Johnnyboy
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Fingerboard containing grooves over time
Hello fellow oud players,
I have been struggling with a problem for a long time now and I don't know how to permanently solve this.
I have a Shehate oud with an ebony fingeboard. The problem is that after a few months of playing, the fingeboard would wear out and contain grooves
right beneath where I press the strings against the wood. This causes some nasty buzzing sounds when playing those particular notes.
This has happened several times by now and every time I'd have to go to Egypt to sandpaper the fingeboard to even out the grooves. This indeed fixes
the buzzing.
I was wondering if there is a permanent fix for this problem instead of sandpapering it every once in a while, since I'd have to go
every time to Egypt and I don't dare to try this out myself on my Shehate oud.
I am particularly surprised that even ebony wood can wear out over time. Is this normal for ebony wood?
Looking forward to hearing from you guys about this.
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majnuunNavid
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I understand this is a big pain. I've has similar frustrations..
Unfortunately, not all ebony is created equal. It can be ebony, but one ebony might be denser than another cut of ebony is my guess.
It may also depend on the way the ebony was cut and sanded. Two of my Ouds have ebony fingerboards but one is clearly superior to the other. I don't
know if it's the wood or the way it was cut and sanded or both. Indeed, some luthiers build faster and have shortcuts which cause subtle differences
in the wood.
The result is that one of my Ouds has been more prone to grooves or buzziness than the other. When I look at both fingerboards close up, one has more
natural imperfections than the other. One of them has thin, long natural dips or pores, not sure what to call them. But when a string is right above
one of these, the natural wear and tear is faster. Generally, it's not a problem.
I'm uneducated in these things, but I speculate it's something to do with that.
By the way, you shouldn't have to go to Egypt to get a simple sanding. Any decent violin repair shop should be able to do it with basic explanation of
what you need. I've done the same in Canada.
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Elbelga
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Quote: Originally posted by majnuunNavid  | I understand this is a big pain. I've has similar frustrations..
Unfortunately, not all ebony is created equal. It can be ebony, but one ebony might be denser than another cut of ebony is my guess.
It may also depend on the way the ebony was cut and sanded. Two of my Ouds have ebony fingerboards but one is clearly superior to the other. I don't
know if it's the wood or the way it was cut and sanded or both. Indeed, some luthiers build faster and have shortcuts which cause subtle differences
in the wood.
The result is that one of my Ouds has been more prone to grooves or buzziness than the other. When I look at both fingerboards close up, one has more
natural imperfections than the other. One of them has thin, long natural dips or pores, not sure what to call them. But when a string is right above
one of these, the natural wear and tear is faster. Generally, it's not a problem.
Sorry for my English.
I have two ouds with ebony fingerboard: one from Dimitris Rapakousios and another from Rabih Haddad. Every winter (more humidity) I need to sand
gently my Dimitris oud fingerboard because the oud buzz (specially Mi and Fa). However, I never sand the Haddad thin ebony fingerboard because he
don´t buzz. Maybe the quality of the wood is decisive? |
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Elbelga
Oud Lover
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Sorry for my English.
I have two ouds with ebony fingerboard: one from Dimitris Rapakousios and another from Rabih Haddad. Every winter (more humidity) I need to sand
gently my Dimitris oud fingerboard because the oud buzz (specially Mi and Fa). However, I never sand the Haddad thin ebony fingerboard because he
don´t buzz. Maybe the quality of the wood is decisive?
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Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
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| Quote: Originally posted by majnuunNavid | I understand this is a big pain. I've has similar frustrations..
Unfortunately, not all ebony is created equal. It can be ebony, but one ebony might be denser than another cut of ebony is my guess.
It may also depend on the way the ebony was cut and sanded. Two of my Ouds have ebony fingerboards but one is clearly superior to the other. I don't
know if it's the wood or the way it was cut and sanded or both. Indeed, some luthiers build faster and have shortcuts which cause subtle differences
in the wood.
