Habibi
Oud Lover
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Registered: 3-11-2017
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Thoughts on Lebanese luthiers
My Mrs studied Oud in Aleppo, she has an old Ibrahim Sukar Oud it's probably about 20 years old or so, impossible to tune and so she's stopped playing
it. I want to get one made for her and I'm looking for thoughts and your kind advice on the following.
Smaller bowl for a female - any thoughts on how this may effect the sound?
Sound board - I'm told spruce is the best but notice a few of the top makers using Cedar- any opinions
Pegs-I want to install fine geared tuning pegs, I think there are 3 out their Wittner/pegheads/knilling. Are they any good?
- pick up with Jack- I'm told Schaller is good- anyone use different pickups?
Luthier - I'm undecided about the luthier
Nazih Ghadban - spoke to him sounds like a really lovely guy and his Ouds look amazing - I loved the sound of his Nahat model 1322 over other Nahats
he's done.
Fadi Matta- Charbels choice of luthier anyone have any experience of his Ouds that he sells to the general public or are they all similar in quality.
the Mrs doesn't like the look of the floating bridge Ouds she likes the classic fixed bridge with the decorate rosette.
Albert Mansour- I understand this is Marcel's preferred luthier but would be interested to hear any experience anyone has with his instruments.
Thanks folks.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Quote: Originally posted by Habibi  | | My Mrs studied Oud in Aleppo, she has an old Ibrahim Sukar Oud it's probably about 20 years old or so, impossible to tune and so she's stopped playing
it. |
Sukar ouds are often fundamentally pretty good instruments. So it may be worthwhile to consider having it repaired.
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Smaller bowl for a female - any thoughts on how this may effect the sound?
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Since ouds for women are rare, my experience is anecdotal, but it seems to me that a shallower bowl may lose some bass response and overall loudness.
But a well-made woman's oud can still be excellent.
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Sound board - I'm told spruce is the best but notice a few of the top makers using Cedar- any opinions
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Personally, all things being equal, I have been most impressed by wide-grained spruce soundboards. Cedar has been less impressive. But the skill of
the luthier is more important.
Note also that there are different varieties of cedar, and that true Lebanon cedar likely has different qualities than the common varieties.
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Pegs-I want to install fine geared tuning pegs, I think there are 3 out their Wittner/pegheads/knilling. Are they any good?
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I haven't tried them but the consensus seems to be positive.
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- pick up with Jack- I'm told Schaller is good- anyone use different pickups?
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No opinion on pickups. I use a stick-on microphone usually, the AKG C411
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Nazih Ghadban - spoke to him sounds like a really lovely guy and his Ouds look amazing - I loved the sound of his Nahat model 1322 over other Nahats
he's done.
Fadi Matta- Charbels choice of luthier anyone have any experience of his Ouds that he sells to the general public or are they all similar in quality.
the Mrs doesn't like the look of the floating bridge Ouds she likes the classic fixed bridge with the decorate rosette.
Albert Mansour- I understand this is Marcel's preferred luthier but would be interested to hear any experience anyone has with his instruments.
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I'm not going to comment publicly on the work of any luthiers except to say this: I would not consider a custom-built instrument for the sole reason
that I will not buy an instrument I haven't played. Every oud is different, even from the same luthier. You have no real idea what you are getting
unless you play the instrument first (even then, you don't know how it will age unless it is already an old instrument).
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Habibi
Oud Lover
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Hi Brian,
Thanks for the kind reply.
Well I took the pegs off the Sukar Oud, used some violin peg composition which helped allow me to tune the Oud for her. It's not perfect but managed
to keep the Oud I tune for an acceptable length of time.
I like the idea of the stick on mic, never one tried before but it looks like a great option.
Regarding having one made without trying it is exactly what I was worried about, listening to some of Nazih Ghadban's Ouds on YouTube there is a
considerable difference between the various ouds he's made.
The Sukar Oud we have measures from the edge of the bridge to just before the nut approx 62cm is that the correct way to measure the scale length?
The bowls measurements from the face is 36cm high by 52cm from the end of the bowl to where the neck joins the bowl. Depth is 19.5cm compared to other
ouds is this a small one or a standard size?
Best wishes
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SamirCanada
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I think you would be more than pleased with ouds from any of these makers. They would all be an improvement over a sukar oud and they will all have
"personality" something sukar ouds lack in my opinion.
