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John Erlich
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 8-26-2004
Location: California, USA
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Samir & Al-Halabi,
I'm no expert on Eastern Christian chant, but I'm guessing al-Halabi might be right about "Ana Al-Umm Al-Hazina" being more recent. My understanding
is that the Syriac churches (Maronite, Syrian Orthodox, Assyrian, Chaldean, etc.) traditionally use Syriac in their liturgy, but have been evolving in
the direction using more Arabic in recent decades (kind of like the Catholic Church evolving from Latin Mass to vernacular).
I noticed one site which posts the whole album "Good Friday Eastern Sacred Songs" including Fairuz' version of this song and other Arabic-language
chants: http://www.marmarita.com/music/easter/main.html
Also, I assume that I wasn't the only one to notice the Fairuz version of "Kamat Mariyam" included in the sountrack of "Before Night Falls." It was
extremely jarring to me to hear an Eastern Christian chant among the sensuous, rocking Cuban music!
http://www.amazon.com/Before-Night-Falls-Carter-Burwell/dp/B000059Q... (see/hear #14) Weird, huh? I want to know how Carter Burwell found the Fairuz recording and why he used it!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shlama lakhun,
Udi John
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kkeys
Oud Addict
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Registered: 6-14-2006
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“Musically speaking, If an arab made a RAP song and put arabic text in it, and played it for the arabs.... it is still RAP music not arabic.”
(kkeys)
((((Ah! This is the heart of our disagreement! I totally disagree with you. As far as I’m concerned, rap in the Arabic language is legitimately
“Arabic music” I am not a professional ethnomusicologist, but I’ll bet my belief reflects the predominant thinking among the professional
academics. Your comment seems to me to reflect an untenable thesis that the “authentic” music of a culture is not subject to change. This is
observably false.)))
I have a simpler explanation:
When a nation doesn't find the tools to establish a culture they steal somebody elses...... and claim it for themselves.
Isnt it wiered that I don't have this problem with any other group of people .......
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SamirCanada
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Thanks To Alami, al Halabi and John Erlich for your contributions.
I found this wonderfull site in french of the orchestra of father michel tarabay. Its called sawt el atiq.
http://www.qolo.org/musique_maronite.html
There is more info on maronite chants there.
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al-Halabi
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Kkeys,
There is a large literature on Arab music, including numerous treatises in Arabic going as far back as the ninth century. If you read these works you
will find that premodern Arab scholars on music, like the great al-Farabi, consistently began their discussion of music with a tribute to ancient
Greek music, which they adopted (or “stole”) as the basis of their own scientific understanding of the tonal and modal system. They discussed the
Pythagorean intervals and ratios, and the construction of tetrachords, using analytical methods that they openly acknowledged were Greek. The word
musiqa in Arabic was “stolen” from Greek. In the course of the 9th and 10th centuries the Arabs adopted new styles, microtones, ornamentations,
and modes from Persian music. There was at the time a big cultural debate between those who wanted to hold on to the older Arabic styles (foremost
among them the great oud player Ishaq al-Mawsili) and those who welcomed the innovations (led by the Abbasid prince Ibn al-Mahdi). The latter group
prevailed and Arab music was transformed through what you call “stealing” of somebody else’s culture. It is then that the microtonal intervals
entered Arab music and were added to the Pythagorean intervals, and Persian theory came prevail. In Ottoman times the Arabs adopted new maqams that
were developed by composers around the sultan’s court in Istanbul. They also adopted the sama’i, which was developed in Istanbul and spread to the
Arab provinces, to be played as part of Arab music until today. The process of “stealing” continued into the twentieth century, when Arabs adopted
western instruments, western notation, large orchestras, conservatories, new theories, and other aspects of music originating in European cultures.
Did the Arabs adopt so much from the Greeks, Persians, Turks, and Europeans because of cultural poverty, which led them to “steal” from others
“and claim it for themselves”? Or was this process an indication of their ability to adapt, innovate, and create new syntheses by combining older
elements with foreign features that appealed to them? Are the Arabs the group with which you have a problem because of cultural stealing?
