Victoria
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Identifying source of string buzzing
Hi!
Well, I am now weeks into my oud training and I gotta admit. It is a steep lerning curve. But I expected no less and I chose this instrument because
of the challenge. But that doesn't mean that it's not a total source of frustration as well 
One thing which has become an issue for me is a pronounced buzzing coming from the higher end of the wound courses. More specifically it is mainly A
and D. I have been reading a lot about the potential causes and watching videos about it on the internet but so far I have been unable to resolve it.
My action is a bit high at the moment because that is what I like the most but the action does not seem to affect the buzzing at all (I already tried
low action). I have tried the following in order to solve the issue:
1. Changing between different actions.
2. Changing the strings and the way they are situated in relation to each other in the pegbox.
3. Holding my fingers firmly on the nut to test if the problem is caused by the aforementioned.
4. Examining the rosettes to check for any dents or loosening of the rosettes.
In addition, it sounds like the buzzing is caused by the wounded strings hitting and vibrating against each other between the bridge and main
soundhole and not something with the hull of the oud (bracing etc.)
There doesn't seem to be anything wrong physically with the oud or strings. So I am starting to believe that maybe I am the one with the fault and
that there is something wrong with my playing style. I do follow the instructions closely from the video lecture but can it be that my oud is less
tolerant to hitting the strings a bit too hard perhaps? I try to hold back with it but it doesn't have to be that hard before the buzzing starts to
appear. I have to be really carefull not to pass the treshold and it is taking some of my focus in my learning.
By the way, the risha I use is a soft Pyramid P655 Profi Plektrum and the strings are Pyramid Super Aoud.
Thanks for reading and in advance for any help on this 
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Jody Stecher
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Check the 12th peg, the one with no string attached. Does it vibrate when the wound strings are played? Do you get the buzz when that peg is removed?
I once had unexplained buzzing. I traced it to some loose string ends banging on the pegs!
Whatever the cause, it can be found.
Does the buzz happen on the A and D strings when they are open? When they are fingered? Both?
The main tool in discovering the cause is to change only one variable at a time.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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There are so many possible causes of buzzing, it's very difficult to diagnose on a forum, and we'd need much more information than you have here.
In no particular order, the main culprits are:
• playing technique - either/both risha technique and fingering technique can be contributing to the problem
• uneven fingerboard - either wear from playing (you can inspect for grooves/wear) or an uneven spot somewhere on the fingerboard (sloppy
construction, shift in neck angle, or possibly humidity can all contribute)
• loose bits of string behind the bridge catching the vibration of the soundboard
• strings touching each other in the pegbox in ways that pick up vibrations
• loose rosette(s)
• loose brace(s)
• strings that are too light for the tuning/oud being used
• string pairs being slightly out of tune (won't usually create a buzz but can make a slight buzz more prominent).
• defective strings
It's nearly impossible to determine where the sound is coming from except by using something to dampen various vibrations.
If it's open strings buzzing, then it's not left-hand technique.
If only open strings buzz and not fingered notes, it's probably not risha technique either (risha-induced buzzing will mostly affect open and fingered
notes equally)
If open strings are okay, but lots of fingered notes buzz then it it may be left hand technique. If only one or two notes buzz then probably not.
If the fingerboard is uneven, then usually only very specific notes will buzz.
The most common points of wear are around the F/F# of the D string or the C/C# of the A string.
Unevenness due to warping etc. could cause issues anywhere but it's usually a range where either notes below a certain point buzz and higher notes are
fine, or vice versa - often not as specific as when it's caused by wear.
Loose bits of string - are any of the strings touching the oud face behind the bridge, even a little bit? Try muting those strings with the hand and
see if it stops buzzing. Solution is too cut the strings shorter and get them out of the way.
Pegbox strings crossing/touching: this is usually a very high-pitched buzz. Mute the strings in the pegbox while with the other hand and see if it
stops. Many solutions to this, best one I've seen is to wrap the ends of the strings with wire insulation when installing.