I would say since your preference is for the classical type of ouds, they are Nazih's speciality in my opinion. If you want to hear the oud before you
buy, just buy a ready made oud from these makers who's sound you like.
19.5cm height is actually quite deep but its in the range of standard Arabic ouds. I make mine at 18cm. I have played ouds with shallow bowls that
sounded Huge!
If you don't regularly need to play on stage, stick on mic is perfect. Better than a pick up given the sound is more natural.
mechanical pegs are a waste of money and time, once you use properly installed pegs there is no need for them. I think many people feel they are
necessary because the average oud has poorly fitted tuning pegs. I feel the standard is pretty low across the board for beginner and intermediate
level ouds.
By the way, I have noticed that Charbel has been using many different kinds of ouds lately. I saw a video of his recently where he was using a zyriab
oud from Syria.
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samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada | I think you would be more than pleased with ouds from any of these makers. They would all be an improvement over a sukar oud and they will all have
"personality" something sukar ouds lack in my opinion.
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I have to disagree, Samir. My main oud is a Sukar and it is far better than almost all of the ouds from Ghadban or Matta that I've played. The
workmanship is rough (for sure) and required a lot of extra work to bring it to a professional level, but the sound is far superior to the more
expensive luthiers. Surprisingly, the pegs are very well made and fitted! Of course, each oud is different—which is my point of only buying ouds
that one has played. The luthiers mentioned are certainly working to a higher standard as far as visuals and general woodworking quality. But none
of that matters in my opinion if the sound isn't there.
I didn't want to disparage any luthiers publicly but a friend of mine got a "woman's oud" from Ghadban, paid a lot of money for it, and it is
certainly not remotely a performance-grade instrument. I've played Ghadban ouds that were very good, of course, but they are unpredictable at
best.
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If you don't regularly need to play on stage, stick on mic is perfect. Better than a pick up given the sound is more natural.
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I don't understand this comment; the whole point is playing on stage . . . the mic I use is one of the ones used by Marcel Khalife, it is the best
thing for playing on stage with a louder group. If the group is relatively quiet and the room has good acoustics, a regular microphone can still
sound better—often I will use both. I don't see any reason to use a pickup, honestly. I perform all the time with the AKG and it works great,
sounds great, no feedback, super loud.
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mechanical pegs are a waste of money and time, once you use properly installed pegs there is no need for them. I think many people feel they are
necessary because the average oud has poorly fitted tuning pegs. I feel the standard is pretty low across the board for beginner and intermediate
level ouds.
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I agree with this—they really are not necessary. I wouldn't necessarily say a "waste", but tuning problems usually are because 1) the pegs are
poorly fitted 2) the player (student) never really learned how to manage friction pegs 3) the nut is cut improperly and causes the strings to "jump"
rather than tune smoothly.
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SamirCanada
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I wasn't clear, we are saying the same thing. The AKG stick on Mic is great! and when you aren't playing on stage, you can remove it which is more
convenient than a jacked pickup. The sound is better than a pickup for sure.
You have a good Sukar that's true, when was it made? There was a few years before the war in Syria that he was making really amazing instruments. Then
I noticed the tops getting progressively thicker, as if the demand was growing so they were making them faster and rougher. There is a guy in town who
sells oriental furniture and he regularly imported them from Syria. I would stop in a tune them up to see what kind of sound they had and mind you
they all sounded decent but all sounded the same.
Habibi, regarding the tuning problems of your Sukar. Brian mentioned that the nut is sometimes the issue... I think Sukars come with a soft wooden nut
which makes life difficult. Simply replacing it with a bone nut would make the oud much easier to tune.
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Habibi
Oud Lover
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The diameter of the largest hole in my sukar oud is 9.45mm. I was speaking to a Lute luthier today about the possibility of installing ebony pegs and
he said that they were rubish and too hard his recommendation was plumwood pegs which I found very interesting.
He also said that because the pegs are so wide in diameter compared to lute pegs that there was my issue. The gearing of the pegs was too high
therefore the slightest of movement no matter how smooth would result in too much of an up-tune or down tune. Out of interest what is the diameter of
high end pegs on top end Ouds are they much thinner?
Ive got the Sukar Oud sounding much better with the violin compound which helps keep the pegs running smooth and its stayed relatively in tune over
night so I think its about as good as its going to get. I'm going to order some pegs from Chuck Herrin at Pegheds, hes got some Oud ones they seem
very simple to install and the cost of them outweighs the cost of getting a luthier to change the pegs and ream out the holes only to find that I have
the same issue. I think for this instrument the way to go would be to get the geared pegs.
regarding a new Oud I may consider getting standard pegs but I'm intrigued now about the thickness and the plumwood option. Any thoughts?