I am wondering if your comments are really serious because they are so breathtakingly uniformed. Why don’t you read some medieval Arabic writings on
music - you will encounter an open-minded, curious, analytical, and tolerant approach from which you might learn something.
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al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
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Samir,
Thanks for the link. Beautiful chants on the two featured CDs, although the pieces are too short. As the notes point out, this Maronite religious
music is so embedded in the folk traditions of Lebanon it is hard to separate the two.
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excentrik
Oud Junkie
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al-Halabi-
Your understanding of the historical narratives surrounding Classical Arabic music is well appreciated and should be taken seriously. There is no
pure peoples or cultures on earth. period. many thousands of years of cross-trading and synthesis have occured and rendered (especially in the Near
East, Asia, and Africa) this "root" non-existent. You are right.
However, and I think kkeys was trying to point out, that a Colonial State such as Israel is just that- a synthesis of many cultures, peoples,
religions, ethnicities and languages- Just look at Modern Standard Hebrew. Words in English, Yiddish, Arabic, German, Polish, Russian, Romanian and
Ancient Hebrew are used throughout the Language.
What he (I think) was pointing out (perhaps a little emotionally) is that a Colonial State built not on a specific people but some sort of fabricated
identity (just like the U.S.- and don't forget- Zionism was not a Jewish movement- it was a secular colonial movement supported by very rich diamond
traders and British lords) does not have a concrete, specific set of cultural institutions that can be justifiably called "thiers." For instance:
Israeli Music is either Pop (Kylie Minogue meets Ofra Haza), Klezmer, Arabic, Persian, Iraqi, Ethiopian, Reggae (very popular these days out there),
etc. There never has and never will be an "Israeli" music such as Arabic or Persian or Native American for that matter- it is a 60 year old Colonial
settler state on Palestinian land- Not an ancient cultural heritage.
But also people tend to forget that Israeli music and Jewish music are two completely different things. One is rooted in traditions and an ancient,
beautiful cultural and religious history (which I will not define- that is up to our Jewish Brothers and Sisters here- That is for for their ownership
only) and the other is based on a capitalist industry that mirrors what we have in the U.S.- much like the state itself.
I dont think the debate was intended to be any deeper than this- that was all. John, al-Halabi and everyone else- We do have a great thing here- but
some things will never be avoidable. Zionists believe that Palestine is Israel and We Know that our land has been usurped and stolen. That probably
won't change for a while so in an effort to close this one peacefully- lets just call this one quits, but please John- dont get all "doomsday" on us
everytime a Palestinian gets sensitive, the Forum will NOT dissipate dude- and kkeys- be careful to not generalize a people- attack zionism not the
Jews- for the Latter are and will always be our closest relatives on this planet. aight?
Peace-
tarik
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Lintfree
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This is what I think, for what it is worth. We sometimes forget that the music of the instrument that is the center of this forum
has no political identity. The instrument itself is wood and metal and plastic. It comes from individuals just as the music comes from individuals.
Tones and pitches have no allegiance, no tribe and no political preference. We borrow them from a world of mathematics and physics and add creative
energy. Maqams, scales, no matter where they are from came originally from the mathematical world and some would say that they came there from God,
that they are a gift from The Creator to us. We just organize and name things so we can deal with them, communicate. This sounds simplistic but I
think it is true.
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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Al Halabi was right about the fact that "more heat than light" was produced, and I believe it is no more the case, so in an effort to produce some
"light", just a general thought:
I believe that cultural ownership does not (and should not) exist on civilizations level, a cultural, ethnic or ideological group cannot claim
intellectual property rights as an individual can.
Cultural "stealing" is a blessing as it makes both cultures richer, the Roman Empire culture was nothing but a cultural hub of all the its nations, it
ended up transformed by the local culture of one of its smallest occupied territories (christianity). Arabs were a colonial force in Spain and were
also the trigger and vector to Europe cultural renewal. I am not defending colonialism or occupation in any way, all I am saying is that a military
victory could also lead to a cultural "defeat", and this kind of "defeat" makes two winners.
Mahmoud Darwish (great palestinian poet) has very interesting views on this subject.
