farukturunz
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NECK REINFORCEMENT AND TRUSS ROD
I've been putting a pair of carbon-fiber welts into the necks of my ouds notwithstanding the category, even the Reduced Price Point Line ouds.
Some time ago my work partner Suat Çetincan made an adjustable truss rod and we put it in the neck of our 1000k ouds.
No one can see the adjusting bolt's head without examining the peg box carefully.
Suat made the prototype truss rod in the workshop using the present tools but we are thinking of having them made by a contract manufacturer.
Very soon!
Stay tuned 
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Aymara
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That's interesting news ... I'm curious to hear/see more about it.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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farukturunz
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Soon inshaallah 
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Edward Powell
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...but why?
An oud's neck is so short and string tension so low that I think the neck itself will never bend. Doesn't the truss rod add a lot of extra weight?
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farukturunz
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Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  | ...but why?
An oud's neck is so short and string tension so low that I think the neck itself will never bend. Doesn't the truss rod add a lot of extra weight?
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It bends in time my friend.
An extra weight is so small and no one has felt it.
Yurdal Tokcan liked that oud and wanted to play it for some time. He is so sensitive to feel very small differences if there is; but he did not notice
that small extra weight. )
He is very happy with all the specifications of that oud.
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Edward Powell
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yes I will never forget that day yurdal came into your shop and sat there for hours waiting for you to shave off 1mm of thickness of the back of the
neck! I find it hard to believe he can actually feel such a small difference on a neck with is already so tiny.
Well, I guess your truss rod is very very small, and not much like a guitar truss rod which is very heavy.
Nice idea! I look forward to trying this out! ...and seeing that truss rod design!
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Aymara
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That's the first problem. The second is, that many oudists live in regions nowadays, where the humidity changes drastically over the year.
So I'm happy to see that Faruk is once again researching a topic many luthiers didn't see a need for, so far.
But I'm a player in search for low action on an arabian oud, something which seems to be more common with Turkish oud players.
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An extra weight is so small and no one has felt it.
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That's good news, because of the very light bowl of the oud I would have expected the opposite. I think, that's the reason Master Faruk decided to use
carbon-fibre instead of metal.
BUT ... isn't carbon-fibre a too rigid/inelastic material for this purpose? I'm not shure.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
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Ah, very interesting! so we're definitely on a path to a more optimized oud, leaving the instruments of old far behind.
It's like with guitars, increasingly people want a very flat/thin neck. A truss-rod can of course correct bending/settling of the neck itself. But
any correction of the "action", as guitar-players call it (the string clearance above the fingerboard), can only be slightly touched up this way,
before the reverse curvature causes buzzing.
Master Turunz, have you considered providing some adjustment of the action at the neck joint, like Fadi Matta and Sukar, so neck-resetting would no
longer be needed over time? Or do you feel the soundboard will never distort, and the player has no need to raise/lower the strings?
And might you also use a saddle, so that the height above the soundboard can also be adjusted by shaping the saddle?
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Aymara
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An alternative to this wish is a floating bridge. This might become a second interesting discussion 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Edward Powell
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Aha, I missed that the truss rod is made from carbon fiber - yes this will lighten it up, and I am sure the "Swamiji Svat" has made it very small and
ultra light.
My opinion is"sure", if you can add a very light truss rod, then "why not"? But I still think that it is not too much necessary for an oud. My guess
is that over time under the strings tension perhaps it is not so much the neck itself bending but rather the ENTIRE NECK bending forward as the back
itself bends forward and the SB caves in a bit... so my guess is that an adjustable neck might be an even better idea (?).
And yes, while we are on the topic of "borrowing" from the guitar there are a couple of other things I would suggest:
1) Adding kerfing around the upper edge of the bowl to make the gluing surface to the SB wider. It always frightens me when I see typical ouds just
before the SB purfling is added, and you can see that the SB is no longer even in contact with the ribs! This seems to me incredibly risky and there
is no way this kind of construction will survive many decades. Personally if I use purfling I always use kerfing for support.
