John Erlich
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New Strings & Intonation Problems - HELP!
Hi Folks,
I need some help.
After 7 years, I am finally getting around to replacing the original strings on my Shehata oud. I ordered 2 sets of Pyramid strings through NileShop
(a little mix up with my order, but another 2 weeks later I finally have the full string sets).
Last night, I took off the old 1st strings (high C) and put on the new Pyramid strings. To my great horror, the two strings went way out of tune with
each other as I fingered up the neck. There had never been an intonation problem on the 1st strings.
What is the cause of this?
The instrument has always had a very slight intonation problem with the 3rd strings (D), but I just assumed that maybe the strings were not exactly
the same size--there were never any problems with the other strings. (I assumed that this problem would go away when I replaced the strings.)
Is this generally caused by strings not being the same size? Problems with the nut maybe? Problems with how the strings are attached to the bridge?
If there were no previous problems with the 1st strings, it wouldn't be a matter of the fingerboard being uneven.
I thought I did a pretty good job attaching the strings to the bridge, using the exact same wrap pattern...
HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks,
Udi John
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SamirCanada
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how did you last 7 years with the same strings?
I think I need to change the strings every 6 months.
Anyways... how long have you had the strings on now?
it does take a few days for the nylon to stretch and settle in the tuning
Also make sure the loops where the strings lie are the same for each string.
If after 3 weeks you still notice the problems in tuning there might be a problem with the string set. Sometimes just inverting them ( putting the end
that was in the peg at the brige) fixes things.
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Jameel
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Are those real German Pyramid strings, or the Egyptian "3 Pyramids"?
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John Erlich
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Wirklich (genuine) Deutsche Pyramider seiten, if I'm not betrogen (deceived).
Thanks,
John
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John Erlich
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Hi Samir,
Thanks for your thoughts.
The original strings have sounded great (except for the little intonation problem on the 3rd "D" course) and Arabic strings are much harder come by
than Turkish ones in the San Francisco Bay Area.
Two years ago, I started to change the strings, just because I thought it was "time." I bought the super expensive Thomastik Infeld set and installed
the 1st "C" strings. The tension was excessive, the strings started to shred (though they finally settled and didn't break) and didn't sound as good
as the old ones. I was so disappointed that I never even tried installing the rest of that Thomastik Infeld set.
However, on one of the 4th "A" strings, the metal "winding" has started to come off in the last month, so now I really need to restring the
instrument.
I would go crazy if I had to restring my oud every six months!
Thanks,
John
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paulO
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Hi John,
1. Samir's hit all the good points.
2. In my experience, the worst pair of strings as far as intonation and tuning together is the 1st string. In the late 70's I got a Kyvelos oud that
I'd waited a year for...I couldn't wait to play it -- out of the case it comes, I tune it up and the 1st string (d in this case) sounds horrible --
like there's a brace loose in the oud, just awful. I freak out, and can find nothing visually wrong with the strings, but hell -- before I call Pete
and go nuts I decide to change the strings. That fixed the problem !
Over the years I've had problems on and off with the top pair. You might try "turning around" one of the strings in the pair, sometimes this can help.
Also, as Samir points out -- wait awhile, things may equalize out. Pryamid has pretty decent quality control. Good luck dude. And it does take awhile
(2-3 weeks) for the strings to settle in. Good luck John.
Regards...Paul
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John Erlich
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Parev Paul,
I guess I'll probably have to do the May 10 lecture/demo on my Turkish Eken ud. (Of all types of Arabic music to play on a Turkish oud, I think North
African sounds the least good. :shrug
Thanks,
Udi John
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John Erlich
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I meant 
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paulO
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Hey John...did you try turning around one of the pair ?? This might help..might not, but it's worth a try.
Regards..Paul
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Matthias
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Pyramid strings
Hello John,
I suppose you uses the 650 ... series from Pyramid, not the lute strings. The 650 series are the chaeper kind of oud strings from Pyramid and I know
directly from Pyramid that there are existing fakes of their strings. But even if they are not a fake these strings are plain nylon strings, which are
definitively not of constant thickness over the whole length. That gives the tone difference and that may be avoided by turning one string over as
some guys proposed.
But if you have a good instrument, I would recommend to use good strings, the best strings. These are the lute strings from Pyramid which are
rectified. I have a lot of professional clients who uses exclusively this kind of stings. A further advantage of these lute strings are the great
variety of diameters. Therefore it is possible to create a really individual set fitting to your tuning and your instrument and the tension you wish
to have. On my website you will find a PDF file listing a lot of individual sets. Probably you will find there one that fits for your instrument, if
not it's no problem to compose one.
Best regards Matthias
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John Erlich
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Hi Paul and Samir,
I tried turning one of the strings around, and the problem seems a little less bad, but the instrument is still not really playable.
Guess I'll just have to wait and see if things change.
I seem to waste a lot of money trying to find decent Arabic ouds strings...
Thanks,
John
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palestine48
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I apologize to hear about your troubles john.
just thought Id throw a few comments.
If you come to the city(SF) much you can get some arabic strings from pea<b>rooster</b> music on 14th and noe. the guy is familiar with
ouds so he has some opinions. his name is george. I just bought some d addarros. If you need la bellas I go to 26th and mission to this arabic
bazar, Samirami's.
now on a different note, my oud teacher buys strings in bulk for 3 bucks a pack. when i mentioned 50 dollar oud strings exist he kinda looked at me
all crazy. hes not an old guy either to be stubborn about whats odl and whats new. so my point is maybe we are putting too much attention on the
non essantial things or possibly analyzing a little too hard instead of just playing.
thats it for me
GO WARRIORS!!!!