Music could be the seed for a laic multicultural, multiethnical society (this is what I wish for my country and all countries).
we can start by being opposed to musical apartheid.
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al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 364
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Tarik,
Since you addressed your comments to me I will respond briefly. If this is what you think kkeys meant to say I can’t see how it improves on anything
else he has said so far on this thread. Okay, the Zionists stole Palestine, Israel is a colonial state, Israel does not and will not have an authentic
culture, Jews have appropriated the music of others and called it their own, etc. etc. So now what? In what way does denigrating or dismissing other
cultures help understand anything? How does spouting angry opinions that lack factual basis or intellectual reflection advance any discussion on this
forum? I commented a couple of times on some problematic statements, sticking to issues of music and giving particulars that I was hoping would help
move the discussion away from the empty generalities being thrown about. There has been no specific response or challenge to any of the
counter-arguments, only more of the same polemical pronouncements. I give up.
For you, as you point out, the main underlying issue here is the usurping of Palestine by the Zionists. Now that the point has been made you suggest
closing the discussion, while making comments about our great forum, goodwill, and your fraternity with Jews. How ironic. You have to wonder what was
gained from having an open exchange about music and culture aborted in this way.
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David Parfitt
Oud Junkie
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Location: Devon, UK
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Al-Halabi,
I've really enjoyed reading your contributions to this thread, and I'm sure a lot of other forum members have too. I hope you are not deflected from
sharing your vast knowledge of Middle Eastern music with us because of the ignorant and immature comments of a small minority on here.
Best wishes
David
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al-Halabi
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David,
Thanks, I appreciate it. Unfortunately, it doesn't take much to mess up a discussion and turn one off.
Maybe you can bring in Mr. T.
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Arto
Oud Junkie
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Location: Finland
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I have enjoyed this thread a lot - not because of (unfortunately maybe unavoidable) tensions at times, but because of being able to read thoughts
about music and culture in general from wise people. If these wise people have disagreements between themselves - great, it is always
thought-provoking to read about these, as long as the ideas are competing and not their exponents.
I have learned a lot of this thread. I don´t know too much about Andalusian music and about its differences compared to Eastern music (like
microintervals). I do not know too much about Jews and their part in this large canvas of Mediterranean/Middle Eastern music that we all love. And I
haven´t known positively anything at all about the beautiful Maronite Christian chants before this thread.
Collectively, this oud forum with all its members is a really vast source of knowledge. Thanks for you all. And please continue.
Arto
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David Parfitt
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| Quote: | Originally posted by al-Halabi
David,
Thanks, I appreciate it. Unfortunately, it doesn't take much to mess up a discussion and turn one off.
Maybe you can bring in Mr. T. |
Funny you should mention that, as I know the big guy has been taking a keen interest in this discussion:
"Listen up, fools! I'm gettin real tired of all yo politics jibber-jabber. Don't make me mad! You don't wanna see the T mad!"
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SamirCanada
Moderator
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I also would like to extend my gratitude to you al Halabi.
I really apreciate the extensive wealth of knowlege you have to share and hopefully your not completly discouraged to participate. I tried to bring
the conversation on another tegeant hoping that maybe including other people of the middle east it would open the discution so that it becomes a topic
for all musics of the middle eastern people. When it is only centred on the conflict of the holly land well people get sucked in emotionaly.
KKeys Tarik John
I think its enough. We should keep an open mind when discussing because thats the reason for dialogue in the first place. The other option is a gun
and well off course if your here and discussing with eachother then you obviously didnt chose that way to go about it.
But for now I think Tarik has a right idea to lay off the conflict in the holy land in the toppics. And carry the discution in private if you wish.
Iam not saying this with authority because I have none of course but it would be bothering to many Iam sure if this kept going.
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John Erlich
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1470
Registered: 8-26-2004
Location: California, USA
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"Please John- don't get all "doomsday" on us everytime a Palestinian gets sensitive, the Forum will NOT dissipate dude."
Tarik,
It's not about Palestinians being sensitive, it's about Forum members being openly nasty, picking fights, and/or making bigoted comments. Maybe it is
a bit "doomsday" to talk about this Forum "dissipating," but, from my perspective, if discussions like this scare away good contributors, and it gets
so nasty that I can't stand participating myself, for me it might as well have dissipated.
