elreyrico
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Sylivriano
Hi
In what makam/dromos is that popular song ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYePgorjHUM
When i try to play it, i hear nikriz.
But in the booklet of a cd of "En chordais", it is written that the makamis Mahur.
Can anyone help understanding that?
cheers
eric
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Microber
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I like that song.
Here is the version of Roza Eskenazi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4wTTPaFkgU
Robert
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DoggerelPundit
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Perhaps maqam is as maqam does.
-Stephen
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reminore
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maybe you'll hear the mahur better in the pretty version that roza sings that microber posted above...there is a modulation out the reminds one of
nikriz...
this music is from sylivria/silivri, - which stretched from the land walls of istanbul away westwards into thrace, which once had a majority greek
population...here is a link for a really nice sampling of this oud rich music...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5WLPKr7Mww
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hartun
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im very familiar with the last one you posted reminore. sylivriano more commonly known as rumeli karshilama. here in detroit our local armenian band
(nigosian) is very fond of that song and plays it as an armenian tamzara! then deveci which garbis and later richard hagopian made great recordings
of....the rest i have not heard before (except hassapiko) but wonderful music!
it is just my imagination or even when they play oud you can tell from the way they play that they are greeks....it has a different sound from arabs,
armenians, turks playing the same music....
harry
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elreyrico
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Hi
Thanks for your posts
Regarding rumeli karshilama I think that we are not talking about the same tune: Sylivriano is in 4/4 while rumeli karshilama is in 9/8
Eric
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reminore
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i wouldn't call it a 'greek' style but rather a regional style...sylivria or eastern thrace was the birthplace of many of the great musicians of
istanbul and the ottoman empire - the lyra/kemence player and composer vasilaki, and more recently, yorgos bacanos...unfortunately, the 'exchange of
populations' based on religion completely uprooted the majority of the inhabitants of this region (being greek orthodox) in 1922. they have since
relocated to many villages in greek thrace and the big cities...what is interesting about their music is that oud and violin are the central
instruments in village dance music as well as 'higher' urban music...there really aren't too many places one can see this...
if you like, take a look at this youtube clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5WLPKr7Mww
from a program of domna samiou's - a woman/ethnomusicologist who spent her entire life researching music in the field...here at 1:50, she films a
local band playing in their 'refugee' village near orestiada, just across the border from edirne-probably from the 80's. she was an amazing
woman...just for fun, here she is years earlier in a village in epirus, near the albanian border -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvbb1tl3Hmw
enjoy, costa
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reminore
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sorry for the wrong link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvbb1tl3Hmw
she thanks the musicians for coming to play with their father in the village, as they play keyboards/organ as professional' musicians, and
graciously came for this recording...this is from the mid 90's...
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Masel
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the song does have a lot of both nikriz and mahur, i don't think you could say this song is nikriz or mahur, but both.
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hartun
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Hello again,
Eric I'm sorry I wasn't referring to the original topic of the post but rather to the YouTube video costa posted which started out with sylivriano
karsilamas, that is almost identical to rumeli karsilama. Of course your original topic was a 4/4 syrtos I realize that. Costa I still don't see a
video of oud and violin....you posted the Epirus group twice. Great music by the way I had read about but never listened to that style before(epiros).
Costa I should say in response to "there arent many places one can see" oud and violin used for folk music.......that many Armenians from Asia Minor
play village folk music on oud and violin. Especially in the US. Or really only in the US. But I thought you knew Ara Dinkjian personally so you must
know that already..?
Harry
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reminore
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just lost the entire response that i had written! also have learned that the control button on my keyboard is not working, thus, the wrong 'cut and
paste' post above.
here is the correct one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SN72wf5ICo
harry, of course i realize what you are saying about armenian bands and their repertoire here in the states...but i have a feeling that the
orchestration was different in the 'homeland'...i know that the oud has a place in the repertoire of pontic greek music from western pontos (unye,
fatsa, kastamonu)...but that is the only instance i know of that the oud is considered a 'traditional' instrument in a folk ensemble...
sylivria was unique - many of the great musicians of constantinople came from it's villages on the thracian plains, and it's proximity to the city of
course played a large role in the transmission of style. for whatever reason, they were playing the oud heavily in that region before 1922. when
you think about it, manolis venios, the great innovator of the modern 'turkish style' oud, produced throughout the last half of the 19th c. and
into the first decade of the 20th, and it was during this half a century that the playing of the oud diffused outwards from the empire's capital.
what i do wonder is the following though, how much did the proximity of aleppo syrian/arab culture (and their oud playing) have an influence on the
armenians (and everyone else) living in the south...i would think that highbrow aleppan urban taqaseem music would not have had too much...but i know
little about the musical history of that region...anyone else?
