thought: a-ha!
Yes, as Edward quite rightly said, some things cannot be explained...there's only the raw emotion....and I still mantain what I said about
him......because I feel it......
Edward.....when I was a kid I was quite into Black Sabbath and Grand Funk....in vincibus eruptum.....hahaha!!!!
What were you saying about the instruments gathering dust? Were you serious? I'd love to try one. Moreover, I am about to embark in a series of
performances with several outfits, plus illegal busking, and some serious recording (CD and downloads) so, you know, I would bloody well love to get
one and see how I can make it sound like me........what do I have to do in order to get one?
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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yes, I'm serious - I have made 13 versions now and only actually play a few of them... many need serious tweeking, some are just sitting, and a few
are completely ready for a new home. . . I am just too lazy to make soundclips - photos - and advertise. . . . . I somehow can't be bothered
until if and when I really 'need' some cash which luckily hasn't happened in a while. . . .
version #6 and #7 are definitely ready to go.... and some others almost ready. . . .
http://www.edwardpowell.com/rmtar.html
I can also build one from scratch which now takes me about 3 weeks for an undecorated one...
...the thing is that there is such a huge variation in playability, sound, and tuning, between all the completed versions that a guy really needs to
have it in his hands before knowing if he wants it or not.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | Doesn't it make sense that the vast majority of the sound comes from the bridge to the soundboard? I can't somehow imagine more than a small fraction
coming from the neck through the headblock when the bridge is so much better coupled to the soundboard. If that is so, the metal on the neck would
change the timbre but not the volume. No?
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Yes, Ferny I think you got it... I don't think the metal is greatly affecting the volume and blocking frequencies... but the metal does seem to
affect timbre. - not so much for the nylon strings, but for the wound strings the metal on metal vibration comes out sounding more hard and metalic
than a trespa or wood FB. I am not sure I like the effect too much, but on this "oud" the wound strings are used very little.
Also with higher action the is little difference in timbre - the harder tone only seems to become appearant with very low action.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
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1) descriptions and lists of ragas current in the 17th century often include names like Zangula, Husseini, Hijaz etc. These names survive today in
ragas whose current names are linked with well known raga names. There is Zangala Bhairavi, Husseii Kannada, Hijaz Bhairav. We know there were Persian
musicians at the court of Akbar, including players of tanbur. The link between Persian music, and the makam/maqam music of Turkey & the Middle
East has already been established. We should bear in mind that Persian music in the 17th century was not today's radif music. Survivals of the older
Persian music can be found in the classical music of Kashmir called Sufiana Kalam. There they use the word Maqam in preference to Raga though both
words are used.
2) There was an Arab presence and and Arab Music presence in Bombay for most of the 20th century. Jewish musicians from Baghdad have been in Calcutta
ever since there was a Calcutta. Then there is the case of Gauhar Jan, arguably the first Indian classical music recording star. She is said to be of
Armenian descent. She recorded 600 sides including songs in Arabic.
3) the problem with compatibility of Raga music and Maqam music is (at least) twofold. First is the problem that Raga music does not modulate to
different tonal centers. But it may be that at one time it did. The second problem is in the area of plucked string instruments. At present sustain is
a virtue in raga music but can be a problem in maqam music. But older sitars and sarods had less sustain than they do now and the music that was
played reflected that. I'm not saying (here) which is better or worse.
4) I agree that compatibility through a modal and microtonal sensibility is a better match than through cheesy quasi-western tempered approaches.
5) just as Maqam theory in Arab music provides fewer names for microtones than are in practical use traditionally (and as some Turkish music theories
stipulate more microtones than are in practical use) modern Indian raga theory with its 12 tone silliness disregards the microtonal reality of the
older raga music. Even the 22 sruti theory is inadequate to describe what accomplished raga musicians actually sing and play. What I'm getting at
(rather poorly I'm afraid) is that there is a receptivity to minute microtonal variety in both maqam musicians and raga musicians and there is the
ability to hear and reproduce very small differences in pitch and to use this to produce effective musical results.
