Khalid_Salé
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Extended Taqsims in Persian/Indian Style
Hello all,
I'm hoping to find some recordings of Turkish/Arabic maqam improvisations that are extended, more like the Persian/Indian style of a couple of players
and perhaps a percussionist, improvising together for 20-30 minutes at a time. The only album I know of in the Arabic style that approaches this is
the Simon Shaheen / Ali Jihad Racy album 'Taqasim.' There are some good tanbur-ney duet albums in the Turkish style but they mostly contain short
taksims and pieces rather than extended ones.
Does anyone have any recommendations?
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David Parfitt
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These CDs may be the kind of thing you are looking for?
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/ebrahimi.html
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/nayeb-mohammadi.html
All the best
David
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Bodhi
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There are some recordings of Ostad Shahidi, just he singing and his Oud but that is Persian not Arabic.
Is there something in it, that Arabs and Turks prefer short pieces (short attention span ) or just a move towards western style pop music in the classical traditions? I don't think it was always this way, from what i've read.
The iraqi's often have longer pieces, but more often its a takht rather than a duet.
If you find anything post it here, im also interested.
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Brian Prunka
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"Taqsim" in Arabic means "division", called that (I am told) because it was traditionally played in between pieces or sections in a longer suite or
piece. It therefore was rarely an extended improvisational piece in itself.
I don't have a citation for this, but I have been told by several sources that taqsim have always been relatively short, and that they have actually
gotten longer in the 20th century as a result of the innovations of certain players, the recording medium's ability to present the oud well as a solo
instrument, etc. I do not think that extended improvisations, a la Hindustani music, have a history in Arabic music. Munir Bashir certainly pushed
the limits with 10-15 minute taqasim.
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Khalid_Salé
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Thanks fellas. I think it makes sense that the taqasim were traditionally short, given the name, rather than that they were shortened because of
Western tastes or something. I do love a long improvisation though, and maqam music is so suited to it - sometimes I'll sit down to play for a bit and
then look at the clock and realise I've been playing for thirty or forty minutes. I do hope there's some recorded stuff out there. Of course there is
Munir Bashir, I should have mentioned him in my first post to give more of an idea of what I mean.
I like this anecdote from Karl Signell about the great Neyzen Akagunduz Kutbay and the possible story of my favourite LP of his:
http://www.umbc.edu/eol/garfias/festschrift/broad_tastes.html
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David Parfitt
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Khalid,
Jamil Ghanim plays a couple of extended taqsims (~20 mins) on the "Arabesques" LP which Mike has uploaded here:
http://www.mikeouds.com/rare.html
The Salman Shukur LP further down that page might be of interest to you too.
All the best
David
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Khalid_Salé
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Thanks David.
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Masel
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i think a good explanation (my theory) is that persian music is based on the radif learned by your master, indian music is also similar to this i
believe. it is much less freely improvised, but it gives more freedom to a master musician to know the intricate details of the maqam and hold onto
one spot without "moving" too much. arabic and turkish taqasim is much more improvisation based therefore it relies more on spontaneous creativity
(you have the structure but you pretty much make it up as you go along, rather than have a known structure with known melodies and ornaments which
each person interperts in his own way) which makes it much harder to stay creative and create something interesting witout running out of ideas for
more than a few minutes.
however i am also very curious about this and would love to hear examples in arab style
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fernandraynaud
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The "Ancient sounds" CD by Rahim AlHaj (oud) and Amjad Ali Khan (sarod) might be of interest to you. It's an interesting idea, a pleasing enough CD,
and there are some long pieces.
http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Sounds-Rahim-Alhaj/dp/B001P7YDSW/ref=...
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David Parfitt
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That reminds me, there are also these oud/Indian CDs:
Hussein El Masry & Narendra Bataju (sitar) - "Between the Nile and the Ganges" (1 track - 53 mins 53 secs - that long enough for you?!?  )
Adel Salameh & K. Sridhar (sarod) - "The Arab Path to India"
Simon Shaheen & Vishwa Mohan Bhatt (mohan vina) - "Saltanah"
More info on all these here: http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/artists.html
David
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Khalid_Salé
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Thanks for the recommendations - I was going to mention Saltanah, but forgot it; it's nice to see there are others like it. I found the Rahim al-Haj
one but not the others. The Hussein al-Masri one sounds just the job - it seems to be out of print, though?
This is a track from a nice album from the Persians, "Dialogue of Ney and Oud" by the late great Hassan Kassai (ney) and Shahram Mirjalali (oud):
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=161652640525281
It would be lovely to find something like this in the Arab/Turkish style. I'm sure there are people playing it, but maybe not recorded?
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David Parfitt
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Quote: Originally posted by Khalid_Salé  | Thanks for the recommendations - I was going to mention Saltanah, but forgot it; it's nice to see there are others like it. I found the Rahim al-Haj
one but not the others. The Hussein al-Masri one sounds just the job - it seems to be out of print, though?
This is a track from a nice album from the Persians, "Dialogue of Ney and Oud" by the late great Hassan Kassai (ney) and Shahram Mirjalali (oud):
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=161652640525281
It would be lovely to find something like this in the Arab/Turkish style. I'm sure there are people playing it, but maybe not recorded?
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The Hussein el-Masry CD is listed as in stock here:
http://musique.fnac.com/a1118166/Hussein-El-Masry-Entre-Nil-et-Gange-CD-album
David
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Khalid_Salé
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Thanks David.
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Jody Stecher
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The raga musician creating an alap may spend more time than a maqam musician creating a taqsim not because either is more or less constrained than the
other, or more or less creative than the other, but because each is meeting expectations. The raga musician is expected —in certain situations —
to be able to extend a succinct musical idea for a very long time, and has been taught to do this; while the maqam musician is expected to be
relatively succinct in most situations. In north Indian classical music there is much to be memorized as a student. But as a mature performer the
best raga musicians are completely spontaneous. I have heard Ustad Farididdin Dagar sing Raga Multani dozens of times and each time it was strikingly
different. That's just one example. It's true that the Indian classical musician may remain in one tonal area for a very long time. But they also may
range over 3 octaves in one phrase.
| Quote: Originally posted by Masel | i think a good explanation (my theory) is that persian music is based on the radif learned by your master, indian music is also similar to this i
believe. it is much less freely improvised, but it gives more freedom to a master musician to know the intricate details of the maqam and hold onto
one spot without "moving" too much. arabic and turkish taqasim is much more improvisation based therefore it relies more on spontaneous creativity
(you have the structure but you pretty much make it up as you go along, rather than have a known structure with known melodies and ornaments which
each person interperts in his own way) which makes it much harder to stay creative and create something interesting witout running out of ideas for
more than a few minutes.
however i am also very curious about this and would love to hear examples in arab style |
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