dana
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Some really basic quetions about ouds
Sorry if these are too lame for everyone but.........
I will be travelling to Turkey later this year and am thinking seriously about purchasing an oud. However, I am very puzzled about many things such
as:
There are appearently many different tunings, divided up into Arabic and Turkish, but it seems that every place that I read about the tunings, they
are different. For instance, I bought the John Bilezkjian book and the tunings he uses are different than what I have seen from crusing the internet.
Are there no real standards? If I purchase a Turkish oud, would I be able to tune it to an Arabic tuning and have it still sound good, if I would want
to do that?
I am also looking for other instruction books. Can anyone comment on this: http://www.kairarecords.com/oudpage/Oud.htm
or any other material in English that would help me out.
TIA
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billkilpatrick
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dana -
lucky you! strolling from music store to music store sampling ouds sounds like heaven.
the guitar has many more tunings than the oud but it's still a guitar - don't be put off with the notion of an "official" tuning. but from what i've
gleaned here on site, traditionally, turkish tuning goes as follows:
E-A-B-e-a-d
F#-E-B-e-a-d
F#-C#-B-e-a-d
... almost always B-e-a-d on the 1st four courses with variations on the remaining bass.
turkish ouds are smaller than arabic. an arabic tuning (lower than turkish) would work on a turkish oud but not vice versa.
re: instruction books: what you'll find here at mikes and the exercises generously posted by mav at:
http://www.oudcafe.com/
... should make you an expert in no time. saving your money to buy dr. oud's construction book:
http://www.droud.com/book.htm
... will only hasten this process.
good hunting (!) and please post photos when you return - bill
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dana
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| Quote: | Originally posted by billkilpatrick
dana -
lucky you! strolling from music store to music store sampling ouds sounds like heaven.
the guitar has many more tunings than the oud but it's still a guitar - don't be put off with the notion of an "official" tuning. but from what i've
gleaned here on site, traditionally, turkish tuning goes as follows:
E-A-B-e-a-d
F#-E-B-e-a-d
F#-C#-B-e-a-d
... almost always B-e-a-d on the 1st four courses with variations on the remaining bass.
turkish ouds are smaller than arabic. an arabic tuning (lower than turkish) would work on a turkish oud but not vice versa.
re: instruction books: what you'll find here at mikes and the exercises generously posted by mav at:
http://www.oudcafe.com/
... should make you an expert in no time. saving your money to buy dr. oud's construction book:
http://www.droud.com/book.htm
... will only hasten this process.
good hunting (!) and please post photos when you return - bill |
So do you have any sense if most players follow the Arab or the Turkish tuning? I would like to learn the most common tuning (if there is one!) and
not mess about trying to work with many tunings. It does make sense, I do play guitar, and have used some alternate tunings but not that much. For the
oud, I want to hopefully be able to play with other musicians, so I want to learn what would be most applicable in most situations. Also, that makes
sense about lowering the pitch working for the Turkish oud, thanks.
I will do some shopping certainly. I have been recommended to
Cankaya Music in Istanbul by Latif Bolat, a fine baglama player and the leader of the tour I am taking. He has had good luck over the past ten years with these makers, but
certainly if I can I will look at some other shops.
I have been given to understand that the Turkish ouds in general are better made than those from Egypt - do you have any idea if this is so? If they
were only guitars, I wouldn't have any trouble determining the quality of an instrument.....
Thanks much for your reply!
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billkilpatrick
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dear dana -
i'm far from expert about this and i spent - wasted - an awful lot of time worrying about tunings.
the standard turkish tuning is as i've described. the standard arab tuning goes like this:
C-F-A-d-g-c
D-G-A-d-g-c
generally, the schematic relationship between turkish and arabic tuning remains the same - arab is simply a step lower. it might help to think of -
but not to play - an oud with a capo. place the (imaginary) capo two (imaginary) frets up on arabic tuning and you've got turkish tuning.