Best regards
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SamirCanada
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Lute makers typically make their own pegs, also plumwood is a traditional wood for lutes as is other fruit woods like pearwood. Ebony isn't rubbish or
too hard, why do all high end violin makers only use ebony? As a rule, you want the peg to be harder than the wood it is hosted in so that over time
the pegbox wood fibres will compress and actually improve the fit. I have seen a oud with pegs that are softer than the pegbox wood and it had 2
groves dented into the peg which made the peg impossible to go in further and caused slippage.
Also, before you order any pegs, make sure they will fit in your current holes. sounds like your holes are quite large already. Also, there isn't
anything different about the installation of mechanical tuning pegs. In fact you still need a peg reamer to make sure the fit is tight and then they
are glued in with epoxy to make sure they don't move, instead its the internal mechanism that moves. I don't think they are "easier" to install than
regular pegs.
Regarding the thinner pegs, I think its a desirable feature that makes tuning a bit easier but really its not that noticeable. In fact I have also
used viola pegs which are fatter and worked quite well. Its all a mater of making sure there is good even contact in the hole and the pegs are a
proper hardwood.
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Habibi
Oud Lover
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This is the 18 year old Sukar Oud we have.
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hamed
Oud Junkie
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Location: Seattle, Washington
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Hi Habibi,
Where are you located? I have a nahat model Ghadban oud that I haven't been playing as much , it is a very nice instrument , you are more than
welcome to come try it if you are ever in Seattle , WA USA.
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Habibi
Oud Lover
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Hi Samir,
Yes the nut is wooden, It's got a few too many cuts in it where previous luthiers have strung the Oud and made additional grooves. I think I'll
definitely change that at some point. As I think when tuning the string does not run smooth on it's surface therefore causing it to jump. Can you
suggest the best way to remove the nut? Is it essentially prying it off carefully? Regarding s new bone nut do you have to glue it on using a special
type of glue? I've ordered the new pegs from Chuck Herin so really looking forward to trying them out.
Rgds
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Matthias
Oud Junkie
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If the nut is glued, a slight push with a hammer from the fingerboard towars the pegbox it should get loose.
I never glue my nuts, the strings hold them.
Concerning the pegs, most of the aoud pegs are thicker than european lute pegs.
On my european lutes I work with ~7mm diameter a the thickest point of the shaft.
About ebony for pegs: may be there exists a few lutes with ebony pegs, but in general european lutes have boxwood pegs, probably stained black.
Plumwood and olive wood is also good. Pear wood is too soft for me.
Yes violins have ebony pegs. But violin makers have many jobs to reinstall the pegs as they go into the pegbox. With 4 pegs this will be a manageble
job, but with 12 ( aoud ) or up to 24 pegs on a baroque lute, it may be less work to make a new pegbox.
But lutes with boxwood pegs do not have that problem.
Best regards
Matthias
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Habibi
Oud Lover
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Thanks for the advice Matthias.
I ordered some bone nut blanks. When shaping the nut what is the recommended height away from the fingerboard? The wooden one I have is almost flush
with the fingerboard at the nylon end and slightly raised at the base end.
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Matthias
Oud Junkie
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Hello Habibi,
you can do it the same, having in mind the strings go directly up from the fingerboard if you play in a higher position
Best regards
Matthias
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Habibi
Oud Lover
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Hey guys got the Geared pegs from Chuck Herin at pegheds and installed them on the Oud, have to say they are incredible it's very easy to tune now,
got some F to F la Bella strings on there and the old Sukar Oud is now back to life and the mrs is back on it playing her favorite songs. I've even
had a go my self and I think I'm getting addicted to it.
Also ordered the AKG mic as suggested by Brian and it sounds fantastic thanks for that.
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Habibi
Oud Lover
Posts: 14
Registered: 3-11-2017
Member Is Offline
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Hey guys got the Geared pegs from Chuck Herin at pegheds and installed them on the Oud, have to say they are incredible it's very easy to tune now,
got some F to F la Bella strings on there and the old Sukar Oud is now back to life and the mrs is back on it playing her favorite songs. I've even
had a go my self and I think I'm getting addicted to it.
Also ordered the AKG mic as suggested by Brian and it sounds fantastic thanks for that.
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