sydney
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Coptic Songs/Hymns
I just found this lovely link where lots of coptic hymns and songs can be downloaded for free. Good quality sound too.
All played by David Ensemble.
http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Songs/Coptic/David_Ensmble.html
Enjoy
Kind Regards,
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Emad
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mikokiko
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What I really like about that Ensemble is that they use the original proper tunings for the Hymns. For example in Amen Ton Thanaton Sou, based in the
Arabic equivalent of Maqam Huzam. So they do use tunings further than the three-quarter tone, to play the hymns precisely. If you try playing Amen Ton
Thanaton Sou with the quarter tone system it will not sound accurate with the sound intervals of 3/4 - 1 - 1/2 - 1 1/2 - 1 - 1 - 3/4.
The Turkish tuning is much more closer to the original, being:
5/9 - 1 - 5/9 - 1 4/9 - 5/9 - 1 - 8/9
There are many hymns that use maqam Huzam, such as Communion Psalm 150 (Yearly), Tai Shouri, Ifra7i Ya Mariam (Ounof Emmo Maria), Al-3oliqa, or Te-oi
En-hikanos from Tasbeha (beautiful hymn).
It is interesting to note, that the ancient Egyptians were known to have only used intervals of (8/9, 4/9, whole tone and 5/9), the same intervals
used by the Turks today. It seems that even traditional Arabic Egyptian Music only used these sound intervals. If you dig up an old Egyptian rendition
of Maqam Nahawand for example, you will notic that the third note is not 1/2 a step higher, rather it is 4/9 higher. It is probable that the quarter
tone phenomenon came from other Arab countries, or is only the result of the degration of the comma system. This comma system though was never used as
formally in the Arab world, as it has in the Turkish. Traditionally, Arabic musicians would have to listen to the microtonal adjustments, such as that
Maqam Rast would have its third note 8/9 higher than its previous, rather than a rigid 3/4 tone. This adds in giving more colour and sensation to the
melody. This musical phenomenon remained in practice until the 1950's and 60's, when many traditional instruments were replaced by Western instruments
which could only play the rigid quarter tone. But, if you listen to some of Um Kalthoum's old songs, like Ya Zalimni (Ya Salam!!), which is based in
maqam Kurd, you will find that playing it's second note with 1/2 is does not sound right, and even more, playing it with 3/4 tone does not sound
right. That is because the sound interval here was approximately 5/9 of a tone...
It is also worthy to note, that the Turkish whole tone, along with the traditional ancient Egyptian whole tone, is not 200 cents as it is in modern
western-influenced Middle Eastern Music. Rather it is approximately 203.77 cents, and this is why the comma is 22.6415 cents, and there are 53 NOT 54
commas in one complete octave. It is funny, how barely any musicians these days follow these traditional rules, while playing Arabic Music. All this
is due to adopting the Western Notation System to read Arabic songs. This is why it is much easier to learn Middle Eastern Music through the oral
tradition.
By the way, sydney, you play really beautifully on your Oud!! Please play more hymns and send them to me, or post them on this site!!
Alright, Peeeeeeeeeeeeeace...
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sydney
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Thanks for the valuable info.
| Quote: | Originally posted by mikokiko
By the way, sydney, you play really beautifully on your Oud!! Please play more hymns and send them to me, or post them on this site!!
Alright, Peeeeeeeeeeeeeace... |
Hi Miko
Thanks for the good info you posted here.
I'd like to hear from you on emad_philip@hotmail.com
Also please tell us about your self - your e-mail address, where about are you and what do you do etc..
Cheers,
Kind Regards,
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Emad
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Elie Riachi
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I Love it man , even though I do not speak Coptic. I should have walked across the street into the Coptic church on some of those Sundays during my
youth days in the M.E. A lot of similarities between these hymns and the traneem I grow up with in the Greek Catholic church or Catholic Orthodox
church (or just Catholic in Lebanon.) Good stuff.
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mikokiko
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Sorry to reply so late,
Glad you liked the info i talked about here sydney.