The result is that one of my Ouds has been more prone to grooves or buzziness than the other. When I look at both fingerboards close up, one has more
natural imperfections than the other. One of them has thin, long natural dips or pores, not sure what to call them. But when a string is right above
one of these, the natural wear and tear is faster. Generally, it's not a problem.
I'm uneducated in these things, but I speculate it's something to do with that.
By the way, you shouldn't have to go to Egypt to get a simple sanding. Any decent violin repair shop should be able to do it with basic explanation of
what you need. I've done the same in Canada. |
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on this. My fingerboard was previously actually Palissandar wood and because of wearing, an ebony layer is placed on
top of it.
I guess that a thin layer of ebony wood would be more prone to wearing compared to a fingerboard that is completely made of ebony since there is a
"softer" wood beneath it, right?
Regarding going to a violin repair shop, I take it that violinists have the exact same problem with the ebony fingerboard on violins?
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bulerias1981
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Johnnyboy, you don't have to go to Egypt just to have this issue fixed!  )
To answer your question about violin needing a fingerboard dressing, the answer is absolutely yes... and violas, and cellos, and basses. This is
usually something I address during setups. I advise most professional musicians to have a good checkup and setup done on their instruments at least
every 6 months. Kind of like going to the dentist to catch a cavity before it turns into a root canal!
Ebony is ebony, and it should be very consistent piece to piece in terms of hardness. It's a very good material for the fingerboard for that reason.
Also, there are no shortcuts a luthier can take which would make an ebony fingerboard wear faster than another. If you want to reduce "grooves" then
know these few things about how they occur over time.
Playing style (intensity of downward pressure exerted)
Amount of playing
Oxidization on strings
Fingernails on the left hand
My strong advice is change the strings when they become very corroded and oxidized. Rapid etching occurs chemically with the corrosion on the string
when it comes into contact with the fingerboard. Just think about this: When you do a vibrato on lets say the 4th string, 3rd finger position (a place
that receives heavy wear due to frequent traffic). the motion of performing a vibrato pulls the string back and forth with your finger as you vibrate
the string. Oxidization (iron oxide) is like a metal that begins growing on the wound strings. This physical change to the string combined with
horizontal motion, plus the heavy downward pressure actually removes minute amounts of material. Of course its not a lot each time, but if you play a
lot, and there's a lot of corrosion on the string, over time etches the wood underneath where the string contacts the fingerboard. It should be noted,
you can get wear without any corrosion, even with newer strings. But from experience, most of the wear happens when strings are not new. If you look
carefully in the light into the depressions made from wear, you'll notice a filmy deposit in the depressions that is a very similar make up of the
corrosion from the string. It can be also soot, or a combination of the two.
Good idea to keep the strings clean, wipe fingertips before playing.. especially if they are sweaty and clammy. Keep a cloth with the instrument, and
wipe the strings down after playing.. they will last longer, and not corrode so fast. Everyone has different acidity, and some people just tend to
perspire more than others. This is something I see on a daily basis with their instruments. There can be a connection with excessive caffeine intake
and rapid string corrosion.. but so many other factors to mention here.
Dressing or "leveling" the fingerboard to correct wear is not so much of a simple thing. Be careful who you take your instrument to. This operation
has the ability to change the angle of the neck. They will need to uniformly remove material across the fingerboard until the low spots at gone. The
nut might have to be lowered as well. If material is sanded or planed only where the wear is, the fingerboard will go out of flat, and have hills
where you done want them causing buzzing in other areas.
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Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
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| Quote: Originally posted by bulerias1981 | Johnnyboy, you don't have to go to Egypt just to have this issue fixed! )
To answer your question about violin needing a fingerboard dressing, the answer is absolutely yes... and violas, and cellos, and basses. This is
usually something I address during setups. I advise most professional musicians to have a good checkup and setup done on their instruments at least
every 6 months. Kind of like going to the dentist to catch a cavity before it turns into a root canal!
Ebony is ebony, and it should be very consistent piece to piece in terms of hardness. It's a very good material for the fingerboard for that reason.
Also, there are no shortcuts a luthier can take which would make an ebony fingerboard wear faster than another. If you want to reduce "grooves" then
know these few things about how they occur over time.
