egypt omar
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can someone explain
I still dont understand the long pick that a person uses when playing oud. Why not use a thin guitar pick for example. Why must it be so long. Are
both tips of it used to hit different strings?
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eliot
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| Quote: | Originally posted by egypt omar
I still dont understand the long pick that a person uses when playing oud. Why not use a thin guitar pick for example. Why must it be so long. Are
both tips of it used to hit different strings? |
In using a guitar pick, the primary motion comes from the thumb. However, on the oud, the entire wrist and hand is involved. It produces a very
different attack quality than the guitar/thumb technique.
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John Erlich
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Well said, Eliot. I would also add, as a former jazz guitarist, that a guitar pick is squeezed tightly between the thumb and index finger, while an
oud mizrap/risha is held in a much looser, more relaxed grip, by the whole hand. I think this loose grip, based on my own hard experience, is
necessary to avoid repetitive stress injuries while playing the oud.
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habeebkum
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hi john, regarding the repetitive strain injury.....my wrist is causing me a bit of trouble. i suspect its from trying too hard with the oud, although
i try hard to relax. do you think this injury is due to being too tense or can it be technique?
habeebkum
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Brian Prunka
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i don't think that a guitar pick is more likely to cause any kind of injury. I'm also a jazz guitarist, and I wouldn't say that the pick is held
tightly. The pressure is about the same as with an oud pick. I've never known a guitar player with repetitive strain in the picking hand; it's
usually in the left hand, and caused by improper left hand technique. If noticed the tendency for repetitive strain using an oud pick if the angle of
the wrist is too extreme. That said, oud pick technique results in a much different sound and different articulations than what results from a guitar
plectrum technique.
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John Erlich
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I am not suggesting that one would get repetitive stress from playing an oud with a guitar pick. That issue was already tackled by Eliot (sound). I
am talking about problems that can result from holding the mizrap/risha (oud pick) too tightly.
My experience suggests that my problem was holding the mizrap/risha too tightly in my right hand, squeezing it between my thumb and forefinger, the
way I held a guitar pick--Brian may have held his guitar pick differently. This caused my wrist to be too tight. Generally, an oud pick is held VERY
loosely, much looser than I ever managed to hold my guitar pick. This helps you keep a relaxed wrist.
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zmazzola
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can some explain to me how to hold the risha, ive been told to hold my hand in a fist and have the risha bend against my palm and use my thumb to bend
the part that sticks out of my fist, and to angle my thumb off the pick toward the oud (it feels more natural to angle it away formt he oud), I have
found this to be extremely uncomfortable, does it just take getting used to or am i holding it wrong? thanks
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cshrem
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THis should help http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/plucking.html
Charlie S.
cshrem@gmail.com
NYC NY,USA
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zmazzola
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thanks
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JC1907
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When playing the oud, the action should come from the wrist instead of the arm. That's the basic rule. I was instructed not to bend risha at the edge
where it hits the string. The optimum angle where it touches the strings should be around 45 degrees. I hold the risha straight with the edge touching
the outer tip of my index finger (finger #1). However, I also hold it differently depending on how hard the risha is. Different oudists prefer
different firmness when they choose rishas. Harder rishas provide more volume while softer ones provide more flexibility during fast passages.
However, a good instrumentalist can balance it out. For instance, Yorgo Bacanos was known to use harder risha but we all know how agile it is. As long
as you hold right without putting pressure to your wrist, you may go ahead and modify it within limits for cleaner sounds.
Regards,
JC 1907
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Jonathan
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I think, too, that because the action with playing an oud comes primarily from the wrist, you need the length of the risha for stabilization. Try to
use a guitar pick and maintian the same picking/plucking attack on the oud. For me, it is impossible. I always end up using my fingers, rather than
the wrist. It is just not stable enough to have the action come from the wrist when you are using a small guitar pick. I actually like it when the
mizrap extends beyond my hand--it is super stable then. If you look at pictures of a lot of the older players, they tended to use really long
mizraps. Hrant, I know, used a really long mizrap. It could be just that my technique is not that hot, but it really helps my playing when the
mizrap is super long. It is just so stable, and I can control my playing much better.