Well, I won't be giving out to much personal information here on the net, but basically my name is Peter...I am a Copt Orthodox Christian, born in
Egypt. I currently live in Vancouver, BC, Canada (soo much rain up here!). I have been researching about the similarities that Coptic Music has with
the fundamentals of Eastern Music (which I am still outlining) and I am trying to prove that the essence of Coptic Music is ultimately the same as it
was in ancient Egypt (a good book to read on ancient Egyptian music is, "Egyptian Rhythm" by Moustafa Gadalla), nearly 3000 years ago. I have just
started writing a book on this and hope to finish it near the end of this year, as it goes deep in comparing Coptic music with the other Middle
Eastern musical cultures.
If you guys have any questions on what I am researching or would like to support me with some information that you might know, that would be great.
Alright, peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeace...
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sydney
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mikokiko
Sorry to reply so late,
Glad you liked the info i talked about here sydney.
Well, I won't be giving out to much personal information here on the net, but basically my name is Peter... |
Hi Peter,
You sounded like I asked you about you credit card details man 
I noticed you never mentioned anything bout the oud !!!
Do you play oud? do you have anything to do with it?
Good luck with your book - if you have any question you can always ask and all members will try to help you find an answer.
Stay well
Kind Regards,
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Emad
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mikokiko
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Actually, I do have a oud I bought from Egypt, last time I visited, but I have no clue how to play it. All i have been able to manage is a segment
from Abdel -Halim song: "Ahwak", by ear. I need someone to teach me, to get me started. However I do play the Eastern Keyboard, but with limited
electronic tuning (only 1/2 (100 cents), 3/4 (150 cents), 1 (200 cents) step intervals).
Alright, peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeace
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al-Halabi
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Peter,
Your research project sounds very interesting. I have very limited knowledge of Coptic music, but from listening to a few recordings of the liturgy
and looking at Ragheb Moftah's notations of the liturgy of St. Basil it appeared to me that despite apparent similarities to Arab music (use of
microtones, melisma, ornamentation, stepwise melodic movement, etc.) there is something distinct about Coptic music that sets it apart. I was curious
if Coptic music used the Byzantine system of modes (the octo echos) at any time. I read somewhere that it did, but I wasn't sure if that was the case
and what influence it may have had on the music.
I came across a reference to a master's thesis done at Helwan University in 1976 that deals with your subject. You may have seen it, but just in case
the title is "al-musiqa al-qibtiyya fi Misr wa 'alaqatiha bi 'l-musiqa al-far'uniyya," by Nabil Kamal Boutros.
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sydney
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RE: Nabil Kamal
| Quote: | Originally posted by al-Halabi
I came across a reference to a master's thesis done at Helwan University in 1976 that deals with your subject. You may have seen it, but just in case
the title is "al-musiqa al-qibtiyya fi Misr wa 'alaqatiha bi 'l-musiqa al-far'uniyya," by Nabil Kamal Boutros. |
Nabil Kamal ... his name sounds known to me even that book you mentioned "coptic music in Egypt and it's relation to the pharounic music".
Al halabi where have you seen it last please?
Kind Regards,
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Emad
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mikokiko
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Nice to meet you Al-Halabi. Yes, I do agree, and many will, that Coptic Music has many apparent relations with Arabic Music. As it does with
Byzantine... The Oktoechos modal system of the Byzantine church is mentioned for the first time by Abu Al-Barakat in one of his books in description
of Coptic Hymnography, saying that the system of echoi was used for Coptic Music, although when describing it, he seemed to talked about the eight
echoi more from a psychological standpoint. This system of the Byzantine is often attributed to St. John of Damascus, although most scholars date it's
beginnings much before, to the time of Pythagoras.
If you read the book I spoke about before... "Egyptian Rhythm", Moustafa concludes from two manuscripts he found from Greece, that the musical system
of Byzantium (Oktoechos) in fact originated from the Pharaonic musical system, whom the Greek Philosophers saw as the PERFECT musical system. There is
much more to go into detail here, but i will not right now, I have very limited time, to write right now... (I will talk more about later). I also
have an online book about Byzantine music theory, and one of its chapters compares the music itsel with the Turkish makamlar. I have done this myself
by hearing the hymns played, and comparing them to the ancient Egyptian scales (finding that they are identical to the scales in both Coptic and some
in Turkish Music). It seems that since the Turks have such a well organized, and a much more efficient way of notating their music than the Arabs,
they have been able to preserve the old tunings of well known makams, known to the Arabs, Persians, ancient Egyptians, and even the Greeks. I remember
some where they said that one of the modes in the Echoi theory was identical to Makam Rast, and another identical to makam Segah, and another Makam
Cahargah...this could be due to influence of the Ottoman rule in Greece...