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hartun
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Costa what a great video ms. Samiou is obviously the real deal. I have a great respect for the Greeks as they seem to study and support the music of
all different regions if Greek culture whether its the mainland islands Asia Minor Pontus etc. in the Armenian world everyone is obsessed with purity
and finding the so called true original Armenian music which they seem to think can only have one style despite the many regioms of historical Armenia
especially anything perceived as having a turkish influence is ignored at best by the self proclaimed cultural authorities.
In fact several areas of Armenia had oud and violin as their main instruments. Sivas and Erzincan are two that I can say for pretty sure. In the book
on sivas or in armenian we say sepastia it lists a certain herdem yeranos on violin and haji boghig on oud as playing at community affairs and
weddings. while the book on erzincan (yerzinga) says oud and violin as the most conmon instruments in town and notes that turkish songs such as
konyali (hani ya da benim alti dirhem pastirmam) were sung in armenian. They played violin with baglama in arapgir and Egin which was a replacement
for the kemenche (same as Pontic kemenche). Oud was also played by the armenians in kayseri and aintab although this may have been more in a classical
genre. now after the genocide in the US violin and oud became the main instruments even as early as the immigrant generation in the 1930s. And it
wasn't just the Istanbul Izmir musicians like marko melkon and garbis. The people of central and eastern Anatolia were using them as well at least
once they got to America. You can see this in numerous photos of compatriotic picnics. From what I can tell as you said the oud spread from polis to
the rest of the empire in the early 20th century. Had it not been for the genocide it probably would have spread even more but at any rate it
completed its conquest of Armenian folk music once the people were in America. Now as to the possible Aleppo influence. It seems many of the early
Armenian oudists in the US were from Diyarbakir, there could have been an influence from Aleppo to the nearby northeast in Aintab (gaziantep) urfa
(sanliurfa) and Diyarbakir but I have no idea. The problem is that the Armenians in those areas don't speak Arabic but Armenian and turkish. so songs
probably not but music in general and taqasim it's possible. I know the Assyrians in New England were from that region and often hired Armenian
musicians in the early days so their influence was from the Armenians of kharpert ( elazig) and Diyarbakir. Maybe an Assyrian could help us here but
again I don't think they spoke Arabic but rather Aramaic and turkish with some Armenian . .also lets take a look at the recent release to what strange
place we have Syrian violinist naim karakand an immigrant from halab playing kemani tatyos' rast pesrev and Armenian violinist Harry hassekian an
immigrant from not too far off marash playing tanburi cemil bey's setaraban saz semai.... so both are influenced by Istanbul composers....
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reminore
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'pure' anything is a joke, whether it is blood, culture or music...and is the language of fascism - cultural or political! good luck trying to
determine what is 'armenian' and what is not - especially for a people that have lived side by side and among other nations/millets for millenia
(probably)...
my wife's entire family are originally from the mountains of trabzon - and she is constantly finding similarities between armenian/kurdish/pontic
greek dance steps and rhythms. not to long ago we played/backed up hasmik haruntyunian from the shoghaken ensemble, and she and my wife were
constantly discovering overlapping steps and moves...
with the armenians, it's tough...the diaspora difficult problems - refugees always seek to create a 'pure' and 'untouched' past...all to that the
distillation of old style playing with influences of the host society, and you have a mess. this has happened in greece as well, but has been
offset greatly for nearly 20 years now by a vigorous explosion of interest in eastern 'makam' based music. instruments that were almost dead in
greece such as the oud and the politiki lyra/klasik kemence are thriving today. the lavta, which was near death in both greece and turkey is enjoying
a (relatively of course) huge revival and reappraisal. (the lavta was identified with the greek minority of istanbul - the advent of the oud crushed
its popularity, and then the departure of the greeks from that city signed its death warrant!)
the musical bridge has also led to a peaking interest in the 'other'...via the music, young greeks and turks are connecting like never before -
overturning old 'national' stereotypes and really reaching out. yurdal tokcan is married to a greek girl from a black sea greek refugee family (he's
from there too!) so much music and knowledge is being generated, collated and shared today as opposed to 20 years back...information on old
instruments, research being done on early makers etc. - all very positive. i won't get into the political dangers of all of this, because this
would become an academic thesis! it is a shame that for the armenians the situation is so much more difficult...not only does the genocide hang over
everyone's head, not only is there an eastern/western armenian divide, or the the sovietization of 'armenian music' in armenia, but that freaking
pop music threatens to drown out the wonderful oud and violin sound...
it seems i will always have 78 posts on the oud forum...
