Hosam
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 12-6-2005
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Fake ouds on ebay
This is not the first time an oud being sold online as an antique or for a famous maker being discussed as original or not by members in these forums.
Nobody claimed to be an expert. Some will give their opinions and reasons why they would think one way or the other.
This is the fourth oud being questioned or discussed sold by the same seller on ebay (now a member, welcome to the forum Mr. Zarzour). One ‘Fadel’
oud was confirmed to be a fake by Yaroub Mhmad Fadhel. One ‘Nahat’ got the fake/high risk vote but everybody at least agreed that the label is a
fake in that discussion. The third on was a ‘DerBedrossian’ where an interesting note about the face being heavily sanded down and crude
workmanship for the rosette was noticed (more on this later). The last one is another ‘Nahat’ where I gave my opinion that the oud is fake only to
find out that my online purchase history being brought up instead of giving solid facts about why the oud is legit.
Here are the above mentioned threads
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=4228
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=3930#pid262...
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=4652
I was very surprised that no questions were asked about the oud. Statements like the friend who have 30 Nahats, making Nahat label is very easy, I am
an expert in ouds, I am not a seller, All what I sold on ebay till now are about 10 ouds, maybe something was replace, went unnoticed , unchallenged
and unquestioned.
The questioned that I would like to ask is: What exactly the parts that were replaced? Is the face original or it was replaced? Why the pegbox wood is
different from that of the neck and the body? Why the inlay is inconsistent in different parts of the oud? Was the oud refinished or stained? Was the
face sanded down and why? Is that label original?
When that oud was purchased? Can you please post a close up photos for the back and pegbox inlay?
I do have a detailed list of why I think this oud is not genuine. I may post the list with photos if I get a strait answers for those questions.
I will apologize to Mr. Zarzour the minute I find out that I was wrong about this oud; that it if this oud was taken to an expert for examination and
verified to be authentic Hana Nahat made in 1913 as claimed to be. But who is going to apologize to the person who bought the ‘Fadel’ oud? Or to
the others if those ouds turned out to be fakes? As the matter of fact, there is ethical and legal responsibility to anyone to verify the
authenticity of an antique oud before offering it for sale.
There are a lot more fake Nahats than authentic ones out there. The Nahat fake varies from the ridiculously obvious to the more convincing ones which
may have original parts from wreck Nahats. Does this make them authentic? Some of the fakes can be recognized just from photos. Dismissing an oud to
be authentic is much easier than confirming that it is genuine which can only be establish by an expert after examining the oud. Sure forging a more
convincing label is easy; finding out that this label is forged beyond doubt is also easy.
It is important to establish what makes an oud authentic especially when the vague statement of some parts may have been replaced is involved?
There are many respectful members in these forums that have and sometime sell authentic Nahats. If I am not mistaken none of them will ever offer them
on ebay for $499. Memebers here who bought antique ouds (by any maker not just Nahat) knows exactly how difficult to find just one. When somebody
starts talking about a truck load of Nahats then I am sure what kind of Nahats he is talking about.
I would like to end this post with the obvious, bidding on ‘antique’ oud on ebay does not necessary establish a recognition that this oud is
genuine especially when the price is relatively comparable to ouds made by unknown luthiers. People buy ouds for different reasons.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
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Hi Hossam
check out these threads from another guy from syria that had "real nahats"
This is an ongoing problem with ouds comming out of syria. They see the opportunity to make the bucks.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/misc.php?action=search
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=3594#pid236...
This is what I would like to add. The oud doesnt have any of the proper nahat characteristics and most would agree that at the verry best it may have
restored nahat parts. But definetly isnt in an original state. It isnt in the history of the nahat oud producing family to use an different label out
of nowhere. I noticed the same thing as you about the different woods for the pegbox. The pegs for the mohamed fadel are the same as the pegs for
another oud being sold.
But on the other side.... it does sound good. So if the price had stayed at 499$ even though its a fake and its being sold as an original. It might
still be a good oud.