Playing style (intensity of downward pressure exerted)
Amount of playing
Oxidization on strings
Fingernails on the left hand
My strong advice is change the strings when they become very corroded and oxidized. Rapid etching occurs chemically with the corrosion on the string
when it comes into contact with the fingerboard. Just think about this: When you do a vibrato on lets say the 4th string, 3rd finger position (a place
that receives heavy wear due to frequent traffic). the motion of performing a vibrato pulls the string back and forth with your finger as you vibrate
the string. Oxidization (iron oxide) is like a metal that begins growing on the wound strings. This physical change to the string combined with
horizontal motion, plus the heavy downward pressure actually removes minute amounts of material. Of course its not a lot each time, but if you play a
lot, and there's a lot of corrosion on the string, over time etches the wood underneath where the string contacts the fingerboard. It should be noted,
you can get wear without any corrosion, even with newer strings. But from experience, most of the wear happens when strings are not new. If you look
carefully in the light into the depressions made from wear, you'll notice a filmy deposit in the depressions that is a very similar make up of the
corrosion from the string. It can be also soot, or a combination of the two.
Good idea to keep the strings clean, wipe fingertips before playing.. especially if they are sweaty and clammy. Keep a cloth with the instrument, and
wipe the strings down after playing.. they will last longer, and not corrode so fast. Everyone has different acidity, and some people just tend to
perspire more than others. This is something I see on a daily basis with their instruments. There can be a connection with excessive caffeine intake
and rapid string corrosion.. but so many other factors to mention here.
Dressing or "leveling" the fingerboard to correct wear is not so much of a simple thing. Be careful who you take your instrument to. This operation
has the ability to change the angle of the neck. They will need to uniformly remove material across the fingerboard until the low spots at gone. The
nut might have to be lowered as well. If material is sanded or planed only where the wear is, the fingerboard will go out of flat, and have hills
where you done want them causing buzzing in other areas. |
Thank you so much for the advices bulerias! I indeed wash and dry my fingers before I play and wipe the strings with a cloth right after I play. I did
not know that oxidized strings wears the fingerboard faster and that could be a factor since I don't very often renew the strings.
I have two more questions if you don't mind:
1. Regarding the oxidization of the strings, does this mean that the oxidized parts of the string are actually harder/sharper than the non-oxides
parts and thus digs more easily into wood?
2. I have always wondered about the position of the finger-pressed notes after sandpapering the fingerboard. I understand that when making the
fingerboard thinner, the action of the strings would be higher (e.g. the distance between the strings and the fingerboard increases). This larger
distance leads to a higher tension of the string when pressed against the fingerboard, and thus the corresponding note would have a higher pitch when
pressed at the same spot as before sandpapering, correct? Which means that the pitches of the pressed notes before sandpapering are shifted more
towards the neck of the ud. Is this reasoning correct?
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Location: Brooklyn, NY
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I don't think it's possible for iron oxide to form on the strings, since they do not contain iron.
Most likely it is a form of copper oxide, or possibly silver oxide in the case of silver-plated strings, or a mixture of the two.
Interestingly, copper oxide seems to be used as a wood preservative, but I couldn't find any information about it causing damage or weakness to wood.
I don't think the corrosion is really a relevant factor, but definitely the hardness of the fingerboard matters and having short fingernails helps
slow down wear.
Many players press far too hard on the strings as well, if you train yourself to use only the force necessary, not only will you spare your
fingerboard, you will improve your facility on the instrument.
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bulerias1981
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Johnnyboy,
To answer your question, I do believe the oxidized area of the string has a slightly more abrasive surface than a new string.
Brian,
I spend many hours of my life dressing fingerboards with wear. The ouds with the worst wear have the most oxidized strings, always. You can't find any
information about oxidization causing damage to wood (I didn't say weakness) is because it doesn't exist in any other application. You're hearing it
from me now. I'm saying oxidization plus the contact, plus vibrato wears the wood more rapidly.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by bulerias1981 |
I spend many hours of my life dressing fingerboards with wear. The ouds with the worst wear have the most oxidized strings, always. You can't find any
information about oxidization causing damage to wood (I didn't say weakness) is because it doesn't exist in any other application. You're hearing it
from me now. I'm saying oxidization plus the contact, plus vibrato wears the wood more rapidly. |
Correlation ≠ causation. This is basic science.