2) Saddles on the bridge... I have been doing this for years and years to allow for adjustability. . . . but finally realised that with a
properly made oud, adjustment is rarely necessary.
One thing I really love about an oud is it's simplicity... on an emotional level something feels comfortable to me when there can exist such an
instrument with is very simple and can be easily made with simple hand tools.
Of course if high tech "improvements" are possible and easily done and added then why not? But let's also not end up losing sight of the fact that a
simple old-fashioned oud is simple enough to be built at home with simple tools.
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farukturunz
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| Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell | | Aha, I missed that the truss rod is made from carbon fiber - yes this will lighten it up, and I am sure the "Swamiji Svat" has made it very small and
ultra light. |
No, no, I did not say the truss had been made of carbon-fiber!
Suat made it from steel
Any cons? and any pros?
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz | | Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell | | Aha, I missed that the truss rod is made from carbon fiber - yes this will lighten it up, and I am sure the "Swamiji Svat" has made it very small and
ultra light. |
No, no, I did not say the truss had been made of carbon-fiber!
Suat made it from steel
Any cons? and any pros?
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hmmm... Faruk, what kind of truss rod is it? Is it the compression type which is just one stick? That's the kind you and I were trying to install
in my ragmakamtar in 2006... remember? This kind probably doesn't work as well as the new types which consist of 2 rods which do not have to be
fixed at one end... this type works better but are heavier.
I am not sure if CF would be strong enough.
My guess is that a perfectly engineered SINGLE ROD steel (perhaps aluminum???) truss rod made from a very very small rod would be enough and also very
light.
Keep in mind that CF is SUPER SUPER SUPER TOXIC! Please beware that you NEVER want to ever breathe in CF dust, so if anyone is workng with this
material make sure you do it safely... better yet, don't use it at all!
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fernandraynaud
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You're right, Eddie, that the simplicity is beautiful. But things are changing in that the cost of skilled labor is rising everywhere. Making a
refined instrument costs more. That amplifies the problem, as you want it to last. And e.g. resetting a neck gets costly in Western countries, now
typically $500 on a guitar. So it's almost inevitable that technology will be applied to make the oud more lasting.
The unfortunately common problem of the action rising will need to be more generally addressed. Fadi Matta is no dummy. The fingerboards will be
technically made more durable too, now that hard ebony is prohibitive. People like the "faster" flatter necks, so although traditional necks didn't
warp, thinner ones will, and reinforcements, and maybe truss rods, are inevitable.
But none of this need be very dramatic. It's one thing I love about Sukars. Traditional and spartan construction, nothing at all visible even, but
with the essential neck adjustment nut discretely tucked away in the bowl. Fadi Matta's is on the back of the neck heel.
My Shehata has what seems like a metal I beam in the neck, like an old Martin guitar, so it can be stable in spite of the much thinner build, and in
neither case did I even KNOW it was there! Thanks to that invisible I beam (pretty low tech, not even adjustable), my Martin's neck hadn't changed in
50 years, with about twice the total string tension of an oud. My argument is just that smart technology need not ruin the instrument.
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farukturunz
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(!)
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Edward Powell
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I think it is great to experiment and try everything possible --- however those new innovations that will stand the test of time and remain as
standard features, will be the ones that in fact were good ideas.
Time will tell.... as usual.
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Edward Powell
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(!)
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fernandraynaud
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farukturunz
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I consulted with Suat this morning if it would be proper to post some technical drawings of the truss rod he designed. He did not seem willing to do
it, and his evaluation of my posts dealing with soundboard construction and "Brace Tuning Method" was rigorous: He said "you are making some childish
things...You are not supposed to give away all you secrets!"
My dear partner!!! He is really a fair person and has not the notice of the book I am reading nowadays is " A Good Man is Hard to Find" by Flannery
O'Connor and listening to Catharine Macphee- Never Give all the heart...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pKCZS7vfEQ 
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