I also agree with you that many elements in Coptic Music that are only found in this native Egyptian music.
There are a lot of musical aspects that can only be found in Arabic Music, that have entered the hymns and changed the way they are chanted. Basic
examples of this are the difference of some hymns with old recordings and the present ones. It seems to me that some maqamat too, are changing for
example in a lot of places were Maqam Bayati is sung (especially in the liturgy), the fourth note is lowered like 4/9, to make it something very
similar to Maqam Saba. In fact, there are some people today who will sing the Festal Doxological tune in maqam Saba, and some who will sing it in
Maqam Bayati, and there are countless examples of this. Again, I do not want to get too detailed about this...
Concerning that paper you found about Nabil Kamal Boutros, I do not know where to get it at all. If you know somehow...please tell me.
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freya
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" ...I also have an online book about Byzantine music theory,"
Is this something that can be reached from a web site? I'd be interested in seeing it even if it's not in English.
Thanks,
Harry
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mikokiko
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Yes, actually here is the link:
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:4uQDklUG6EQJ:www.church-music.co.uk/Byz3c.pdf+Psalmodia+makam+rast&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=1
If this doesn't work then just search Psalmodia + Makam and this will show up as he first link on google.com...it doesn't work as a PDF file, so just
go "view HTML"
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Brian Prunka
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Hey Peter, a good friend of my has band in Vancouver you should check out sometime (if you haven't already).
His name is Gord Grdina and his band is called Sangha. Oud, Persian Tar, Tombak, and Tabla (Indian style).
They're really good.
http://www.sanghamusic.com/
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al-Halabi
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Peter, thanks for your interesting comments. One of the important points you touch on is the degree to which the musical system of a particular
community, especially a minority, is affected over time by the larger musical culture and adopts elements from it. In the Middle East that kind of
process occurred in various contexts. A field study of the Byzantine liturgy of the Palestinian Greek Orthodox community (by Dalia Cohen) found an
interesting situation in which the church claimed to follow the Byzantine ochto echos, but when sung the Byzantine modes turned out to be actually
modified by small adjustments of intervals that made them conform to Arab maqams (such as Rast and Segah). In a similar way the Byzantine liturgy of
the Greek Orthodox community in Istanbul was "ottomanized" by the 18th century, when the church modes came to sound like Ottoman makams. It is
difficult for communities with distinct musical systems such as the Byzantine and Coptic churches to remain completely sheltered from the influences
of the musical culture of the larger society of which they are part. They may officially claim that they are following their traditional ideal system,
but we need to be careful not to assume that theory and practice are always the same.
I agree that the Turkish system is more accurate in representing intervals than the Arab system. Arab notation, for example, does not distinguish
between the 4/9 interval (limma) and 5/9 interval (apotome), even though they are audibly different; Turkish notation has separate symbols to indicate
these intervals, with one being one comma larger than the other. But I think that both systems have a problem with representing accurately intervals
with what is often called the half-flat. The note segah in Arab music is defined as buselik flattened by a quarter tone, and the interval dugah-segah
is said to be 3/4 tone. In Turkish theory the note segah is defined as buselik flattened by one comma, or by 1/9 tone, and the interval dugah-segah is
considered to be 8/9 tone. Each theory recognizes one size for an interval that in practice we know is of varying sizes depending on the maqam, the
melodic progression, etc. It could be anywhere from around 3/4 tone to around 8/9 tone. Turkish classical tanburs actually have as many as three frets
for the "half-flat" note, giving intervals of roughly 6, 7, and 8 commas (a range of approximately 150-180 cents), even though Turkish theory
recognizes only the 8-comma interval. The higher pitch of segah would be used in Rast and Huzam, the lower ones in Saba or Huseyni. One wonders to
what extent the various theoretical systems in the region's past (Pharaonic, ancient Greek, Byzantine, Coptic, Arab-Persian as systematized by Safi
al-Din al-Urmawi, etc.) reflected actual practice at various times. I suppose that this is one of the vexing questions that you are confronting in
your research.