There are many reasons for a fingerboard to have wear and there are many reasons for strings to be oxidized. Statistically, it is more likely that
both are caused independently or by a third cause than that oxidation causes wear.
Ask yourself why did you conclude that oxidation causes wear, rather than that wear causes oxidation? If your data is that the ouds with the most worn
fingerboards have the most oxidized strings, then it is an equally plausible conclusion that the wear is causing the string damage.
Of course, that seems unlikely because there's no reason to think it could work that way. But to use the absence of evidence that fingerboard wear
causes oxidation to conclude that the converse must be true (that oxidation causes wear) is simply a logical mistake.
This doesn't even get into the fact that you have an inadequate sample set, since the ouds that you see are brought in for reasons and by specific
people. We have no reason to think that your clients are a random sampling of all ouds, and plenty of reasons to suspect the contrary.
Here is a short list of some possibilities/facts that would need to be sorted out before you could plausibly come to this conclusion:
• people with oxidized strings with no fingerboard wear are simply not coming to see you for repairs, thereby biasing your sample data
• people don't come to see you every time they change their strings, so whether the strings are oxidized when the oud is brought in is not at all
indicative of the condition of the strings generally, or the condition of the strings at the time the fingerboard damage was caused
• both wear and oxidation are influence by how much someone actually plays the instrument, so more oxidation and more wear could simply be caused by
the external third factor of playing time
• oxidation is also impacted by the composition of someones sweat and oil composition, and how reactive it is. It's possible that the same
sweat/oil reactivity also damages or weakens the wood (making it more susceptible to damage). Again this would be a third factor causing both, not the
oxidization causing the wear
• wear on the strings speeds oxidization, and heavy finger pressure or long nails can accelerate the wear on the strings. Heavy finger pressure
obviously could also increase wear on the fingerboard
• you would need some kind of testable hypothesis regarding a physical or chemical process by which worn strings could be causing more damage
(microscopic abrasiveness? chemical reaction weakening the wood cell structure, reducing hardness? magic?)
etc.
I'll note here that I should embrace your theory, since it would help me sell more strings! I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "better
safe than sorry" if someone is concerned about wear, because your hypothesis is not impossible. It's just that you don't actually know and it needs
more exploration.
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paulO
Oud Junkie
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Hey Brian,
Thanks for the "Many players press far too hard on the strings as well, if you train yourself to use only the force necessary, not only will you spare
your fingerboard, you will improve your facility on the instrument." comment. I've been playing since 1972, and I've heard this sentiment expressed
many different ways, by many excellent players. Thanks for repeating it, because this time it stuck !! (Duh).
Regards - PaulO
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bulerias1981
Oud Junkie
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Brian, I'm not here to nerd out, I'm here to share what I learned. My theory is correct and I'm too busy to try to prove it scientifically to satisfy
this panel!
Leave on heavily corroded string and you'll be dressing your fingerboard more. That's a fact. I also benefit if my advice isn't taken.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Quote: Originally posted by bulerias1981 | Brian, I'm not here to nerd out, I'm here to share what I learned. My theory is correct and I'm too busy to try to prove it scientifically to satisfy
this panel!
Leave on heavily corroded string and you'll be dressing your fingerboard more. That's a fact. I also benefit if my advice isn't taken.
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I'm not suggestion people keep their oxidized strings on the oud, I'm just point out that your opinion is still an opinion—even if it's an expert
opinion.
Just tell people that it would be prudent to follow your advice since your idea may be correct, there is little downside to doing so, and a relatively
large potential benefit. This just the precautionary principle and makes perfect sense. No need to claim that it's proven when it isn't.
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aminateur
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All your points are well-taken Guys. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
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