Loose rosettes: play and touch the rosette with the other hand to mute it - does the buzzing stop?
Loose brace: mute all the strings and tap the face in various spots. Do you hear any noises or rattling?
Strings that are too light: unusual problem unless someone uses the wrong strings (like High F tuned to low C tuning) or tunes a standard set down to
Bb, etc.
String pairs being out of tune: sometimes the extra 'wobble' of out of tune strings can exacerbate a buzz that is otherwise not really noticeable, and
out of tune strings will exaggerate any weaknesses in your risha and fingering technique as well. This might be the culprit if sometimes you have
buzzing and other days you don't, for no apparent reason.
Defectiive strings are really, really rare and are almost never the problem. But once in a while, there's a bad string.
There is also just the issue of the best tuning for a particular oud - sometimes an oud's resonant frequency just doesn't agree with a particular
tuning and this causes buzzing that goes away if you use a lower or higher tuning. There may be one of the other issues above contributing, but in the
end the oud just doesn't like a certain tuning.
As Jody suggested, test each possibility carefully, one at a time. If you go carefully through this list and make a note of everything you find,
we'll probably be able to make decent guess as to the problem.
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Victoria
Oud Addict
Posts: 48
Registered: 1-24-2023
Location: Odense, Denmark
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Hi Jody and Brian.
First of all, thanks for your useful advice regarding this issue. It is much appreciated as only online lessons are available to me to learn oud and
this is a case where you need some additional insight on the maintenance of the instrument. Today I went through your checklists and this sure seems
to be a little difficult it seems.
I also discovered that in fact all wound courses are affected by the problem. The only ones that aren't prone to buzzing are the highest two courses
and the low C.
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  | Check the 12th peg, the one with no string attached. Does it vibrate when the wound strings are played? Do you get the buzz when that peg is removed?
I once had unexplained buzzing. I traced it to some loose string ends banging on the pegs!
Whatever the cause, it can be found.
Does the buzz happen on the A and D strings when they are open? When they are fingered? Both?
The main tool in discovering the cause is to change only one variable at a time. |
First, I removed the 12th peg and unfortunately it did not change the buzzing. In addition, the loose ends are cut very short in the pegbox and it
does not not seem to be the cause as it does not help dampening the strings in the pegbox/nut while playing.
The buzzing happens mostly when the strings are open. Rarely, however, it even happens when fingered but that is not a problem in general. But it does
happen eventually.
| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | There are so many possible causes of buzzing, it's very difficult to diagnose on a forum, and we'd need much more information than you have here.
In no particular order, the main culprits are:
• playing technique - either/both risha technique and fingering technique can be contributing to the problem
• uneven fingerboard - either wear from playing (you can inspect for grooves/wear) or an uneven spot somewhere on the fingerboard (sloppy
construction, shift in neck angle, or possibly humidity can all contribute)
• loose bits of string behind the bridge catching the vibration of the soundboard
• strings touching each other in the pegbox in ways that pick up vibrations
• loose rosette(s)
• loose brace(s)
• strings that are too light for the tuning/oud being used
• string pairs being slightly out of tune (won't usually create a buzz but can make a slight buzz more prominent).
• defective strings
It's nearly impossible to determine where the sound is coming from except by using something to dampen various vibrations.
If it's open strings buzzing, then it's not left-hand technique.
If only open strings buzz and not fingered notes, it's probably not risha technique either (risha-induced buzzing will mostly affect open and fingered
notes equally)
If open strings are okay, but lots of fingered notes buzz then it it may be left hand technique. If only one or two notes buzz then probably not.
If the fingerboard is uneven, then usually only very specific notes will buzz.
The most common points of wear are around the F/F# of the D string or the C/C# of the A string.
Unevenness due to warping etc. could cause issues anywhere but it's usually a range where either notes below a certain point buzz and higher notes are
fine, or vice versa - often not as specific as when it's caused by wear.