I know plenty of people (Berbers, a Laz from Turkey, etc.) who make the same agruments as Kkeys, but about Arabic culture--that it's nothing more than
an "amalgamam" of cultural data "stolen" from others and not a real culture. I have argued with these people and have alienated many of them by
similarly trying to point out the prejudices that are getting in the way of their understanding culture and its development.
If an Algerian Amazigh (Berber) tells me that, "The only real Arabs are two tribes in northern Yemen" (I'm not making this up), would you prefer me to
defend your Arab identity or let it go without commenting, chalking it up to Berbers "getting sensitive"?
"Just look at Modern Standard Hebrew. Words in English, Yiddish, Arabic, German, Polish, Russian, Romanian and Ancient Hebrew are used throughout the
Language. " Tarik: Have you ever studied the philology of any language?
Peace,
Udi John
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excentrik
Oud Junkie
Posts: 291
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Location: Refugee Status...
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OK- Al-Halabi misunderstood me. But I still respect your position.
John, yes. I study language. Have YOU? (Ben Yehuda ring a bell?)
Samir, Thank you for hearing my intentions.
Everyone else, sorry about all this- it wasn't meant to be so "controversial" but you know how it goes.
"and it gets so nasty that I can't stand participating myself, for me it might as well have dissipated."
-John Erlich
So sorry John  , it must suck for you when the "noble savage" begins to assert his
identity as an indigenous human being.
tarik
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will_oud
Oud Maniac
Posts: 75
Registered: 6-4-2006
Location: San Antonio Texas USA
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Okay... I don't like to take sides here, but enough already!
William F. Sparks
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
Posts: 747
Registered: 12-9-2005
Location: Nîmes France
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It is not bothering a discussion on identity.
Identity is a big box which we continuously fill and empty with anything we want. Identity is evolutive in time. And identity becomes dangerous when
it is dictated by public authorities)
There should be no fear to listen people exposing their identity views.
I have learned a lot reading all contibutions here. Thanks to all.
The thing is that it can become neverending.
One thing which we all should aim at is to contribute at our humble level to finish the unjustice as no justice no peace. Think about that, justice
and human rights......and olive oil....to smooth the angles..
Anyhow may be someone could close this thread commenting on this cd.
(I did not give up...A la tercera va la vencida)
http://www.kalan.com/english/scripts/album/dispalbum.asp?id=3870
I loved the oud taqsims we can listen at almost all the begginings of the samples, turkish style taqsims fm he 1920th which seemed to me very arabic
style in fact. (Here the words turkish and arabic are just to situate us and make it understandable, otherwise there is no nationalistic sense).
I felt vertige listening in 2007 sounds of oud which in fact were being played hundred years before, and which sounded very modern to me at the same
time.
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al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
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Zalzal,
I agree, these are nice introductory taksims performed with an expressive, unpretentious style. I have somewhere the name of the oud player, from
older recordings I have of Algazi’s songs. Algazi is an example of the more open boundaries of music a century ago. He was a cantor in the synagogue
but also performed non-religious songs. On this recording he sings Turkish classical and semi-classical songs in Turkish, Jewish religious hymns in
Hebrew, and Sephardi songs in Judeo-Spanish. This phenomenon was common also in the Muslim sphere at the time, when religious shaykhs performed both
religious songs and non-religious qasidas and mawwals (some examples on the CD Archives de la musique arabe I). Sabri Moudallal in Aleppo is a
contemporary example of this easy movement between religious and secular - he is a muezzin but also sings non-religious folk and classical songs (his
CD Chants sacrés et profanes de Syrie includes a wasla of secular music and a wasla of religious hymns). People trained in chanting the Qur’an and
singing religious hymns acquired good professional skills in maqam improvisation, diction, meter, and prosody, so they were well positioned to excel
in performing non-religious music as well. Umm Kulthum acquired her early musical training in the mosque setting and it served her well throughout her
career. The climate of our time may not be as favorable for this type of fluid movement between the religious and the “profane” as it once was.
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