hmahgoub
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Bowel Ebony or Pallisander
Dear all,
I am going to buy a new oud and i am confused between making the ebony or pallisander bowel.
Can you please advise me which one i should choose.
Thanks
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Haluk
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Ebony is not useful for bowl.It is very hard and heavy wood over the world.It is only wood sinks in the water.
There are several woods for to make instrument bowls.
Good luck.
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SamirCanada
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I think what people refer to as ebony for the back of the oud is really affrican black wood. wich is a rosewood species. Verry hard, Verry dark too
but with yellow streaks from time to time.
I have a palissander oud my next one would be made of affrican black wood or "ebony".
Its a mather of preference They sound different and feel different. Either way your going to have to get used to it. I had a walnut oud. It was
lighter then the palissander and the ebony one will be heavier. So you have to get used to it.
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Lazzaro
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The back of my new Shehata oud is made of ebony and palisander. I share a little video of Mamdoh El Gibaly playng my new oud.
best regards Maurizio
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palestine48
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what is pallisander?
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samzayed
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While I was in the process of commissioning an oud from Master Faruk Turunz, I did some research in this subject. Here's my 2 cents:
As far as ebony goes, there are many species of ebony. So when you say the bowl will be made of ebony, I would hope that doesn't mean its the same
species as what's used to make the pegs and fingerboard. That type of ebony is not appropriate for the bowl. Chances are, the ebony that will be
used to make the bowl will be Macassar Ebony. This type of wood is used as an alternative to rosewood, with similar densities, and tonal
characteristics. This has been a popular wood among guitar makers, and oud makers as well.
It should be noted that there are many species of rosewood as well. Generally, they have similar sounds, but I'm sure there are people who can
recognize and prefer the nuances of one over the other. The types of rosewoods are East Indian, Brazillian, Honduran, Amazon, African Blackwood, and
Bolivian. Like Samir said, African Blackwood looks like ebony but comes from the same family as rosewood, not ebony.
Palisander is just a french word meaning rosewood. I don't think it refers to a specific species.
Here are some links to good references on the subject of tonewoods:
http://www.dreamguitars.com/tonewoods.htm
http://www.mangore.com/special-requests.html
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samzayed
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Another thing about woods when it comes to the oud: most of the sound is really the product of the soundboard, not so much the bowl. The wood of the
bowl adds color to the sound, but real essence of the sound comes from the soundboard (face + the braces behind it). I heard a ratio of 80/20, where
80% comes from the face, and 20% from the bowl.
I think, and this is just my opinion, if one is really concerned about sound, he/she should make sure soundboard is done well, and then worry about
the bowl.
That's just what I've heard about ouds and read about guitars. So if anyone has a different opinion, please share.
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SamirCanada
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Sam I really feel the same way you do about the sound production. The other point I would like to add is that I would place it at 70% construction +
wood of the face, 10% bowl material ( how it projects or absorbs some of the sounds)+ 20% strings. ( why else would the sound change so drasticaly
when different types of tention/materials are used for strings) And really thats where the sound comes from in the first place. The face and bowl are
just amplifiying the sound. right?
( these numbers are only my observation and dont reflect any kind of calculations whatsoever)
By the way Sam, I think that palissander rosewood talked about in ouds is verry close to teak? what do you think?
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samzayed
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Hi Samir, I really don't know what teak is. I've heard a few translations of what rosewood is in arabic. I've heard it referred to as "khajjab ward"
or "see-sam". I know I've heard of "teak" but I can't remember where or for what oud.
I agree with what you mean on strings. You get drastic differences if you tune your oud down a half step, for example. I think that may be the
secret of old classic oud sounds - they used to tune below concert pitch of 400 Hz. Sometimes I think we are chasing that sound with different woods
when you can get close by tuning down 1/4 - 1/2 step.
What you said is interesting about where the sound is coming from. You can listen to your favorite oud sound unplugged, and can sound very different
in a studio. Sometimes worse, and sometimes better. This is just what I've heard - I have no direct experience with this.
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Haluk
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Since 1965 I am maker of instruments and I know the Ebony is a hard wood like iron,very good for pegs and fingerboards.
Please don't try to give it's name to other woods.There is only one Ebony,hardest and heaviest. Some woods may be from same family,but they have their
own name,like cat and tiger.
The oud should be light and easy to hold.You will need another person for to carry an Ebony oud.
What happened to other beautiful,acoustic woods?
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samzayed
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Haluk Usta, with all due respect, I am not trying to refer to ebony by another name. That's why I called the ebony I was referring to as "Macassar
Ebony" - I doubt that is the same kind of ebony you were referring to. I think traditionally we think of ebony as wood for pegs and finerboards.
I was trying to make the distinction that there are different species of the same wood. Just as there is a cat and a tiger . . .