Loose bits of string - are any of the strings touching the oud face behind the bridge, even a little bit? Try muting those strings with the hand and
see if it stops buzzing. Solution is too cut the strings shorter and get them out of the way.
Pegbox strings crossing/touching: this is usually a very high-pitched buzz. Mute the strings in the pegbox while with the other hand and see if it
stops. Many solutions to this, best one I've seen is to wrap the ends of the strings with wire insulation when installing.
Loose rosettes: play and touch the rosette with the other hand to mute it - does the buzzing stop?
Loose brace: mute all the strings and tap the face in various spots. Do you hear any noises or rattling?
Strings that are too light: unusual problem unless someone uses the wrong strings (like High F tuned to low C tuning) or tunes a standard set down to
Bb, etc.
String pairs being out of tune: sometimes the extra 'wobble' of out of tune strings can exacerbate a buzz that is otherwise not really noticeable, and
out of tune strings will exaggerate any weaknesses in your risha and fingering technique as well. This might be the culprit if sometimes you have
buzzing and other days you don't, for no apparent reason.
Defectiive strings are really, really rare and are almost never the problem. But once in a while, there's a bad string.
There is also just the issue of the best tuning for a particular oud - sometimes an oud's resonant frequency just doesn't agree with a particular
tuning and this causes buzzing that goes away if you use a lower or higher tuning. There may be one of the other issues above contributing, but in the
end the oud just doesn't like a certain tuning.
As Jody suggested, test each possibility carefully, one at a time. If you go carefully through this list and make a note of everything you find,
we'll probably be able to make decent guess as to the problem. |
It is by far mostly the open strings buzzing but it does occasionally happen that fingered ones are buzzing a bit. It is a "harsh" buzzing sound and
not the one which can be heard from the pegbox when they are crossing etc. (I tried that once before I corrected it).
Since it by far happens mostly on open strings, I think it is not caused by left hand technique. However, it is still possible that my risha technique
is a bit messed up.
I have examined the fingerboard closely as well as the neck. The fingerboard is totally even and I also know that this oud has never been used despite
that it was bought 35 years ago. Also, I don't see any twisting of the neck. I have attached a photo so you can see it along with the bridge area.
There are no loose bits of strings by the bridge toughing the face of the oud as I cut them short when I mounted the strings.
Regarding the pegbox. I tried muting the strings and playing the wound courses and it does not change anything, unfortunately. I tried holding the
strings firmly inside the pegbox and afterwards I pressed down on the nut. It did not change the buzzing either.
Next up was the rosettes. One by one, I touched the rosettes while playing and it did not change anything. They seem to be totally OK.
Then, something which could be a bit interesting but I am not sure. When I tapped the face of the oud in all sorts of places while muting the strings,
I did hear some dissonance. But I am not sure if it is supposed to sound like that. Therefore, I recorded it so you can hear it. Please not that this
may sound rough but it is in fact only light taps on the soundboard in different places:
Soundboard tapping
The strings I am using are CGADgc and that is the way it is tuned. I use a clip-on chromatic tuner and I always try to get it as precise as possible.
Also, the buzzing is present in the same amount every time I play even on different days. And the buzzing was there with my other set of strings of
the same type (I changed them at one point after my first mounting).
So can it be that my oud doesn't like CGADgc tuning? I really hope it does because the online lessons I am taking are using that tuning. But it
certainly is a possibility now that everything else seems to be in order.
Another possible reason could be my risha technique because I do believe I have a tendency to hit the courses too hard. Maybe I am underestimating the
practise it takes to get the amount of force right. it is possible to avoid buzzing if I get it right and play more softly but I don't have to play
very hard for the buzzing to appear.
After running all the tests I am still a bit puzzled to say the least. What do you guys think now that I have performed the experiments?
Thanks again!
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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My best guess, and it is only a guess, is that the action might be very low at the nut end of the fingerboard. The open strings may be slapping
against the fingerboard. Do you get any buzz on the wound strings when you finger them further up the neck? For instance what about where the neck
meets the body?
