Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
Posts: 78
Registered: 6-4-2015
Location: Germany / Leipzig
Member Is Offline
Mood: contented
|
|
calculating measurements of ribs
Hey guys,
now that I'm building my second oud, I stumbled over some problems.
I made a new mold which is slightly smaller than the first one.
There's a way to calculate the measurements of ribs mentioned in the oud construction manual I own. But everytime I end up scraping and chiseling
until one rib fits to the other. (after that, the rib doesn't look like the pre calculated pattern)
Is it possible to exactly calculate the ribs that one could cut them out and they fit actually ? How do the builders with no mold know how wide the
ribs should be ? Do some of you think that a computer program could help designing an oud mor accurate ?
Please help me with your ideas and experience. If there's no solution, building of ouds will stay very frustrating for me. 
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
You are talking about rib width at a certain height? I can help you.
Measure the oud mold at various height: 7cm, 9cm, 15 cm, 19cm, 10cm. 19cm is the highest point of the oud
you have to decide how many ribs you want.
Example, you say 17 ribs. C = 2πr = 2πยท19 ≈ 119.38052
119.3 /2 = circumference of diameter = 59.69
59.69 / 17 ribs = 3.51cm this is the width of each rib at that height of 19cm.
so what you do then is you establish the width for each of your heights (5cm, 7cm, 10cm, 15 cm, 19 cm, 13cm, 5cm) and you create a "master" rib
template which you never use on the oud but you use to measure the other ribs.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Alternatively you can make a jig from the bowl or sound board longitudinal profile and trace the master rib profile from that as shown here:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=15437
and here:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8488&pa...
Each rib will still require hand fitting to its neighbour for precise fit (using an inverted jointer plane or sanding board to obtain the correct
joint angle) as bowl building proceeds. This method of course only applies to bowls of symmetrical geometry and semicircular cross section which old
ouds (and lutes in particular) hardly ever were.
For non symmetrical bowl geometry a solid mold is required on which the rib profiles are individually laid out in ink. Each rib (measured from the
inked profiles) then is of unique geometry and must be individually cut and fitted. For this type of bowl it can help to fit dark wood 'lines' between
the ribs so that any slight discrepancies in the rib joints will not be noticed.
|
|
|
Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: better than before
|
|
The ribs must be fitted, so the calculated dimension is not the cut dimension, rather, cut the ribs at least 3mm/18in wider than the calculated
dimension for trimming to fit. Cut a few extra ribs wider in case fitting takes too much off the width. For the top ribs, cut the curve on one edge
only, leaving the other edge square to trim when assembled.
Fit each rib carefully so there is no stress/pressure when gluing them together. Pushing the rib to fit together will result in a distorted bowel and
inherent stress more likely to crack open the bowel when bumped.
Measure the arc length at each step of assembly and compare it to the calculated arc length for the number of ribs assembled, then adjust the next
rib to match the calculated arc length. After fitting a new rib to the assembled rib edge, flatten the other/open edge on a flat sanding table or
inverted plane and check the flatness on a flat table/board. If the arc length is short, use a wider rib next, if the arc length is too much, remove
some of the flat edge to match the correct arc length.
Add some extra width to the last rib to trim the top edge while leaving plenty of rib material to attach the face braces, a little extra depth of
the bowel is a good thing.
Separator strips between the ribs provide some stress relief as well as a pleasing appearance.
|
|
|
Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
Posts: 78
Registered: 6-4-2015
Location: Germany / Leipzig
Member Is Offline
Mood: contented
|
|
Thanks a lot guys !!!
Samir thats quite a nice way to calculate !! Thank you for the formula !
It provides an accurate measuring method of the rib for every position on the mold.
I felt sometimes like the 4 or 5 measurements taken from the molds cross sections weren't enough. Very helpful !
That jig is very interesting Mr Downing, is it common for lute building ? I never seen it so far... I will definitely give it a try for the next oud
!!
Thank you for sharing such a precise instruction !
At last Dr. Oud thats exactly what I am doing right now but it felt like there may be a easier way to achieve the goal of nicely fitted ribs 
It is described that way in the german manual I own. But measuring the arc lenght is a helpful hint !!
Now I have more than I expected, three ways to calculate/fit the ribs for the body.
I will find my favorite method sooner or later.
Thanks again for taking the time gentlemen ! I'm sure this threat can help many other newcomers in oud building !!
Btw I have 13 of 19 ribs attached on my oud #2,
maybe one day I will have a standard procedure in making bowls as acurate and beautiful like the many luthier masters.
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The jig can only be used for symmetrical bowl geometries that is semicircular cross section and bowl profile the same as sound board profile. I do not
know of any old surviving lutes that match that criterion - usually the cross section is either a flattened profile (particularly for the very large
lutes) or deeper profile for the later period lutes. Also bowl sections tend to be relatively deeper at the neck block (this provides a stiffer
structure more resistant to bending under string tension.
I have seen the same non symmetrical bowl geometry in some of the old surviving ouds. Check out my work on oud/lute geometry posted earlier on this
forum for examples.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=11186&p...
As I mentioned before this traditional style of bowl can only be constructed using a solid mould. There is no easy way - just practice and experience.
|
|
|
Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: better than before
|
|
There's been no mention about how to generate a flat pattern for the ribs. I suppose that using a solid mold with lines drawn on for the joints would
require a tracing paper pattern for each rib, then transferred from the paper pattern to a flat rib blank.
For symmetrical ribs, I've used a flexible steel rule bent in a curve around 3 clamps or nails, with the widest part at the distance from one end.