For example, the ebony for the pegs I think is called "Diospyros ebenum". The Macassar Ebony is "Diospyrus Celebica"
Check out this guitar, made of Macassar Ebony:
http://www.sheppardguitars.com/02prices.htm
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Lintfree
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The ebony usually referred to as "ebony" is usually the Gaboon from Africa or East Indian ebony, hard brittle, black. Macassar ebony, (with yellow
streaks) makes great guitar backs and sides and has a nice boom to it. John Bilezekjian has a Manol that has an ebony bowl. It's the one on the cover
of his method book. What kind of ebony it is I don''t know. Macassar is great for bowls as are most of the rosewoods. Brazillian is the best but there
is a restriction on trading in goods made from it unless it;s very old). Kokobolo is a close second (Mr. Turunz uses Kokobolo). But most of the
monster ouds I have played are walnut/mahogany, Indian rosewood, Olive/mahogany(Mustafa).
As most people on this posting would agree, go for the top wood. German/European quarter sawn or split and as old as possible.Good luck.
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Hosam
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Hmahgoub, Palisander will make a fine oud. If you do not mind a heavier oud and the extra cost then you can go with all ebony or ebony/any other type
of wood combination (it does not necessarily means a better oud but maybe a louder one with a different color/character).
Wood species have different names depending on language and region, When Palisander is used alone, it usually refers to “Dalbergia baroni” which
is one of the rosewood species from Madagascar. The other two species are “Dalbergia maritime” (Bois de Rose) and “Dalbergia trichocarpa”
(Manipika). When Madagascar rosewood or Palissandre de Madagascar in French is used it could mean any of the three species!
This is why it is better to use Latin names to avoid any confusion.
Some of the Latin names for wood mentioned in this thread,
Cocobolo “Dalbergia retusa” (Mexico & C. America),
E. Indian Rosewood (Palissandre des Indes in French) “Dalbergia latifolia” (India and S.E. Asia),
Indian Rosewood “Dalbergia sissoo” Sisso, sesam or shisham among many other names
This is traditionally used in the Middle East for the bowel
Teak “Tectona grandis” this is not related to rosewood or ebony families.
Some people refer to any black wood as Ebony. For the oud bowl that could be “Diospyros celebica” (Maccasar Ebony) a true ebony species from
Celebes Islands (actually one island Sulawesi, Indonesia) or “Dalbergia melanoxylon” (African Blackwood) which is a rosewood species.
Other ebony species are “Diospyros ebenun” (S.E. Asia, India), “Diospyros crassiflora” (W. Africa-Gabon, Cameron, Nigeria) and “Diospyros
perrieri” (Madagascar), that all can be used for pegs and fingerboards. I am not sure if any of these species has been used for the oud bowl or not,
but I do not see any reason for not using them.
I agree that the strings will affect the oud sound but this is not due to that the strings have their own sound. The only sound generating part of the
oud is the face and the braces. The strings function as a vibrating source or exciter for the face and have no sound of it is own. Striking a tuning
fork to start vibrating and placing it on the face will let you hear the sound of the oud with no strings. The back of the oud will amplify/project
the sound.
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samzayed
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Hosam
Hmahgoub, Palisander will make a fine oud. If you do not mind a heavier oud and the extra cost then you can go with all ebony or ebony/any other type
of wood combination (it does not necessarily means a better oud but maybe a louder one with a different color/character).
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For my next oud, I picked 2 alternating woods - Macassar Ebony and Rosewood (Amazon Rosewood, which is an alternative to the rare and hard to find
Brazillian). I picked these two woods simply because I was interested in their sounds, based on some research I did. My hope was that combining the
two woods, will give me a combination of both sounds.
My question is - does combining 2 kinds of woods water down the characteristics of each type of wood, or would you still get a significant impact from
both types of woods as they're used together. Let me put it another way - will I really get the best of worlds?
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SamirCanada
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Hossam,
Can you clarify something for me, how is it that when one uses strings made of different material you get a different sound even though your playing
the same note. Like using a wound or a nylon for a 3rd course brings a different sound even though the same note is played.
I would think that when you strike that tuning fork it produces the note that fork's note right. So when you stick it against the face of the oud you
will get that vibration of the note from the fork to transfer on to the face and amplify that vibration. Same thing when you hum into the oud the
vibrating air makes the face vibrate and some notes vibrate more then others according to the bracing Iam sure.
confused.
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riadh.3oud
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I think that bowl oud in ebony or palissander not a good choise, light wood can be better (walnut for exemple)
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Ronny Andersson
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Worth to check out this: http://www.art-robb.co.uk/cons.html
Haluk is offcourse right about ebony not being a good wood for bowls. The sound is terrible.