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Mike
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here's another excellent resource for Coptic hymns: www.coptichymns.net. there is an abundance of streaming, as well as downloadable files to listen to. you can find the original recordings that Dr.
Moftah and Dr. Newlandsmith recorded for Mu'allim Mikhail el-Batanouny, the great 20th century cantor. Dr. Moftah made these recordings available at
the Library of Congress. lots of good stuff at that site for sure.
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mikokiko
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I would recomend listening to HICS over that Cantor, even though he has what we now consider the most accurate way of saying hymns. Since they are the
oldest records we have for Coptic Hymnology. Though he was said to have a beautiful voice, it went hoarse near the time they recorded the hymns. So,
it is very hard to enjoy the hymns, for me personally, when listening to him. The HICS, did preserve most of how he said the hymns. They sound much
better, and present their hymns very well, keeping the Coptic musical spirit. They were also a very well directed choir (Their Director was Dr. Ragheb
Habashy Moftah).
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mikokiko
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Al-Halabi, you are very right, that it is one of the problems I have encountered when writing this book. To be able to clarify what is ancient
Egyptian, Arabic, Turkish, Byzantine and Coptic. But if we can look back to history and see what the accounts of different people say, we will be able
to get a better answer. For example many Greek Philosophers, Plato, Pythagoras, and Herotodus, all account that the Greeks borrowed the musical system
of the Egyptians, as they describe it to be "the ideal system." Many scholars today believe that the oktoechos of the byzantine church descended from
this system in Greece.
But how are we to know for sure that the ancient Egyptians used the comma system? How are we to know which scales they really used? The answer perhaps
lies in the discoveries of the ancient flutes found in Egyptian tombs, which many scientists have found and studied. A research group team of
Egyptians and Americans, "Egyptsound", used four flutes (Nays) from the cairo Museum. They made exact replicas with exact same tuning, fingering, and
structure as those flutes they found...The first flute they tested, dated back to the Middle Kingdom, and was tuned to an almost perfect pentatonic
scale, missing the seventh and third notes of the diatonic scale, and using F as its base note. This was found at Beni Hassan. Many ancient cultures
used the pentatonic scale.
The second flute they found, dated back to the 18th dynasty of the new kingdom, and was found at Deir Al-Medina. This flute gave a tuning of a
diatonic A Minor Melodic Scale, with the fourth note being flatter than usual.
Now, this is the interesting part...
The third flute they found, was found at Sakkara, but with unknown dating. It gave a diatonic scale based on F. They approximated the tones of this
scale to:
1 - 3/4 - 3/4 - 1 - 1 - 1/2 - 1
the fourth flute gave very similar tonal intervals as the third (found also at Sakkara with unknown dating), with the third, and seventh notes tuned
in between a quarter tone and flat. This is how the researchers described it. So if I were to make my own approximation of this, from how they
describe it, I would eighth intervals, it represents the note exactly halfway between the three-quarter tone and the half tone:
1 - 5/8 (it could be 5/9) - 7/8 (it could be 8/9) - 1 - 1 - 5/8 - 7/8
Do these tonal degrees sound familiar?
These are the same tonal intervals used in the Arabic Maqam Rast. Since this scale was found to be used with a pure ancient Egyptian flute, using nile
bamboo. Because of these evidences, it is concluded that this scale did not come from any other nation. Maqam Rast has always traditionally been
thought have to originated from Persia. But this has proven this to be wrong, as the researchers concluded, saying that it was the Persians who
borrowed the scale from the ancient Egyptians, while they dwelt in Egypt.
You see, in many accounts it is written, that the Egyptians were very conservative, in keeping their music away from external influences. They would
not allow the slightest change in any songs, and would preserve all their rules and melodic formulas. Rigorous discipline was the norm. PLato asserts
that, "They were forbidden to introduce any innovations to the music." They believed it was the ideal musical system, and was in part, the reason for
the balance in Egyptian society! Imagine what more we can find out if we were to try out the other 50 flutes in the different Museums!!
