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billkilpatrick
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| Quote: | Originally posted by al-Halabi
Microber,
You picked nice examples of ornamenation typical of Turkish oud playing, and from an oud master with a delicate technique. Your first sample is
exactly the carpma. In this descending phrase each of the notes is preceded by a rapid light touch on the next higher note. It is best executed by
playing down the fingerboard on the second and third courses, beginning from the re (muhayyer) on the fifth position of the second course. The index
finger moves down the course, with the third finger touching the next higher note in the scale just before moving down to the next note, when this
pattern is repeated, until the final note of the phrase mi (the open third course). |
more or less as described, i was able to do this. don't know if it's what you had in mind but it sounded nice.
... what next?
sitting-up, paying attention (many thanks) - bill
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Masel
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How about the opposite of the carpma, this is what I use more: stirking a note and immediately after pulling the finger off so that the open string
plays. It has a really nice arabic feel.
Another thing is where you would perhaps normally play tremolo on a long note (or just strike it once and let it ring), you can play a sort of
"half-speed" tremolo, especially at the end of a phrase, so that it sounds very grandiose. Onto this you could add a quick legato, and cut the tremolo
in half again, which would result in the combination of these two ornamentations. For example, play an open string G (in arabic tuning), and hammer
on an A without striking the string again, then when you release the A note strike the string again, ad infinitum...
One last thing that is used in both arabic and turkish music (I think) is inventing short sequences when improvising, or when filling gaps in between
longer notes. If the numbers represent degrees of the scale (1=tonic, 2=second, 3=third etc.), for instance try instead of 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 to play 5 6,
4 5, 3 4, 2 3, 1 2, 1. I hope this isn't too clumsy of an example, it's really recognisable and easy to understand if you hear it. This type of music
is made up of many sequences that repeat, probably because the melody is free-er when not bound up by harmony.
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Microber
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A few short soundclip to illustrate the examples would be very appreciated.
Too passionate and important to miss something.
Robert
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billkilpatrick
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Masel
How about the opposite of the carpma, this is what I use more: stirking a note and immediately after pulling the finger off so that the open string
plays. It has a really nice arabic feel.
Another thing is where you would perhaps normally play tremolo on a long note (or just strike it once and let it ring), you can play a sort of
"half-speed" tremolo, especially at the end of a phrase, so that it sounds very grandiose. Onto this you could add a quick legato, and cut the tremolo
in half again, which would result in the combination of these two ornamentations. For example, play an open string G (in arabic tuning), and hammer
on an A without striking the string again, then when you release the A note strike the string again, ad infinitum...
One last thing that is used in both arabic and turkish music (I think) is inventing short sequences when improvising, or when filling gaps in between
longer notes. If the numbers represent degrees of the scale (1=tonic, 2=second, 3=third etc.), for instance try instead of 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 to play 5 6,
4 5, 3 4, 2 3, 1 2, 1. I hope this isn't too clumsy of an example, it's really recognisable and easy to understand if you hear it. This type of music
is made up of many sequences that repeat, probably because the melody is free-er when not bound up by harmony. |
got those already, thanks ... clumsy-not and crystal clear.
my favorite probably owes more to lester flatt than any string-hero from the mid-east:
876,765,654,543,432,321,21-7,1 ... i think that's how it's written. (trichord jin?) being able to play that "run" with a medium tremolo (alternating
between strings where necessary) was something of a milestone for me.
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John Erlich
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Hi Rob,
I am not making a value judgement except to say that I think Adel's style is very original. There both advantages and disadvantages to conservatory
training--I often hear jazz musicians complain that everyone trained at the Berklee College of Music sounds alike. I don't think that Adel's playing
is technically on par with Simon Shaheen or Taiseer Elias, but I still prefer listening to him because of his "musicality."
Does that make sense?
Peace,
Udi John
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Oudoneit
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Sorry to have jumped on you a little there, Udi John. I've written my review of the concert on another thread - Adel Salem UK Tour. Suffice for this
thread on ornamentaion to say that I didn't notice one carpma all night. What I did notice was a fairly relentless barrage of tremolandi, and when
these tremolos were on open strings he would suddenly waive his left arm around in a distracting fashion - which is maybe stretching the definition of
ornamentation a little in this context!
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John Erlich
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No problem, Rob. My main point is that Adel's playing style is "Palestinian, with a twist" not "Andalusian" (which could mean a couple of different
things).