6) who is "Josh"?
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
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I was never trying to minimize the musicality of Omar or deny the effect his recordings had on either of you (Giorioud and Edward) , I was just
offering a tentative explanation of why others might not be similarly affected, I also find the recorded music of Omar Naqshbandi, especially his
french Lp, to be very arresting. Sometimes when I am playing compilations I have made of different oud players playing one after another whenever Omar
comes on I feel a magnetism and a weight that is special. But that has nothing to do with history. The influence of one musician on another (and the
influence of one musician on ALL others) is, as far as I can tell, not something that can be *felt*. I will suggest an extreme and silly example to
show what I mean. Suppose, Giorgioud, I were to "feel" that you have not moved, or are not in the process of moving , to London (as you have mentioned
in recent posts). Suppose I were to *feel* you have actually moved to Reykjavik. If I were to feel this very intensely would it be any truer? For
Farid to be influenced by Omar he would have had to have heard him or to have heard someone who had heard him and had been influenced. Now I will be
the first to admit that certain events can have a ripple affect and move through time in all directions. Who am I to deny the connection of space and
time? But I am not ready to accept that a musical passage recorded by Farid Al Attrache in 1965 was influenced by something played by Omar Naqsbandi
in 1972. No amount of feeling can make this true. Do we know if Farid Al Attrache was even aware of the existence of Omar Naqshbandi? I'm not saying
he wasn't, I just don't know.
By the way, where can I hear a recording of Omar playing maqam Kurd?
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Fritz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 246
Registered: 6-14-2012
Location: Northest Germany
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | Fritz, another vote of admiration for your beautiful ouds!
I have a question. Doesn't it make sense that the vast majority of the sound comes from the bridge to the soundboard? I can't somehow imagine more
than a small fraction coming from the neck through the headblock when the bridge is so much better coupled to the soundboard. If that is so, the metal
on the neck would change the timbre but not the volume. No?
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Hi You :-)
I allways have been anylising the the "way" of the sound in very very small "parts of time"... meaning steps in acoustic movement... beginning with
the impulse of the risha stroking a string (course). The materials are complex... and it´s impossible to involve every fact in "calculating" the
sound... but I am trying to go a "special" way creating the sound of my ouds. This means... I take every part of an oud as a unique piece of material,
stiffnes, resonatability, with it´s own favourite frequencies... It´s also a question of the position of the impulse on the string !!! In detail
its very complex to explain, what I really mean... but the neck of an oud for example is the direct continuation of all of the body... the ribs, the
tob, fixed at the neck-block... and on the neckblock directly the neck... in order to "catch" a part oft the vibrations comming from the body and the
face of the Oud. So it has part of the sound... including the pegbox as a "brake" at the end of the neck... leading the sonic waves back in the neck
and further back in the body and the top...
The speed... in wich these "operations" will change the sort of energy going through the Oud, makes the sound characteristics. And every piece beeing
NOT of wood... so I think, will "disturb" some important features of the instrument and makes the oud going in distance to the really sound of an oud
created in traditional way. Such a changed oud will not be like an oud... more like a "new" sort of instrument...
And that´s, what E.P is making... an I think... he makes really good things :-)
May be I´m right or not... but in fact there are no really documented physics how an oud has to be built and the reasons for making some things so
and only so :-)
I hope, my english is good enough to explain such complicated things to native-speakers.
Best wishes
Fritz
Music is the food for the soul
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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Mood: g'oud
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Fritz, you are certainly correct in that every single piece and part of an instrument affects the sound.
...and also yes, I am not trying to make a traditional sounding oud - but something new and different, however it is very much inspired by oud (and
sarod).
Different materials give different effects, but also very important is weight. I have made instruments with wood necks, but much too heavy, and this
HEAVY neck very much blocked certain frequencies (kind of "absorbed" them). So I very much agree that necks affect the sound majorly. I thing that
part of the reason an oud sounds so rich and gentle is that the neck is so light and short that it does not "swallow" very much of the soundboards
resonance.
