Ararat66
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Top finish on Turkish ouds
What's the general opinion on Turkish ouds with their soundboards varnished and how does this affect the sound. I've heard it said that the purist
view is that Turkish style ouds should have unvarnished tops but there seems to be a few around that are - I think Dimitris is one.
Cheers
Leon
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Lintfree
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Maybe one of Dimitris ouds or a few but the Dimitris I have has no finish on the top. I have a Mustafa Copcuoclu that has a finish on the top. Some
people say that it's not original some say it is. Whatever the case it has an amazing sound, bright and with lots of sustain. According to an expert
in these finishes it is a very hard resin finish, catalyzed two part varnish. It has been sanded with super fine sandpaper and is a matte finish (no
gloss). With guitars the high end sound comes off the surface of the top and if the surface is perfectly smooth and hard then there should lots of
treble, all other things considered. This oud has lots of treble. Sometimes a finish can dampen the sound or restrict the top from vibrating or make
the instrument sound darker. With this oud it is not the case. I have noticed that during damp periods when it is raining the sound of the Copcuoclu
does not change very much at all while with the other ouds with unfinished tops sound as they should sound when the weather is damp. Most all of the
Turkish ouds I have seen do not have finished tops but I've only seen about 350. I hope this helps. D.L.
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Ararat66
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Thanks - the point you make about damp weather (I live in the UK!! nuf said) is interesting.
Cheers
Leon
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Ararat66
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cedar tops
Ok so how do cedar tops change the sound on turkish ouds - I love cedar on guitars but they are a different ketle of fish.
cheers
Leon
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jdowning
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Interesting why an exterior finish on a top should make much of a difference in humid conditions because, of course, the inside face of a top is
always unvarnished so is not resistant to moisture absorption when humidity is high.
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Lintfree
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I wondered that too, but that's what happens with the unfinished ouds and the finished one. (And the finish is not a traditional varnish but some kind
of synthetic resin finish.) The oud with the top finished changes VERY slightly but nowhere near to the degree the unfinished ones do. The unfinished
ones change within hours of the start of rain. It could be the type of spruce; maybe the unfinished oud top is harder. It appears to be Black Sea or
Oriental spruce as opposed to European spruce and that could make a difference. Who knows. When it rains, the Copcouclu sounds the same as when it
doesn't rain while the others change.
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Ararat66
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Hello
I've wondered about this. I have a Haluk oud about 18 months old and it is untreated on the face but seems to cope well with the different weather
here. The top is from spruce that grows on the Black sea coast. I went thee many years ago and it can be very humid, the mist rolls off the sea and
up the mountains - they even grow tea there!!
When I met with Adel Salameh after a gig he did here a while back he said that once on a New Zealand tour, all his ouds 'died' because of the
humidity.
I would imagine a finish would have to be very hin and very hard so as not to dampen the sound and take the edge off it.
Best regards
Leon
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spyros mesogeia
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Personally I prefer all the ouds that I play to be with the soundboard unvarnished.
I get used with this type of sound and feeling
Regards to all
Spyros
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jdowning
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I wonder also if the type of glue used in the construction of an oud may be a factor - that is an oud made with the traditional hide glue may be more
sensitive to humidity changes than one made from a synthetic 'waterproof' glue? My lutes seem to lose resonance temporarily during periods of high
heat and humidity when there can be a distinct smell of warm hide glue coming from the interior of the instruments. As the lutes do not fall apart in
these conditions, I figured that this might be a good thing in some ways theorising that the softening glue joints might allow an instrument to
'stress relieve' resulting in improved sound in the longer term as the instrument ages - but that is just a theory.
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Ararat66
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Sounds like lute yoga
Om shanti
Leon
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jdowning
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I should mention that I coat the soundboards of all the instruments that I make with a very dilute shellack - just to seal the surface to keep it free
from dirt over time.
A soundboard that seems to be unvarnished may, in fact, be sealed with an otherwise invisible coating. Egg white mixed with turpentine is one such
traditional sealer. Only the luthier can confirm if the soundboards of his instruments are truly uncoated.
The soundboard of the old Egyptian oud that I am currently restoring seems to be uncoated but as there are no localised dirt stains in evidence that
one would otherwise expect on such an old and well used instrument due to handing over time, this suggests that the soundboard has been sealed in some
way.
The same applies to surviving lutes of the 16th and 17th C. Their soundboards appear to be unvarnished yet the patina of the surfaces is uniform with
no localised dirt staining - suggesting that the surfaces have been sealed in some way.
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Lintfree
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There are definitely some things that oud makers, violin makers, guitar makers don't talk about, building techniques, secret finishes. I figure that
whatever makes it sound good to the maker and gives the instrument the longest life possible is what's best; finish, no finish, European spruce,
Canadian yellow cedar, Brazillian rosewood. It's up to the maker.
Hermann Walleki the violin maker was once asked for the 40th time by the same person the secret of his varnish and he, at last responded in a hushed
voice, leaning over the counter, "Gorgonzola oil." The questioner walked away smiling as if he now knew the secret never once suspecting that there
is no such thing as Gorgonzola oil.
You listen to a Rapakousios oud, play it and it sounds fabulous..................because of 7000 separate inter-related reasons. One of them just may
be Gorgonzola oil.
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ALAMI
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After 2 weeks of an incredible heat and humidity wave, my ouds are speachless, the Matta with unfinished face developed 4 frightening cracks near the
fingerboard and one crack on the ebony fingerboard, the others are really sick, the tuning wouldn't hold for 2 hours. Keeping them in the hard cases
in a dark room with the A/C on 24 hours doesn't seem to help.
The only oud that doesn't seem to care about the weather and still sounds wonderful is the 1892 Al Arja, the face is unfinished but covered with dirt
stains and all kind of stains, the 115 year old guy seems to have more health than the young ones. I don't know may be Jdowning theory is right.
I tend to believe that after a century the wood forgets it was once a tree, the wood is now convinced that he was alays a oud.
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Ronny Andersson
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It was the high humidity in Beirut and the hide glue that caused problems for Munir Bashir during his Lebanon period, The bridges came loose and to
prevent this and to withstand the high string tension Mohammed Fadel used the classical Neapolitan mandolin for his oud project!
I don't need to tell more...
Best wishes
Ronny
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eliot
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Lintfree
There are definitely some things that oud makers, violin makers, guitar makers don't talk about, building techniques, secret finishes. I figure that
whatever makes it sound good to the maker and gives the instrument the longest life possible is what's best; finish, no finish, European spruce,
Canadian yellow cedar, Brazillian rosewood. It's up to the maker.
Hermann Walleki the violin maker was once asked for the 40th time by the same person the secret of his varnish and he, at last responded in a hushed
voice, leaning over the counter, "Gorgonzola oil." The questioner walked away smiling as if he now knew the secret never once suspecting that there
is no such thing as Gorgonzola oil.
You listen to a Rapakousios oud, play it and it sounds fabulous..................because of 7000 separate inter-related reasons. One of them just may
be Gorgonzola oil. |
Or Trakya eski kaşar yağı. Much better for Turkish instruments. But don't tell anyone I told you...
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jdowning
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This is getting a bit off topic but for those interested in early violin construction, the late David Rubio shows how he prepared the surfaces of his
violins prior to varnishing at
http://www.rubioviolins.com
Interesting that this carefully researched treatment dating to the 17th C seems to seal and harden the surfaces of the wood preventing penetration of
the varnish which forms a skin over the surface of the instrument.
As for varnishes- no mystery or luthier mythology there - just good quality stuff commercially manufactured and available to everybody - as it likely
was in the 17th C.
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