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hartun
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Don't even get me started on Armenian pop music....one if the problems in the Armenian community is that during the genocide they fled west to Lebanon
France and the US. So there was no influence of their music in Eastern Soviet Armenia consequently during the next 50 years the western Armenians
started listening to this music being produced out of soviet armenia and thinking well our music doesn't sound like that therefore our music must be
"turkified" and they started emulating the eastern music....ironically not realizing it sounds just like Azeri music. I brought this up to an Eastern
Armenian who was questioning the choice of turkish Armenian music at a dance... He seemed to buy my argument but then he told us "most eastern
Armenians are going to say Azeri music sounds like a ours because they "stole" it from us but you western Armenians are playing different music so you
must be copying the Turks!!!! How illogical is that whether you think there is such a thing as pure music or not. And then there's the obvious fact
that ottoman music is influenced by pre turkish middle eastern music whether its Greek Armenian Assyrian Arabic....Armenian udist roupen altiparmakian
used to become angered at the suggestion that his music was turkish and said "Irents parere mer musikin pargav" (their words got stuck to our
music)...in other words iits our music merely sung in the turkish kanguage....an exaggeration but truer than the idea that we just copied the
tutks....all i do is listen to 78s unfortunately like I said not enough of it has been digitized....I have posted some stuff i personally did on my
website keftimeusa@blogspot keep in mind though i dont have a very good digitization program and the written material on the site I've simplified for
the general public...I'm not surprised you found similarities with hasmik Harutyunyan...she is from moush background so that's far eastern Anatolia
close to Pontus.... I'm a big fan of her stuff although that's one of the regions the oud never penetrated to
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reminore
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well, i really enjoyed playing songs like ververi and mayroke with hasmik - crazy caucasian timing that is exciting to play in a group - but i don't
feel 'possessive' of that music in the way that i do of the 'western armenian', greek, turkish tradition, which i just 'feel'. i need to troll
through your blog - i'm impressed already - you putting yourself in the firing line with your position on the music...i had to laugh and forwarded
the link to harold hagopian...who by now is on vacation just outside fresno - which by all accounts must have been a very intense armenian
backwater...
everybody on the forum should go through and listen to the links you have included on the blogs - there are some real gems there...
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reminore
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powerful song, the 'derzor dasdanaci'...i looked around the web a bit and came across these lyrics (on a turkish site actually!) from the acoustic
version by vartan sabazian you have on the blog...
derzor çöllerinde yaralı çoktur
gelme doktor gelme çarası yoktur
bir allah´tan gayrı hiç kimsem yoktur
dinibin (?) uğruna giden ermeni
derzor çöllerinde bayıldım kaldım
harçlığım tükendi, evladım sattım
ana ben bu candan bıktım usandım
millet uğruna giden ermeni
koyver ana koyver gideyim çöle
kollarım çısçıplak araba köle
söylensin destanım dillerden dillere
evlat uğruna giden ermeni
...who translated the last line...i only ask because the word ugrun is a dialectical word for 'stealthily, secretly (i just looked it up)...i'll ask
and see how some friends make sense of it...
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Giorgioud
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Hi Eric,
Thanks for the link, what a beautiful song!
It seems to me that the main phrase is an imaginative composite of two maqamat: Nakriz (as you rightly guessed), in F, with the two tell-tale notes A
flat and B, and the second part, maybe a Mahur, but could also be an Ajam, always in F (distinctive note: E). Surely it is not a complete Mahur, for
it would otherwise have a Abb (double flat) instead of Ab (flat), anda B flat instead of B....
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hartun
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costa, at this point maybe we should ask them to move this to its own thread. derzor collerinde indeed is a very powerful song. unfortunately it's
completely forgotten in modern armenian culture. "ugruna" comes from word "ugur" and it means "for the sake of" in other words armenians are going to
the desert for the sake of "millet" nation or "din" religion...thats how i understood the song although I don't speak turkish....
thank you for the kind words about my blog. if i'm putting myself in the firing line, i don't care. the nationalist armenians can say what they want,
but they didn't invent being armenian and im not going to give up the heritage i received from my forebears in exchange for recognition by people who
use 19th century german ideology to make a religion out of being armenian, or rather what they set up being armenian to mean. i'm satisfied with the
christianity of my ancestors, thank you very much.
hasmik and shoghaken ensemble i enjoy very much compared to the music that came out of ("russian") armenia in the soviet era. but you're right its
still a lot of it caucasian music. the anatolian music, those are my roots. whether its armenian turkish or some of the greek. i am fascinated by the
videos i can find on youtube of kappadokian greek music and dancing....my fathers side comes from the same region....a lot of them are using oud as
well... also the videos of manos koutsaggelidhis
nothing like this greek rebirth of makam music would happen in armenia because they don't know that music there..actualy they have their own "makam"
music which is more related to persian, georgian, and azeri music.......but at the same time there doesn't need to be a "rebirth" because it never
really died. it has only been frowned upon by the cultural authorities but it never died it just went into exile in the US.
unfortunately i have never visited fresno, but yes it is quite well known
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