They were also known to preserve many of their songs, and pass them down from generation to generation. Just like what the Coptic church has done.
Herodotus, in his book, "Histories II" describes one of the Egyptian songs that the Egyptians say was preserved for many centuries,
"Besides other customary things among them which are worthy of mention, they have one song, that of Linos, the same who is sung of both in Phenicia
and in Cyprus and elsewhere, having however a name different according to the various nations. This song agrees exactly with that which the Hellenes
sing calling on the name of Linos, so that besides many other things about which I wonder among those matters which concern Egypt, I wonder especially
about this, namely whence they got the song of Linos. It is evident however that they have sung this song from immemorial time, and in the Egyptian
tongue Linos is called Maneros. The Egyptians told me that he was the only son of him who first became king of Egypt, and that he died before his time
and was honoured with these lamentations by the Egyptians, and that this was their first and only song."
So, as you can see, the Egyptians had a very formalized approach to music, having established a musical system, whom Plato described as the Ideal
system, and whom the Greeks adopted. Pythagoras actually borrowed a lot of his theory from the Egyptians. His theory was the basis for the Greek
Oktoechos.
So, what we can conclude from all this?
ancient Egyptian music seems to have through historical records, and musical research, have had a huge impact on the music of the Near East, there are
at least two nations who borrowed from their music, Greeks and Persians. The persians in turn, were known to have influenced the Arabs, who in turn
influenced the Turks in music. So there are a lot of connections here, and if the comma system as described by Moustafa Gadalla in his book, is and
was present in most Eastern musical cultures of the East (Some persians are known to use a 53 tone octave like the Turks and ancient Egyptians), then
a lot of my question has already been solved. It is just that the Arabs now have adopted a poor musical notation system, that lacks in representing
the true tonal intervals of the music, although Gadalla says that the baladi Egyptians, and Egypt a very long time ago, did use the comma system...
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Mike
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"that cantor" is basically responsible for the preservation of all the hymns of the church as we know them today. you're right, he doesn't have the
most angelic voice, but he is a huge historical figure. we are lucky Dr. Moftah chose him to record and preserve the hymns. the smartest decision he
probably ever made was to send a copy of those recordings to the Library of Congress. can you imagine what would have happened to them if they were
kept somewhere in Egypt?
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mikokiko
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I am not arguing that he didn't preserve the hymns, but for a starter in the hymnology, I would never recomend people to listen to him...I agree he
was an awesome guy, and if you want to say a hymn the most accuarate way, go back to one of his recordings. But most people here are starters, or
probably have never even heard Coptic Hymnology, so my recomendation would be like David Ensemble or HICS, just so they can take a feel for the
music...
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mikokiko
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Al-Halabi,
concerning what you talked about, if someone wanted to play an exact half flat in Turkish Music, or in Arabic Music, the comma equivalent would
be...7/9 (quarter of a comma higher, but that's okay, we will let it go this time)
But rarely is a quarter tone, even in traditional old Arabic Music, played as an exact three quarter tone, falling exactly halfway between a whole and
half tone... This is but a new phenomenon that came during the first half of this century, because of the even-tempered western ionstrumetns that were
altered to playe quarter tones. Arabic Music should be played in Natural instruments. Because Maqamat are not even-tempered scales, but Natural ones.
Maqam Rast, Maqam Sikah, Maqam Huzam, Maqam Iraq's third note is played higher than the second note in Maqam Bayati, even though they are all notated
as a quarter tone in Arabic Musical Notation. Why is it that the older uses these more precise tonalities? This gives the music a more different and
more expressive power. So a Maqam bayati, if lowered by a few commas can sound happier, than Maqam Rast, which can have the psycolgical effect of
sentimantality, glory, and vividness. While Maqam Bayati can give the effect of warmth, affection, tenderness, and hapiness for others.
We can see this cahnge in Um Kalthoum's music...
her old music uses these microtonalities, try playing Agharu min Nesmat Al-Ganouby in the maqam rast without any change in tones. The third tone
sounds a bit off. It really sounds better with the 8/9 interval.
Or try playing Al-Ahat with a modified Maqam Huzam, it doesn't sound that precise...
So 8/9 tone is much more precise than playing 7/9 (around the same as 3/4)...