Remember to allow for the small circumference at the neck block. This pattern is cut in a Masonite/plywood pattern, then used to trace each rib flat
pattern. Always cut a little extra for trimming and a few extra ribs in case you break some during bending The top rib is cut on one side only,
leaving the top edge square, to be cut after fitting the last joint. I make the top rib wider with material added at the neck and tail block. This
leaves a wider top rib, helpful when holding the oud and providing a deeper bowel that provides deeper bass resonance.
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
For the asymmetrical bowl (flattened or deeper in cross section etc.) requiring a soild mold, once the first central rib has been shaped and glued in
place to neck and tail block the other ribs are then cut and shaped individually to match as the bowl building progresses. The geometry of each rib is
determined by direct measurement of the rib profiles marked on the mold transferred to each rib blank. For a flattened lute bowl section only the
first central rib will be symmetrical in geometry - the others may, in extreme, be crescent or even 'S' shaped!
Canadian luthier Michael Schreiner's blog is about historical lute and guitar building - with lots of detailed images of historical instruments - but
has much practical information that might be of value to oud makers as well. He deals briefly with asymmetrical bowl mould construction and rib
shaping here:
http://schreinerlutesandguitars.blogspot.ca/2011_09_01_archive.html
...... as well as in his blog of May 2012.
The tool that he uses for marking out the rib profiles on a lute bowl mould is a plastic 'Blending Curve' available from Lee Valley, Ottowa - see
attached scanned image from an old 2013 catalogue. I find this tool very convenient for drawing odd shaped geometrical profiles.
Details of lute rib measuring from a mould and shaping (on the mould) with small planes and files is also described by the late Robert Lundberg in his
'Historical Lute Construction' book.
All easier said than done!
[file]37154[/file]
|
|
|
narciso
Oud Addict
Posts: 27
Registered: 11-15-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: caleta
|
|
The flat pattern for the ribs can be treated mathematically... both the symmetrical and the asymmetrical cases
Working through this myself I found it quite challenging, but probably not something that was beyond the historical luthier?
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Even if a luthier was able (or motivated) to mathematically calculate and plot the individual flat rib profiles, transfer the patterns to wooden rib
blanks and then accurately and smoothly cut out each rib, he would be no further forward. This is because each rib has then to be hot bent to the
exact profile of the mould and the edges then planed to be a precise fit at the correct angle.
There is no easy, fast track, way to making a bowl. The most direct and simplest way is always the best. Facility and speed comes with practice in
making many bowls - a skill that a luthier, who is trying to make a living from his work, must master.
|
|
|
nickB
Oud Admirer
Posts: 2
Registered: 10-17-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
Hello, I have just joined your very interesting forum!
I have built a couple of lutes, and I think you are addressing here one of the main issues one immediately encounters when starting out
My two cents worth is that calculated 2d profiles for the ribs are useful, but you should not straightaway cut the ribs completely down to the
profile. Make sure as Dr Oud says to leave a little room for adjustment and filing as you fit them (with the help of the jig)
Exact calculation is more subtle than SamirCanada's proposed method. But it is very much the kind of calculation that is offered by the standard CAD
packages. The very popular Rhino3D program is very good for straked shell structures in general, of which the lute bowl is an interesting example
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
This article on building lute bowls with flattened section published in FoMRHI 35 years ago may be of interest. See Comm 303.
http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-021.pdf
Note the non symmetrical rib shapes in 1.3
|
|
|
narciso
Oud Addict
Posts: 27
Registered: 11-15-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: caleta
|
|
I came across another relevant FoMRHI article which may be of interest on this thread, it describes how to mathematically calculate the shape of the
rib (for non-flattened bowls)
Comm 799 A method for the construction of the rib template for a lute, by D. Kershaw
http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-047.pdf
|
|
|
narciso
Oud Addict
Posts: 27
Registered: 11-15-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: caleta
|
|
Niskanen lute designer
Here is a rather nifty online lute plans program published fairly recently I believe, complete with rib templates etc.
It is written by lutemaker Lauri Niskanen of Niskanen Lutes (Finland)
https://www.niskanenlutes.com/lutedesigner
|
|
|
snajjar99
Oud Admirer
Posts: 1
Registered: 11-20-2024
Member Is Offline
|
|
Hello,
I know this post is almost a decade old, but I thought I would share a tool I made that might be helpful. I've created a program that allows you to
customize the shape of the bowl profile, and then it generates an accurate rib template on a PDF, which you can print and cut. You can use my tool
here:
https://oudrib.com
Note that this only works for a oud bowl of semi-circular cross-section.
I hope this helps someone.
|
|
|
quark
Oud Admirer
Posts: 1
Registered: 1-19-2025
Member Is Offline
|
|
Hi Samer, Thank you for creating the rib template generator. I think it's pretty nifty. This is my first Oud build and I did not have anything to
guide me. I was planning on using the free fusion 360 non commercial version to try and stretch out my rib profile to get the rib template. Rhino is
too expensive and I wasn't sure if fusion would allow me to do what I needed to do.
I'm sure there are other methods to get the template accurately, but I wasn't able to find any. My design is symmetrical so meets the criteria for
your generator. Using your tool what I see in the pdf version seems accurate. I shall see when I print the template and cut it how close it gets me
to the final shape. Just wanted to let you know that your effort and contribution is being used. Thank you,
|
|
|
Greg
|
Thread Pruned
1-24-2025 at 04:30 PM |
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