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paulO
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Oh Man -- check with Larry White at that Thin Man String Company in Alameda -- Larry sells guaged D'darrio and LaBella strings..no need to buy a whole
set. You could bring your oud down and check out your existing guages etc...sorry I forgot about this local resource as well.
Regards..Paul
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John Erlich
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Ahalan Rami & Parev Paul,
I've bought the LaBellas at Samirami's before, but I think the standard off-the-shelf oud strings in stores in the U.S. are ususally the lighter
"Turkish"-gauged ones. Has this not been your experience?
I'll try your suggestion, Paul.
Thanks,
John
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paulO
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Hi John,
Yep -- the standard sets sold in most places are the OU-80 sets guaged for ouds with the turkish string length and (EABEAD) tuning.
Cheers,
Paul
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damascene_oud
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Hi John,
I would suggest checking your Oud's neck by a professional if you have any around.
The same thing happened with my friend, when he replaced the used set of strings with an original Pyramid strings, and we couldn't for more than 2
weekd tune in properly.
At the end a professional dignsed the problem as a slight inclination the oud's neck. He fixed the problem by removing it and re-align it again in
place. It took some time, but the result was rewarding indeed.
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John Erlich
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Hi Damascene_oud,
I guess it's possible that there are neck problems, but the 1st string course didn't have this problem before I replaced the strings, and it didn't
happen previously when I intalled the (expen$ive) Thoma$tic Infeld (di$aster) strings.
But, who knows?
Thanks,
John
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damascene_oud
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Hi John,
You said that u hv been using yr old strings for 6 years, i guess they became used to any problem that might be there in the neck that's why you
didn't notice anything unusual, but once replaced with a new set (unstretched yet) and they start to apply some tension on the neck, adn with constant
tuning this could have caused to trigger the problem.
This is not my diagnosis of course, that's what the repair man told me when we fixed my friend's oud.
You may want to try another set of strings of good quality. If the problem is still there then u need to visit someone who can have the neck
chacked.
Ibrahim Sukkar in Aleppo-Syria had created a real pracical solution to this problem, by inventing the adjustable neck, which can be controlled by
means of adjusting gauge from inside the oud, and the point where the neck meets the bowl. You may want to contact him and get his advice about this
problem:
music@oudsukar.com
engsukar@scs-net.org
He's a very kind young gentleman and a very high professional acquiring very brilliant reputation among best oud makers in the world.
Cheers,
Izzat
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jdowning
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I have used Pyramid lute strings for years (on lutes) without problem - they are good quality and consistent and long lasting. When a string has
become worn through long use it will tend to go 'false' and should then be changed. For trebles I prefer the Pyramid flurocarbon strings that are
thinner than plain nylon at equivalent pitch so give a brighter sound - but it is all a matter of personal preference.
One interesting comment in this thread is the recommendation to turn a string around to correct any intonation faults. This action shouldn't make much
difference with modern nylon strings but it might if gut strings are being used (do any oud players use 'authentic' gut strings these days?).
This may just be of historical interest but an early reference to turning gut strings around to correct poor intonation appears in the so called
"Vincenzo Capirola Lute Book' a manuscript in the Newberry Library, Chicago (Acq. No. 107501). The Italian manuscript is thought to date from about
1520. Among the tips about stringing a lute given by the author is this "And if for some reason the mezzane or sottane (treble strings) do not stay
in tune and they are otherwise uniform, change the string from head to foot and perhaps it will stay in tune ........ because very often one cannot
see, with thin strings, which end of the string is thicker than the other and, therefore, which end should be tied to the bridge which, for this
reason, it will not stay in tune"
Gut strings of the period were rarely exactly cylindrical along their length so the more uniform part of the string was the end that was tied to the
bridge. The author of the manuscript then goes on to say " .... also know that if in tying the string you leave a small piece of false string at the
bridge, the string will not stay in tune and it will make the whole string false ....... and also know that a false string next to a true string will
never stay in tune but will make both strings false instead of only one".
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John Erlich
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Hi Folks,
I just wanted to give an update and share my experiences.
I tried turning around the Pyramid strings (top - C course) and using different combinations of the strings included in the two sets I bought from
NileShop. The intonation problems up the neck got better or worse, but did not go away. I gave up on the Pyramid strings.
Yesterday, I finally got around to installing a set of La Bella "Special" strings. These are the ones supposedly sized for Arabic ouds.
Here are my observations:
1) No intonation problems up the neck now whatsoever ("new" problem on 1st course and "old" problem on 3rd course both gone)! 
2) The 1st course on the "Special" set is actually THINNER than the first course of strings sized for Turkish ouds. I think that fact has been
discussed in these Forums before. I "stole" the 1st course from one of my "Turkish" La Bella sets and used that instead. I think the course is still
sized a bit thin and the sound is correspondingly thin.
3) WTF!!! I've owned Turkish/Armenian (Najarian & Eken) uds since 1996
and an Arabic (Egyptian - Shehata) oud since 2000. I just noticed (duh!) that on Turkish ouds, the 3rd course is generally wound, and on Arabic ouds,
unwound nylon. This fact alone seems to account for a good portion of the difference in sound. The La Bella Special set has a WOUND 3rd course. It
sounds different and a little weird to my ears, but I'm happy to have some sustain back and my intonation problems solved.
So, the new La Bella strings are not ideal, but they are already mostly holding tune and should be good enough for performances and recording until I
can find the "perfect" Arabic oud strings. )
Peace,
Udi John
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eliot
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John,
If you can find a source for individual 3rds, do. Those LaBella specials sound ok when the 3rds are in good shape, but I've found that within a month
(at the most, a month and a half) they tend to unwind themselves and become totally unplayable. So you might find yourself needing to change wound 3rd
pretty frequently (I did).
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John Erlich
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Merhaba Eliot,
Thanks for the tip! I'll keep my eyes (and ears) open...
Thanks,
John
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