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billkilpatrick
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you might find it interesting to know that i sometimes play charango and more recently, classical guitar with a risha. there is medieval iconography
(cantigas di santa maria) which shows the use of a risha like plectrum for a variety of stringed instruments. unlike the oud, however, i sometimes
play the charango with a stiff risha and hold it between the thumb and forefinger as if it were a pen. this can produce a rhythmic, plucked sound
that is called "las campanellas" or "the little bells." gaspar sans mentions it in one of his instructions for baroque guitar.
i also tried the risha on the mandolin. it worked fine - especially for tremolo - but was damaged easily by the steel strings.
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Jonathan
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It is amazing how much of a difference in sound you get with different mizraps. I use a lot of different ones. Jameel's, for example, give me a
really nice, warm sound. On the other end, I will sometimes use cable ties to give me a loud, brighter, more aggressive sound. I have others that
are in between. Different songs, different mizraps. And I know a lot of people look down on cable ties, but I think that they are great. A whole
bag for a few bucks. You can sand them down and thin them out just like you like them.
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oudplayer
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hey jon
what exacly are cable ties and where can i get them from
thx sammy
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Jonathan
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Cable ties are long pieces of plastic that are used to tie together cables, or wires. You can get them from most hardware stores. Try Home Depot.
They come in a lot of different sizes, and thicknesses. I will cut them down to the length I like (about 7 inches), and round off the edges, and
sand them down. One side will have ridges--I don't like that, because they grab onto the string. So, I sand it down. They are often fairly
narrow--I will try to post pics later. I like that. I think they are often almost the width of quills. And, they are so cheap that you can
experiment.
I have tried everything I can think of for mizrap material. Old credit cards, discarded plastic, whatever. It's just a matter of finding what works
for you. I keep a jar around with a bunch of different mizraps, and I keep alternating them.
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Jonathan
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Here's a picture of one cable tie. I put it on an oud so you can get an idea of its size. There is a "knob" on one end (here, the upper right).
Easy to cut. Just make it the size you want, and thin it out as you like it. I know some folks will frown on this, but it has some advantages.
Mostly, it is dirt cheap--you can experiment with different sizes and brands. It is also widely available (go to any hardware store, and ask for
cable ties). And, it can sound very good. I have seen a lot of professional musicians use these.
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palestine48
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I ordered a few regular rishas from viken najarian. they are 2 bucks a piece but they do the job very well. considering the fact that a good risha
makes a differnece in playing i think 2 dollars is well worth it.
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Jonathan
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I do, too. I like the rishas Viken sells. I use them, too. I am just saying that different rishas give really different tones. It doesn't hurt to
have a bunch of different ones available. And, just because something is super cheap doesn't make it bad.
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revaldo29
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Jonathan,
thats a pretty cool looking oud. Can you give us some info on it please?
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Jonathan
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Thanks, I like it too. I just got it a few weeks ago. It was built by my grandfather, Sam (Sarkis) Varjabedian in 1961. One of the things that I
think is pretty neat about it is that above the large rosette, there is a piece of darker would that has been set into the soundboard. So, it is not
really an extended fingerboard like you would usually think of one, because those rest on top of the soundboard. But, this is actually in the
soundboard itself. I think it is a great idea. I saw another one built by him in 1959 that was the same way. I haven't seen others like this, but I
am sure they exist. Still, I am guessing it was pretty unusual in 1961. I could be wrong.
He was just a part-time oud maker. He made maybe 4 a year or so. Making ouds in Detroit wasn't a job to raise a family on, but he loved the
instrument, and so built them as a side job. I think he did a nice job with them. And, it seems he was incorporating some good ideas that were not
quite so conventional. That inlaid wood in the soundboard, for example. He also made some ouds with extra courses, which also was pretty unusual for
the time.
I wish I knew more about how he learned his craft. He was born in central Turkey, but sold his ouds primarily to Arabs. So, the ouds are kind of a
blend between the two styles.
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revaldo29
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Jonathan,
I remember you were talking about getting a website up for ur grandfather. I would love to hear the oud if you wouldn't mind posting a recording.
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Jonathan
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Thanks, I will try. I did finally put up a website, but at this point it is pretty limited. Part of my goal with it was also to try to track down
more of his ouds, but I haven't been too successful with that. I will try to get something up this week. Thanks again.
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oudplayer
Oud Junkie
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hi jon
whast goin on
i haeva question what oud are u using now and i looks like like the sec strings are really close does that bother you
thx sammy
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