Patrickksb
Oud Admirer
Posts: 1
Registered: 5-9-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
Ff tuning on electric Oud
Hello,
I have always played the oud on Ff tuning, aka iraqi tuning. Now I'm considering getting an electric oud, one from sala or from ethnical music... the
only two options I have are turkish (58,5) with turkish tuning and arabic (60 or 61,5) with CC tuning. So obviously I will be buying one of them and
replacing the strings with Ff ones.
Now my questin is which one would be better with the Ff? I don't want to ruin the oud neck, nor have my strings loose on the oud.
I sent emails to both websites, one of them recommended the turkish, the other recommended the arabic... so I am completly lost.
Any help is appreciated!
|
|
|
dusepo
Oud Junkie
Posts: 107
Registered: 2-6-2021
Location: London, Britain
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dastgah-e Chahargah ?????? ???????
|
|
The string tension will be less of an issue with an electric oud, but I would reccomend going for the 58.cm version, as that scale length is often
also used for Iraqi ouds.
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
I think Arabic electric oud is probably better for you. If your usual tuning is FADGCF you can use 5 of the courses from the CFADGC set already on
there. Both of these tunings contain FAdgc. Remove the low C. Buy two strings of the right gauge for high ff. Move the strings over. (Put cc where gg
was etc). The big question is whether there is a single or double slot on the nut for the bass course. But even if there is a single, a single F may
be ok on electric oud. Maybe yes, maybe no. There is no difference in the tension on the instrument from the 5 lowest tuned courses. The only
difference is between the high ff and the low C on the original set. I can't see any danger to the instrument from this difference.
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
Yes, dusepo makes a good point. What is the scale you are accustomed to?
|
|
|
sylvainbd
Oud Junkie
Posts: 404
Registered: 6-7-2005
Location: France - Nantes
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sylent
|
|
As an electric oud maker, I would recommend a short-pitched oud for this Ff tuning. As dusepo says, the Iraqi pitch is 58cm. Or even 57 cm ...
Tensioning strings made to vibrate correctly at 58cm or so and installing them on a 60cm instrument will put more strain on the neck for sure.
Depending on the wood of the neck and the design of the model, this can be just as sensitive as on an acoustic oud. In the long run there will be a
problem because these electric ouds do not have carbon reinforcements for example.
Another thing I disagree with Jody is that it is not enough to swap the string locations. First the tension in the neck will be higher than expected
because pitch is longer. Second point, inside the electric oud, there is a pickup piezo type under the saddle. It reacts to string tension or pressure
under the saddle. In fact not every string has the same tension. It is often detailed on the packages. Sometimes 2.8kg sometimes 4kg ... It varies ...
So by swapping the strings you risk to have strings that sound strong and others not enough when you plug it into an amp. Because to get a good
balanced sound, the bridge nut is set for a type of tension per strings. In a cheap electric oud, maker doesn't care about good balance. In a good
one, maker works the bridge nut to adjust it for one tuning especially. This problem is known by many luthier using piezo system. Personally that's
why I developed a special system on my electric ouds that compensates tension of the strings according to the tunings. The main problem (after the
solidity of the neck and the action) is the balance of the strings on the pickup. And believe me, it's not easy to solve by hand because it's a kind
of equation with 6 unknowns !
In short, vote for the short model but you really may be surprised when changing strings
|
|
|
norumba
Oud Junkie
Posts: 220
Registered: 12-15-2003
Location: Taos
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Timely discussion! as part of the oud strings.com relaunch, one of the things I will be offering is some custom sets designed for solid body or
chambered body ouds, such as Godin, the solid frame style ouds and what our good friend Sylvain is building ( bonjour, comment ca va?  )
Godin multiouds, by the way , are configured for a F-f tuning form the factory and are 585 mm scale length, so thats set up for how you use it
right away.
Sylvain makes a very important and often overlooked point, that the tension ideally needs to be as even as possible across the set to help drive the
piezo or transducer for an even sound. That will be part of the basis in devising the custom sets - they will be as balanced as possible.
also keep in mind something very very important: the solid body frame ouds, the Godins, and and Sylvain's designs are very different from ELECTRO
ACOUSTIC ouds, usually labeled as 'flat back' or 'half cut' on Sala, etc. ..like these:
These are more of acoustic build and while they need an even tension set for the piezo, that tension needs to be less than what a solid or chambered
electric oud can take.
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by sylvainbd  | As an electric oud maker, I would recommend a short-pitched oud for this Ff tuning. As dusepo says, the Iraqi pitch is 58cm. Or even 57 cm ...
Tensioning strings made to vibrate correctly at 58cm or so and installing them on a 60cm instrument will put more strain on the neck for sure.
Depending on the wood of the neck and the design of the model, this can be just as sensitive as on an acoustic oud. In the long run there will be a
problem because these electric ouds do not have carbon reinforcements for example.
Another thing I disagree with Jody is that it is not enough to swap the string locations. First the tension in the neck will be higher than expected
because pitch is longer. Second point, inside the electric oud, there is a pickup piezo type under the saddle. It reacts to string tension or pressure
under the saddle. In fact not every string has the same tension. It is often detailed on the packages. Sometimes 2.8kg sometimes 4kg ... It varies ...