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Fritz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 246
Registered: 6-14-2012
Location: Northest Germany
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | Fritz, another vote of admiration for your beautiful ouds!
I have a question. Doesn't it make sense that the vast majority of the sound comes from the bridge to the soundboard? I can't somehow imagine more
than a small fraction coming from the neck through the headblock when the bridge is so much better coupled to the soundboard. If that is so, the metal
on the neck would change the timbre but not the volume. No?
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I wrote a very detailed posting to your question... but it hasn´t been postet allthough I got the message of "successfully posted"...
Music is the food for the soul
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Fritz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 246
Registered: 6-14-2012
Location: Northest Germany
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell | Fritz, you are certainly correct in that every single piece and part of an instrument affects the sound.
...and also yes, I am not trying to make a traditional sounding oud - but something new and different, however it is very much inspired by oud (and
sarod).
Different materials give different effects, but also very important is weight. I have made instruments with wood necks, but much too heavy, and this
HEAVY neck very much blocked certain frequencies (kind of "absorbed" them). So I very much agree that necks affect the sound majorly. I thing that
part of the reason an oud sounds so rich and gentle is that the neck is so light and short that it does not "swallow" very much of the soundboards
resonance. |
Hi Ed :-)
That´s exactly what I meant :-) I try to make every neck as light as possible using "Cedrela" for the core, sometimes laminated to get a very stiff
consistence if the wood of the body "requires" that. The "reflection" of the sonic waves going through the whole instrument I precisely check by
holding the oud at different points and give an impulse to the strings... You´ll find that the sustain and the spectrum of the frequencies will be
very different depending on wich part you fix by holding the oud. The best results you´ll have while adapting the top (when mounted ! ) in thickness
in different areas. Sometimes the effect will need a very small change in thickness, sometimes you´ll have to prepare the whole top to get the best
results. But one point of interest is that the neck isn´t only the neck... the head (pegbox), assembled nearly rectangulary on the end of the
neck... is a very stiff "brake" in all directions for all arriving sonic-waves, but also reflecting these ! And this fact "doubles" the "killing" of a
rich part of the spectrum... Equalizing and optimizing in construction and dimensions is the secret :-)) Thats my opinion :-))
The pegbox nearly doubles the length of the neck... and the angle of the box makes it very rigid and does have many effects to the sound... and not
only good ones :-) But on some ouds these effects are welcome... and let them sound as the luthier or customer wants to !
Btw : Your little posted concert is great... :-))
Fritz
Music is the food for the soul
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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Yes, I think a lot of oud makers and players simply take for granted the basic established construction of the oud and therefore attribute practically
ALL the tone to the SB and bracing. These people should try one time to take a great sounding oud, and then just for fun attach a very heavy neck
(like a guitar neck) to this "oud" and hear the difference.
Because the oud has been designed so well, with such a light neck and back, we tend to forget that these elements are that way to allow for great
resonance in the SB therefore with the current design the SB for sure IS the most important.
I am really not sure about anything - but I think there is no coincidence that my ragmakamtar version that for sure sounds the best has not only the
smallest necks of any of them, but also each neck is identical in size and weight to eachother...
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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I thought you guys might be interested to hear this example of my metal fingerboard. I think it DEFINITELY gives a particular timbre... definitely a
metalic touch to the tone - I quite like it... it is different than a standard oud tone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBXVpKQwDOQ
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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I thought it was interesting that when Rahim AlHaj released that Ancient Sounds CD, they mixed it so both oud and sarod are panned to the middle, and
it's hard to tell them apart. The playing technique is more characteristic than the timbre itself. It's a little like the Turkish vs. Arabian
dichotomy. Yes, they are different, but not so dramatically that a clever player can't make one sound a lot like the other. JT manages to make all
ouds sound like ... JT shredding.
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