Your description of Adel's playing in the concert is surprising, but I have never heard him live (I live in California, USA). It seems so unlike the
playing on his 1996 recording (re-released as "Master of the Oud"):
http://www.amazon.com/Master-Oud-Adel-Salameh/dp/B00007KFR3/sr=1-2/...
On this recording, you hear incredibly lyrical playing with very little showing off.
His playing on "Nuzha" and "Kanza" sounds to me to be in the same vein, but maybe he's in a "shredding" phase right now.
Peace,
Udi John
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Oudoneit
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His latest CD, Rissala, is really good. I will play it a lot. Quite different from his concert and workshop.
I'm sorry this discussion has been side tracked - my fault. Can we get back to the very interesting discussion of ornamentation?
Rob
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billkilpatrick
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this will appear obvious to those who already do ... but for anyone with a limited ability to read music (myself, foremost) singing the line -
ornamentation, in this case - or humming it is a good way to pick it up. i also find that following the singer in any given piece is usually a good
starting point for improvisation.
i believe that singing the note, before learning how to read it, is considered pukka suzuki method - how can a zillion violin players be wrong?
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Oudoneit
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| Quote: | Originally posted by billkilpatrick
how can a zillion violin players be wrong? |
Well, for a start - they play the violin!
Rob
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Arto
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al-Halabi wrote:
"The typical Turkish ornament referred to here (carpma) has two basic forms. One is a grace note that is either hammered on or played with an
upstroke. This added note is played just before the succeeding note, and is joined to it in legato syle. It is counted as part of the note that
precedes it so it does not change the time of the next note. The second form is a more staccato version of this grace note. This is the one that I
think Oudoneit is describing. Mutlu Torun termed it a "silent tap" (sessiz carpma) to indicate that it is a very light and brief ornamental touch on
the string that provides a tissue connecting two notes with an ornament that does not stand out as a clear distinct note."
I´d like to check a little more of this. If we take as an example the upper rast etud of Mutlu Torun´s book scanned earlier and the second measure
of it. B note is held by first left hand finger and the carpma is touched with the second finger. Where do I use the pick? I pick the first B note,
hammer-on the carpma? And then? Do I pull off the second B note, or pick it? And what then?
For those four written notes in the measure (B,B,B,A), I think I could play with it with 6 pick strokes if I use the pick for every note and grace
note, or with only 2 pick strokes (first B and last A) and play all the rest with left hand fingers. How does the tutor mean it to be played?
This grace note stuff is very interesting, as I really like all the nuances Turkish players are using (I think "super-sensitive" was the expression
used in Cinucen Tanrokorur CD´s liner notes for his playing), and would be nice to get some into my own VERY basic and dry playing....
Thanks, Arto
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Oudoneit
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Arto,
My understanding of it is that you only pluck BBBA - the second finger does not hammer down, but just touches the string to stop it sounding, choking
it. You therefore play four strokes with the right hand. It is not a mordent.
I may be wrong...
Rob
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al-Halabi
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Rob, you are right. In the kind of carpma indicated in this etude, the measure is played with four downstrokes. A split second before playing the
second and third B you touch the C lightly to dampen the note.
There is also a legato version of the carpma used in Turkish music, in which you sound the grace note more fully (it is usually indicated by a
miniature note). In this more legato form of the grace note the measure could be played either (1) with six pick strokes, including two quick
upstrokes on the grace notes C, or (2) with four downstrokes plus two hammer downs on the grace notes.
Although the "silent" type of carpma indicated in the etude is the one most commonly used in Turkish music, all three types are used and it's
worthwhile learning all of them.
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billkilpatrick
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just trolling around youtube and found this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGXkBD2RX44
... the first 10 seconds of which have a very attractive run - my homework for the weekend.
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billkilpatrick
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stillworking on the previous one but here's another youtube video with some interesting - and do-able - ornamentation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if9BRU4W1BE
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wazza
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hi everybody
I would like to modestly contribute to this interesting thread.
with my teacher we discussed the ornamentation issue, he said to me that I must concentrate when he's playing, also he slows playing speed down to
allow me to catch the ornamentation.
here are some ones applied to the mini scale : G F E D C (C Minor scale - nahawand on C)
I hope you will like
Regards
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wazza
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here is the score of the previously uploaded midi file
(note that I have used the sixty-fourth duration -quadruple croche - notes to simulate the tremolo in the oud)
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SamirCanada
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wow..thanks for that
It makes for a nice structured pratice.
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