Can you post a (private) Youtube video that shows both your hands playing the oud when the buzzing occurs? That might help solve the mystery.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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A quick way to discover if your technique is causing the noise:
Play another oud. If the same noises occur, you are probably the source of the noise.
Another way: ask a competent oud player to play your oud. If there are no noises, then you know you are causing the noises. If the oud when played by
this other person produces the same noises as when you play it then you know you are not the cause.
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Victoria
Oud Addict
Posts: 48
Registered: 1-24-2023
Location: Odense, Denmark
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher | My best guess, and it is only a guess, is that the action might be very low at the nut end of the fingerboard. The open strings may be slapping
against the fingerboard. Do you get any buzz on the wound strings when you finger them further up the neck? For instance what about where the neck
meets the body?
Can you post a (private) Youtube video that shows both your hands playing the oud when the buzzing occurs? That might help solve the mystery.
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I have investigated the action near the nut and it does not seem like the strings are touching the neck when I play the strings. When I finger the
strings near where the neck meets the body, heavy buzzing occur but this is another type of buzzing which sounds like metal against wood (because the
strings now are near the soundboard). The buzzing I normally have issues with sounds like it is coming from the area where the risha hits the courses
and it sounds like metal strings vibrating against each other (like the pairs vibrate against each other independently on each wound course).
I have uploaded a video of me playing a simple exercise which includes both a wound course affected by buzzing and also "nylon only" courses. But
please bear with me as I am a complete beginner  :
Me playing exercise 3
Unfortunately, I don't know anyone who has an oud besides me and I don't know anyone who knows how to play it  I am totally on my own here with my oud 
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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This buzzing doesn't sound too bad in the video. From what I can tell, it sounds well within the normal range of buzziness for an oud, especially for
a beginner. I suspect the main issue is just with regard to your technical development. It's common for beginners to experience some buzzing or less
than ideal tonal qualities as the technique of the right hand needs to develop to produce a good sound, and the callouses on the left hand need to
develop as well as fine motor control over the modulation of finger pressure.
Given what you've told us, you seem to be doing fine. At some point if you can try different ouds as Jody suggests, you will gain more perspective on
what is cause by you vs. the oud.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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The video was helpful. The two strings of the D course can be seen to remain apart over the face (soundboard) of the oud. Around where you are
fingering the strings they are very close together and maybe are touching, even when you are sounding the pair open. But it doesn't sound terribly bad
to me. I would suggest you accept the noise as an "artifact" and keep learning. I think you are doing well. You are making no unnecessary movements
with the left hand. Your right hand is not too heavy. It's forceful and adamant. That is a good thing.You are not being over-careful or
over-forceful. No problem.
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Victoria
Oud Addict
Posts: 48
Registered: 1-24-2023
Location: Odense, Denmark
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Thanks a lot for your valued opinions on my performance so far!! It is much appreciated as I have no way of getting such feedback normally. And
getting it from such experienced players like you guys.. Wow!  it sure is
a privilege.
| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | This buzzing doesn't sound too bad in the video. From what I can tell, it sounds well within the normal range of buzziness for an oud, especially for
a beginner. I suspect the main issue is just with regard to your technical development. It's common for beginners to experience some buzzing or less
than ideal tonal qualities as the technique of the right hand needs to develop to produce a good sound, and the callouses on the left hand need to
develop as well as fine motor control over the modulation of finger pressure.
Given what you've told us, you seem to be doing fine. At some point if you can try different ouds as Jody suggests, you will gain more perspective on
what is cause by you vs. the oud. |
I guess I was just overthinking it a bit regarding the buzzing. And needing to get everything right from the beginning I am sure I will develop my skills in regard to getting the technique just right and
buzzing will become even less of a problem. I am also happy to know that you find me to be on the right track 
| Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher | | The video was helpful. The two strings of the D course can be seen to remain apart over the face (soundboard) of the oud. Around where you are
fingering the strings they are very close together and maybe are touching, even when you are sounding the pair open. But it doesn't sound terribly bad
to me. I would suggest you accept the noise as an "artifact" and keep learning. I think you are doing well. You are making no unnecessary movements
with the left hand. Your right hand is not too heavy. It's forceful and adamant. That is a good thing.You are not being over-careful or
over-forceful. No problem. |
I guess you are right with the D course, I see it now. They seem to be really close. Maybe because of the nut grooves. That surely will contribute to
the type of buzzing I am hearing. But I guess it's fine by now and I will probably get more used to the oud as I advance.