if i was in your shoes, looking for an oud i'd start off by buying the best instrument i could afford. i'd also buy a hard case to keep it in - gig
bags are ok but you've got to get the instrument back home in one piece. arabic ouds are slightly larger than turkish but as to which is better ... i
ain't-a gonna-go there - the one you choose will be the best. it might help if you knew which style of play you were thinking of studying. i play
medieval european music on my oud in what i hope is an andalusian(ish) style and my 2 ouds (egyptian and syrian) are just perfect for that.
have you heard the sound samples on site? is there someone local to teach you or will you - like me - be relying on mike and mav and everyone else
out there in cyber-what'sit to teach you?
ciao - bill
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dana
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that makes a lot of sense with the imaginary capo -
yes, I am going to buy a professional grade instrument. Its my understanding that in Turkey that will set me back $700-$800, not including the case.
Oh yeah, hard shell case is mandatory for my long trip back home. Really thats not such a bad price, considering that I bought my wife a $2000 cello
this week. Almost seems cheap!
thats a very valid point on what style I am thinking of playing. knowing me, it will be all mixed up, since I tend to blend electronic sounds in most
everything I do....but I should think about it. and that was sorta a loaded question about Turkish vs Arabic quality....in any event I will be in
Turkey, not Egypt, so its a moot point really.
even though Dr.Oud in Vancouver, WA is just across the river from me, I don't think there are any teachers in this area, but I haven't really looked.
I have some close friends that play middle eastern music, so I will ask around. And no, I haven't checked out the music here, but I will, along with
the instruction, leaching as much as I can from the cyber world
cya!
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Microber
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I bought an oud from çankaya last year in july.
I paid it 650 € (about 800$) with hard case and spare string set.
I play arabic music. My teacher is Irakian.
My tuning is DABead. But I play as it was CGAdgc sine I play alone until now.
I have already tried to tune a step lower. But then the strings are too loose.
But apparently with others strings it must be possible.
There are a few others good luthiers in Istanbul.
You will find them in this forum.
Faruk Türünz seems to be the best.
http://www.oudmaster.com/php/
Good luck and have a nice trip.
Robert
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billkilpatrick
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| Quote: | Originally posted by dana
... Really thats not such a bad price, considering that I bought my wife a $2000 cello this week. |
what did you pay for the bow? i was staggered to read recently that people will pay 1/3 the price of a cello for a bow to play it with ...
don't know when you're off on your expedition but if you can get a copy of richard hankey's oud construction book before you fly you'll have a better
idea of what's on the inside of the beautiful oud that's sitting in a shop in istanbul right now! ... as we speak! ... with your name on it!
fullofeasternpromise - bill
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dana
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Two replies:
Microber: I take it you are happy with your oud? That is about the price range I was thinking of. I would have thought you could tune it lower no
problem...hmm............
and
Bill
We paid $180 for the bow - brazilwood with a horn (you know, where you grip it) made of buffalo horn. Nice! Yes, you can get new bows upwards of
$2500, and for old super quality bows, the sky is literally the limit. We heard a nice $40,000 cello at a show the other day, can you believe??????
I will check out the book if I have a chance, but the real things I am concerned with will be inside the oud, where I can't see them....unless I can
look in their workshop.
thx for the tip.
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billkilpatrick
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just to whet your appetite and give you an idea of what 's available here in europe, here's a beautiful looking professional quality oud up for
auction on ebay germany:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Black-High-Quality-Professional-Oud-UD-Hardcase-...
i find that black finish on the bowl to be elegant beyond belief.
if you're concerned to see what's inside the oud you select, why don't you take along one of those pencil-thin flashlights and try to get a hold of
one of those tiny, circular mirrors that dentists use.
- bill
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dana
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Indeed that is beautiful, and yes of course my appitite is whetted! Actually I am fairly certian that I will buy an instrument from the shop Latif
Bolaf suggested, he has worked with them many times over the past ten years with great success.
Do you use the traditional shaped plectrum? I am wondering at the advantage of that over a guitar pick - but I have been married to guitar picks so
long now its like they are an extension of my fingers, ya know?
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billkilpatrick
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| Quote: | Originally posted by dana
Indeed that is beautiful, and yes of course my appitite is whetted! Actually I am fairly certian that I will buy an instrument from the shop Latif
Bolaf suggested, he has worked with them many times over the past ten years with great success.