Now with Ansak in 1961, the maqam Rast in this uses exactly 3/4 interval. This is when they introduced the Western instruments into her Ensemble.
Which in my opinion obliterated the beautiful traditions of the Middle Eastern Musical system. NOw do we barely find any one who plays Maqam Rast the
same way it was played...
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sydney
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Mu'allim Mikhail el-Batanouny.
The great 20th century cantor. I could not say it better than you Mike.
Can someone please explain what is wrong with his voice? and Why we would not recommend starters to listen to him?
If Mu'allim = "teacher" Mikhail el-Batanouny was the only solid reference for the coptic church to receive the coptic hymns from. And as been said "
he was an awesome guy, and if you want to say a hymn the most accuarate way, go back to one of his recordings." Then what would a starter can see
wrong in going back to the original?
I believe this is personal taste. some people can not accept but clean and clear digital modern recorded sound produced by for example David ensemble
and HICS whatever that stands for.
Caring for starters ... It was said "But most people here are starters, or probably have never even heard Coptic Hymnology, so my recomendation would
be like David Ensemble or HICS, just so they can take a feel for the music... "
Will starters understand the meaning of "Amen Ton Thanaton Sou" , "The Oktoechos modal system" or even "HICS"? If we are going to care for starters
then we better use simpler words or explain the meaning of the words we use. I have only picked three examples out of too many - As a starter I did
not understand many of them even though I come from a coptic back ground. So what about starter who had nothing to do with it and even new to the oud
all together.
I would like to enjoy this thread and I am sure many other members want to enjoy it too but I am sure there are lots of people now asking - What on
earth are these people talking about? We can not learn or benfit out of this.
If I am to teach a starter a piece of music, I'd play it slow and simple so it can be followed - Or I will gain nothing if I play it with "a fall off
your chair techinque" and end up with someone with a mouth wide open.
Kind Regards,
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Emad
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mikokiko
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Okay sounds good. Please do forgive me for sounding a little too complicated. Tell me what you would like me to clarify first, and I will simplify it
for you. I have already started a new forum though for those beginners to Coptic Music called, The Psychological Effect of Coptic music on the human.
In there you can feel free to ask as many questionsa as you would like.
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zalzal
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Master artist Maurice Rouman is a member of the M B Orchestra, known in Middle Eastern circles both here and abroad. His forte is the Egyptian 'oud,
an ancient and difficult 10-stringed instrument which is the forerunner of the modern lute. He began playing at age 6 in Alexandria, learning from
relatives and neighbors. By the time he was 12 he was performing publicly. His musical studies took him from the University of Egypt to Milan,
Italy.
Since coming to Seattle in 1983, Rouman has continued his music, both playing and teaching classical Egyptian songs, and composing. He teaches the
'oud "from his heart," or by close observation, as he never uses sheet music for it. He is concerned that the ancient Egyptian music, and especially
his favorite Coptic repertoire, will disappear some day, just as some traditions have disappeared in Egypt already. A second-time recipient of the
Apprenticeship Program Award, Rouman has appeared at the NW Folklife Festival and has many recordings to his name. His award will be used to teach his
beloved 'oud, again, this time to his daughter, Magda Mattar. A performing musician in her own right, both in Egypt and the U.S., and a member of the
M B Orchestra, Mattar hopes to pass the tradition on to her children.
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sydney
Oud Junkie
Posts: 579
Registered: 12-9-2003
Location: Down Under
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bastanikar
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No worries brother
| Quote: | Originally posted by mikokiko
Okay sounds good. Please do forgive me for sounding a little too complicated. Tell me what you would like me to clarify first, and I will simplify it
for you. I have already started a new forum though for those beginners to Coptic Music called, The Psychological Effect of Coptic music on the human.
In there you can feel free to ask as many questionsa as you would like. |
Hey budd,
There is nothing to forgive you about. It's very hard for a lot of members to just spend half hour trying to understand or make sense of what you guys
trying to say. It is nice to have the knowledge but it would be nicer to share it. I hope other knowledgable members get my drift.
Thanks for your offer of answering my question in the future. I take that with a great respect Peter.
Stay well
Kind Regards,
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Emad
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