So by swapping the strings you risk to have strings that sound strong and others not enough when you plug it into an amp. Because to get a good
balanced sound, the bridge nut is set for a type of tension per strings. In a cheap electric oud, maker doesn't care about good balance. In a good
one, maker works the bridge nut to adjust it for one tuning especially. This problem is known by many luthier using piezo system. Personally that's
why I developed a special system on my electric ouds that compensates tension of the strings according to the tunings. The main problem (after the
solidity of the neck and the action) is the balance of the strings on the pickup. And believe me, it's not easy to solve by hand because it's a kind
of equation with 6 unknowns !
In short, vote for the short model but you really may be surprised when changing strings |
Well, that shows what I know about electric ouds: next to nothing. I was unaware of the intricacies of the pickup(s) responding to pressure at
certain positions. That said (and it's true) I still don't see how a given string in one position on any instrument can, at the same scale length,
exert a different amount of pressure in a different position on the bridge and nut. I was responding to the question of danger to the instrument and
of feeling more floppy or tight. A pair of gg strings (for instance) is going to exert the same amount of pressure as a third course as when it is a
second course, won't it?
|
|
|
sylvainbd
Oud Junkie
Posts: 404
Registered: 6-7-2005
Location: France - Nantes
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sylent
|
|
I may have misspoken. I hope I am not implying contempt! On the contrary.
Depending on the string manufacturer and the material, the tension can vary. Patrickksb wants to change strings because he can't find a factory
electric oud directly made with Ff tuning, so I invite him to be careful about the new string tension he will probably install differently from the
original one.
Secondly, you are right Jody a string keeps its tension in theory no matter where it is installed .... But! The piezo has its own composition. It is
not constant and needs to be adjusted for each string. In other words, the saddle is adjusted in relation to the piezo to balance the volume of each
string (or pair of strings for the oud). So the problem is not only the strings' particularities but the whole string+piezo+saddle
Example: If you install a nylon G string always tuned in G instead of a nylon C string, you will have the tension of the original G string but under
this string, you will have the saddle + piezo settings of the C string! So the output volume of the amp will be different because it is not designed
for "G" .... All this is not easy to adjust for sure.
No news from Patrickksb ? I may have been too technical ... that's the risk of the job 
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
No contempt was felt. :-) I joined this forum to learn and I welcome posts such as yours. The meaning of your first post was as clear as the second
and I was happy to have this new information.
| Quote: Originally posted by sylvainbd | I may have misspoken. I hope I am not implying contempt! On the contrary.
Depending on the string manufacturer and the material, the tension can vary. Patrickksb wants to change strings because he can't find a factory
electric oud directly made with Ff tuning, so I invite him to be careful about the new string tension he will probably install differently from the
original one.
Secondly, you are right Jody a string keeps its tension in theory no matter where it is installed .... But! The piezo has its own composition. It is
not constant and needs to be adjusted for each string. In other words, the saddle is adjusted in relation to the piezo to balance the volume of each
string (or pair of strings for the oud). So the problem is not only the strings' particularities but the whole string+piezo+saddle
Example: If you install a nylon G string always tuned in G instead of a nylon C string, you will have the tension of the original G string but under
this string, you will have the saddle + piezo settings of the C string! So the output volume of the amp will be different because it is not designed
for "G" .... All this is not easy to adjust for sure.
No news from Patrickksb ? I may have been too technical ... that's the risk of the job |
|
|
|
norumba
Oud Junkie
Posts: 220
Registered: 12-15-2003
Location: Taos
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by sylvainbd | In other words, the saddle is adjusted in relation to the piezo to balance the volume of each string (or pair of strings for the oud). So the problem
is not only the strings' particularities but the whole string+piezo+saddle
Example: If you install a nylon G string always tuned in G instead of a nylon C string, you will have the tension of the original G string but under
this string, you will have the saddle + piezo settings of the C string! So the output volume of the amp will be different because it is not designed
for "G" .... All this is not easy to adjust for sure.
|
so , Sylvain, in general are you recommending balanced tension sets to help with this problem? i am devising custom sets for these kinds of
instruments, and it would be interesting to know you thoughts -- you can DM or email me...
|
|
|
sylvainbd
Oud Junkie
Posts: 404
Registered: 6-7-2005
Location: France - Nantes
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sylent
|
|
Hello Norumba
yes get a set of strings very balanced could resolve the "switching strings problem".
In Patrick's case, we can't guess which brand of strings the manufacturer has adjusted. So Patrick will have to try a Turkish oud with another Ff
strings set and probably have it tuned by an oud or guitar maker knowing piezo undersaddle system.
|
|
|
norumba
Oud Junkie
Posts: 220
Registered: 12-15-2003
Location: Taos
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by sylvainbd | Hello Norumba
yes get a set of strings very balanced could resolve the "switching strings problem".
In Patrick's case, we can't guess which brand of strings the manufacturer has adjusted. So Patrick will have to try a Turkish oud with another Ff
strings set and probably have it tuned by an oud or guitar maker knowing piezo undersaddle system. |
yes, the sets im having made will be very balanced, and in general not quite high tension as floating bridge but a good tension for fixed bridge.
ill let you know!
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