Ethics whise though... yeah its down the drain
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Hosam
Oud Junkie
Posts: 180
Registered: 12-6-2005
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I agree with you Samir. I even liked the sound of the ‘Sempat’ more. After all these ouds were also made by luthiers! Sometime they go through a
great deal staining the oud with special chemicals often used by antique restorer to make it look old. This problem is not true only for ouds. I have
read that 99.99% of all Stradivari violins being sold are fakes.
Here is another photo for easy to recognize Nahat fake!
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zou
Oud Junkie
Posts: 146
Registered: 10-25-2006
Location: France
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to mr hosam,
when you go to syria, lot of family have nahat ouds, and in syria none could sell them very expensive (in syria we could not afford to buy an oud 2000
or more because money is needed), i saw in the internet a nahat sold for 14000 do, in syria you can live 3 years (perhaps) with this money, conclusion
: because there is oud collectors who have the money to buy it, that the nahat ouds are so priced, i dont know if this oud is a fake or not but i
agree with nasir when he said that a lot of nahat ouds are unplayable because they have some problems, you know.. there are some stradivari
unplayable...nahat ouds are old and age could create problems...i have a nahat an antun nahat and it had some problems (action, peg box...), i had to
restaure it to be playable!!!!!! definitly the sound is the best method to jugde ; nasir played a beautifull music with the both ouds and i'm
convinced, i think that if we want to understand (and to be an "expert") in nahat ouds we have to leave the "myth" of there perfection.
excuse my english and i hope you anderstand my opinion.
best regards
ziad
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Hosam
Oud Junkie
Posts: 180
Registered: 12-6-2005
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Hello Ziad,
Most of the old gems made by Nahat or other master luthiers around the same era in Egypt and Syria have already found a new home abroad or in the Gulf
area due to the weak economy in both countries. The rest are being played by top artist and musicians or in the collection of very serious and quite
few collectors.
Due to the delicate structure nature of the oud all ouds will eventually need some sort of repairs, resetting or adjustment even when the oud is
properly cared for. These are not considered problems. If the oud is abused, had a major accident or simply too old then a major repair/restoration
is called for. Some of the older Nahats were repaired by later Nahats or by other master luthiers. A second label with the date of the repair was
usually placed next to the original one.
The only similarity between Stradivari and Nahat ouds is that both are being highly prized and thought after by two different cultures this is where
it ends. As far as I know a wreck Stradivari will still cost a lot more than any oud ever made. The price of genuine Stradivari is really
astronomical.
A good player will make a normal oud sounds great, a great oud sounds awesome. The sound for that oud was too bright at least for me maybe due to the
smaller size. I really liked the sound of the ‘Sempat’ more. Great playing anyway.
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Hosam
Oud Junkie
Posts: 180
Registered: 12-6-2005
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Mr. Zarzour, I knew exactly what I was bidding on. The problem is, if someone else didn’t and decided to start legal proceedings if the oud turned
out to be not genuine. Fraud and forgery are pretty serious. I suggest that you take all of your antique ouds to someone qualified for close
inspection. This is the only way to determine if those ouds are authentic or not. A lot of people here can help you find out to whom you can take
those ouds depending on your area. This is what you should have done in first place before making those ouds available for sale.
Good luck.
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zou
Oud Junkie
Posts: 146
Registered: 10-25-2006
Location: France
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to mr nasir,
i have to say that mr antun nahat died in 1936...so your nahat can't be genuine.
ziad
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will_oud
Oud Maniac
Posts: 75
Registered: 6-4-2006
Location: San Antonio Texas USA
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Why couldn't this be solved by email?
William F. Sparks
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zou
Oud Junkie
Posts: 146
Registered: 10-25-2006
Location: France
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ok
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zou
Oud Junkie
Posts: 146
Registered: 10-25-2006
Location: France
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mr, will_oud,
i think that this kind of discussion have to take place here publicly to make oud buyers more precise and more carefull..not to break négociations or
transactions..you dont think so ?
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will_oud
Oud Maniac
Posts: 75
Registered: 6-4-2006
Location: San Antonio Texas USA
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I understand that future oud buyers need to be aware of fakes and counterfits. I was just afraid it was about to turn in to a fight.
William F. Sparks
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Alan
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 9-30-2003
Location: Tampa Bay Florida
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As usual let the buyer beware.
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