Best wishes
Ronny
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jdowning
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I think that riadh.3oud is correct in stating that neither ebony nor rosewood are the best materials for an oud bowl. The same applies to lutes - and
some early texts mention these materials as being inferior for lute construction as I recall. As far as I know the early Arabic texts mention the
lighter hardwoods such as walnut - never ebony or rosewood. Not only better but lighter, cheaper, less toxic and easier to work.
Having said that the more exotic South American hardwoods were used by luthiers of the 16th and 17th C for guitars bodies.
However, at the end of the day, if you prefer the sound and heft of an ebony/rosewood oud over one made from walnut/mahogany, long tradition matters
little so go with it - winds of change and all of that good stuff.
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SamirCanada
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Ronny, what is your experiance with ebony ouds? Because I want to get one as my next oud. I liked the sound from a video post but of course I have
never tried one out in person. Have you tried one?
I mean it seems like what is actualy being used is not gaboon ebony wich the extreemly hard kind of wood. But the others woods that look black but
belong in a rosewood species or are not the hardest type of ebony.
How would those woods react different then a rosewood bowl given that they are both hard types of wood.
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zalzal
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Somewhere in the link provided by Ronny Anderson it is said that mpingo (african blackwood)
"...it is considered one of the better alternatives to Brazilian Rosewood for guitar backs and sides..."
and also
"...The luthier Jeffrey Elliott (Portland OR USA) is on record as stating that for backs and sides, African Blackwood is to Brazilian Rosewood as
Brazilian Rosewood is to Indian Rosewood - that it has a superset of the desirable qualities for which Brazilian Rosewood is prized...."
If mpingo is good for the back of a guitar we can suppose that it is good for the bowl of an oud.....
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Haluk
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The oud should be light behind deep and bright sound.
Our great oud master Manol generally used Walnut-Mahagony combinations on his best ouds.
Ebony is useful for fingerboard and pegs.
Regards all.
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samzayed
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That's a great observation Zalzal. Basically, I've always been under the assumption that if the wood works for a guitar, it should work for an oud.
I know there are obvious difference in the shape of an oud bowl vs. the flat back of a guitar, but I don't see how that would really matter
Macassar Ebony has become a very popular wood for guitars, so why are some against it for ouds?
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Hosam
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Samzayed,
it is impossible to accurately predict how two different wood species used for the bowl will interact with each other acoustically and what will be
the resulting tone character that they will produce. Most likely it will be a blend of the two. I think using more than one species for the oud back
has more to do with structural and visual/atheistic aspect than acoustic. I can not tell what kind of wood is used for back of any oud by just
listening to the oud sound, I am not sure if anybody can. The difference is too subtle to differentiate. By the way, Amazon rosewood is in my short
list of beautiful wood (not including figured wood). I have posted a photo for different wood strips in my oud project, first band from the top are
Amazon rosewood. The photo did not do justice to the wood. This wood is not endangered as Brazilian rosewood as you said, it is also much heavier than
all but very few rosewood species. So good choice.
Using hard wood with higher density is not a new concept, it was also traditionally used for ouds back. Many luthiers consider Indian rosewood among
the best wood and readily use it for higher end ouds. Exotic hard wood also allows to go thinner with the ribs because of it is strength.
Samir,
you get a different sound because of the different mode of vibration you get due to different tension, length and density from different strings even
when playing the same note at the same frequency.
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SamirCanada
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Thanks Hosam,
I didnt know that was the cause for the different sounds. I guess that even though there the same notes the tention can be different.
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AGAPANTHOS
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At first place i believe that the dilemma a bowl made from ebony or rosewood is false for a number of reasons. I am not going to explain them for the
time being.
Secondly, the only argument that is not in need of verification is that wood who belongs to the extremes(very soft wood with very low density
gradient vs very hard and britlle and stiff wood with a density gradient considerably grater the 1) is not appropriate for the bowl of the oud for
multiple reasons that have to do with the handling of the material, the mechanics and most of all the acoustical behavior of it, e.t.c. e.t.c.
Lastly we don't have to confuse and talk indifferently about the quitar (which type of quitar? ) with the oud because they are completely different
instruments from any point of view.
The Diospyrous family comprises several species that could be used ( and they actually are in use for a long time)for the bowl of the oud.The same is
true for the Dalbergia family.There are certain species of the Dalbergia family that are in extensive use for the construction of the bowl of the
oud.
Species of both families with, i would say, mild physical characteristics and properties (hardness, texture, chemical substance, density, e.t.c.) and
a density gradient that is close /but inferior to 1 could be used with ease and success under the condition that the wood is properly quartersawn and
very well seasoned.
One very typical case of wood that is originated to the Diospyrous family is ,as it was already mentioned, Macassar ebony from Polynysia. Another
one, but questionable case, belonging to the Dalbergia family, is cocobolo, Dalbergia Retusa.
It is true that the world of wood is immense and without limits because of the material itself (an heterogenous material).
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