And I am happy to hear that I am doing well as I am totally alone with my learning except for my online recorded lessons. I make sure not to rush
anything and before I move to the next exercise I spend a lot of time practicing (several days/weeks for each exercise depending on the difficulty). I
have been practicing getting used to the "percussive" way of hitting the strings with the risha (as opposed to the guitar etc.)
As for now, I will just move on 
Thanks again 
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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As Jody implies, beginners risha strokes are often way too much on one side or the other, either way too timid or way too forceful. You are doing
well here, but I will mention that the right hand is probably a bit too forceful for a "default" stroke - the way you are playing is as if there is an
accent on every note. Other than being a little bit over the line into too forceful, the stroke looks pretty good. The general feeling of an oud
stroke shouldn't feel as percussive as this, it is somewhat more percussive than guitar (well, arguably — there are a lot of different styles of
guitar and bluegrass and gypsy jazz are pretty percussive as well), but we should be aiming for a bit smoother flow and not constant beating - the
repetitive accenting gets tiresome to listen to.
You might try to relax a bit more, and see if you can come to a rest in between strokes instead of 'bouncing' off the adjacent string. The 'bounce'
is fine or even desirable under some circumstances but at this point for you it is a wasted motion and an indication of the excess of force. But
this is more a refinement of what you are already doing, not a change in direction.
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MattOud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 298
Registered: 1-18-2017
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Mood: Feeling Pretty G'Oud
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Great advice here as always. As for buzzing in general, One of our own great forum luthiers John V posted this video on buzzing awhile back and I
always use it for reference and reminders:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPRvng77Hjk
Here is a nice song to work up to practice a nice spaced oud stroke(right from the beginning you can hear).
Beautiful, soothing tune by Callen Clarke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfWun-41iqw&ab_channel=CallenCla...
Cheers,
Matt
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Victoria
Oud Addict
Posts: 48
Registered: 1-24-2023
Location: Odense, Denmark
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | As Jody implies, beginners risha strokes are often way too much on one side or the other, either way too timid or way too forceful. You are doing
well here, but I will mention that the right hand is probably a bit too forceful for a "default" stroke - the way you are playing is as if there is an
accent on every note. Other than being a little bit over the line into too forceful, the stroke looks pretty good. The general feeling of an oud
stroke shouldn't feel as percussive as this, it is somewhat more percussive than guitar (well, arguably — there are a lot of different styles of
guitar and bluegrass and gypsy jazz are pretty percussive as well), but we should be aiming for a bit smoother flow and not constant beating - the
repetitive accenting gets tiresome to listen to.
You might try to relax a bit more, and see if you can come to a rest in between strokes instead of 'bouncing' off the adjacent string. The 'bounce'
is fine or even desirable under some circumstances but at this point for you it is a wasted motion and an indication of the excess of force. But
this is more a refinement of what you are already doing, not a change in direction. |
Nice advice once again. I will work on keeping my performance a bit more dynamic and less tensioned and not all accented strokes I had a slight feeling that my strokes were a bit too over the top for default
strokes. This is something that my lesson did not mention as it was simply stated that one should hit the adjacent string in this lesson. But I will
try a more dynamic version of it and work on refining my technique including strokes that end in between the courses instead of at the adjacent
course.
Thanks for your advice. In fact I already watched Johns video in an attempt to find the source of the buzzing before making this post But it surely is a great video in general regarding buzzing and for future
reference.
And that is a beautiful and interesting tune to use in my learning. I will use it as a future exercise! 
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