Do you use the traditional shaped plectrum? I am wondering at the advantage of that over a guitar pick - but I have been married to guitar picks so
long now its like they are an extension of my fingers, ya know? |
david parfitt posted this address a while back:
http://www.franolic-oud.com/index_en.html
have a listen to the mp3s in the discography section. he uses a guitar pick (though i can't seem to find the photo that proves it.)
i use a very soft, white nylon pick sometimes (jim dunlop: 35mm or 46mm) but for volume - projection - in my opinion the risha works best.
- bill
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dana
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OK, knew there was a reason, but knowing me I will try both.
thx!
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Brian Prunka
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Hi Dana,
ouds are relatively inexpensive compared to cellos, that's for sure. And rishas don't cost anywhere near as much as a bow . . .
I wanted to mention a couple of things regarding playing with a risha vs. a guitar pick.
I also come from playing guitar (jazz, w/a pick) and still do, so I am very wedded to the regular guitar pick. The guitar pick has some advantages
over the risha, primarily being that it is held flat--making upstrokes and downstrokes nearly identical motions. Utilizing upstrokes on oud is
significantly more complicated.
However, the risha has a huge impact on the timbre of the notes produced. A guitar pick won't give you the real "oud sound", IMO. Further, the way
the risha is held is crucial to producing a good tremolo.
The risha is a little awkward at first, but it's worth investing the time in developing it. I've found it helped focus and refine my guitar picking
skills as well.
Bill's mention of projection is definitely true as well.
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dana
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Brian Prunka
Hi Dana,
ouds are relatively inexpensive compared to cellos, that's for sure. And rishas don't cost anywhere near as much as a bow . . .
I wanted to mention a couple of things regarding playing with a risha vs. a guitar pick.
I also come from playing guitar (jazz, w/a pick) and still do, so I am very wedded to the regular guitar pick. The guitar pick has some advantages
over the risha, primarily being that it is held flat--making upstrokes and downstrokes nearly identical motions. Utilizing upstrokes on oud is
significantly more complicated.
However, the risha has a huge impact on the timbre of the notes produced. A guitar pick won't give you the real "oud sound", IMO. Further, the way
the risha is held is crucial to producing a good tremolo.
The risha is a little awkward at first, but it's worth investing the time in developing it. I've found it helped focus and refine my guitar picking
skills as well.
Bill's mention of projection is definitely true as well. |
I am big on bowing to the collective wisdom and all that, so learning to play with a risha will be part of the trip, just needed to ask. I bet they
come in different thicknesses like guitar picks too.........something else to learn, I'm good with that.
Yes, cellos are way more expensive but of course are much much harder to produce, what with the massive carved top and all. Here this will make you
choke: included in the price was the bridge, added by the shop here. The bridge is at the low end of the scale (and bear in mind its simply a very
fine piece of wood, carved in an intricate shape): $200.00. So I guess the remainder of the instrment was $1800.00.
And the bows? I really don't understand that at all. My wife took her first lesson yesterday, and her teacher had a custom bow that had not only light
colored horse hair but an even amount of dark horse hair. This makes for better friction, so I am told, which is better sound on a cello. I don't even
want to think about how much that must have cost the instructor. I do know that he bought his French cello 20 years ago for $3000 and now its worth
$13000 - so it only gets worse and worse. At least I won't feel bad spending under a thousand for an oud!
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billkilpatrick
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| Quote: | Originally posted by dana
At least I won't feel bad spending under a thousand for an oud! |
you may be comforted somewhat by a similar correspondence on the lute list not long ago from the father of a lute loving teenage girl in japan. he
balked, at first, about the $1000+ purchase price of a so-so student lute but when he checked out the price of a so-so cello that he would have
preferred his daughter to play ... oddly enough ... he came round to her point of view.
- bill
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dana
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LOL! In any event, its totally worth it to me, my wife is so happy about this, and she is worth it.
If you are interested, check tomorrow on my blog, you can read the whole cello story its hopefully a bit amusing:
http://www.braintransfer.org/songblog/
dana
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