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eliot
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The other broader question, one that has surfaced only occasionally on this and other boards, is the extent to which "Arab maqam", "Turkish makam,"
"Persian mugham" (there was such a system before the radif/dastgah system was established) and/or other neighboring modal systems are actually similar
or different (both historically and in the present). Yes, there is a Rast in Turkey; yes there is a Rast in Egypt; yes there is a Rast in Iraq, and
yes all of them would appear to share a similar scalar structure.
But are they really the same? Sayyed Darwish's Rast compositions sound very different than Turkish şarkı which sound very different than...
you get the idea. How much of this is a result of different composers, and how much can be attributed to what makam Rast/ maqam Rast actually
represent or signify?
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katakofka
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| Quote: | Originally posted by eliot
although I apologize if it came across as one. |
No need for an apology we're just discussing. My understanding for compound
makams is those are "composed" makams in opposite to simple ones (3 to 4 notes maximum able to give you the needed mood). Reason why I misunderstood
you.
Best
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katakofka
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Takasims for Riad
http://www.sawari.com/torath/torath/114/eyd/2/azf/sunbati-3ood_5.ra...
http://www.sawari.com/torath/torath/114/eyd/2/azf/sunbati-3ood_1.ra...
http://www.sawari.com/torath/torath/114/eyd/2/azf/sunbati-3ood_2.ra...
http://www.sawari.com/torath/torath/114/eyd/2/azf/sunbati-3ood_3.ra...
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Edward Powell
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I love Monty !!! But DONT CALL ME "EDDY-BABY"!)
(joking!)
wow, I stummble upon the KING himself! That guy is the ESSENSE!
Elliot, what you writing is very interesting and helpful! Can you expand a bit more on this sentense:
"These kinds of named makam entities are themselves only a comparatively recent creation in Turkey. They specify a fixed motion between different
qarar pitches."
You mean that the compound makam is in fact more of a combination of makams and a very specific and pre-composed way to travel thru the makam?
Would not a better term be "composed compound makam"?
From my notes I have written that compound makam can mean several things - or, there are several types of compound makam;
-one type is Dilkesaveran or Bestenigar -- in which you play a certain makam but FINISH on a different one. For example by making huseini or saba and
then finishing on iraq. - i have this described as a "mixed makam"
-now... in the above type the IRAQ KARAR will cancel out the karar of the original makam.
But with makams like bayati-buselik or hisar-buselik would there be a DOUBLE KARAR? ...a karar from bayati or hisar, then FOLLOWED by another karar
from buselik?
-what I have written down as the TRUE COMPOUND MAKAM is when both makams co-exist 50/50. --like kurdili hicazkar or bayati-araban.
-or there is another type of kind of ROADMAP complex makam... with very complicated SEYIR going thru many makams in it's course -
Is Sevkefza one of these? I have it written as:
-hicaz from gerdaniya
-to nikriz on acem
-to hicazkar on cargah
-karar nikriz on acemasiran
---mayan in saba on dugah
- - -
furthermore, the list I previously wrote BASTANIKAR, KARJIGHAR, SIKAH, NAIRUZ, MUSTAAR, or SUZIDIL MAQAM.... are all from my books on ARAB MAQAMAT
and the ARAB MAQAM website http://www.maqamworld.com
...so obviously to one degree or another all these maqams are part of the most common arab maqamat.
THANKS!
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by eliot
The other broader question, one that has surfaced only occasionally on this and other boards, is the extent to which "Arab maqam", "Turkish makam,"
"Persian mugham" (there was such a system before the radif/dastgah system was established) and/or other neighboring modal systems are actually similar
or different (both historically and in the present). Yes, there is a Rast in Turkey; yes there is a Rast in Egypt; yes there is a Rast in Iraq, and
yes all of them would appear to share a similar scalar structure.
But are they really the same? Sayyed Darwish's Rast compositions sound very different than Turkish şarkı which sound very different than...
you get the idea. How much of this is a result of different composers, and how much can be attributed to what makam Rast/ maqam Rast actually
represent or signify? |
Excellent point about RAST - and actually that is why I am down here in Egypt!... I wanted to check out first hand what these differences are.
Rast for example is clearly different in many ways. First of all the "segah" note have different intonation. Also Turkish Rast immediately touches on
Turkish Segah, Ussak, and Huseini makams.
The latter 3 makams don't even exist in that form in Arabic maqamat.
Arab Rast seems to immediately move to Suznak, Nahawand, Nawaathar, Sikah Baladi (which doesn't exist in Turkish music!)
So there you go!
And on top of that the way of decoration is totally difference as well...
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
simple ones (3 to 4 notes maximum able to give you the needed mood).
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...are you considering a 3 or 4 note tri/tetrachord to be a maqam?
of course yes... when you play RAST tetrachord it MUST be RAST! or HIJAZ tetrachord it MUST be hijaz.... etc.
but you are considering the tetrachord as a full maqam?
so does that mean that Hijaz Maqam is a compound maqam because you combine hijaz with rast (turkish)?
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katakofka
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Yep...My understanding for the makams is that it's related to the mood generated. IF 4 notes are able to give a specific mood they are called makam
precisely primitive makaams. Early middle eastern music was mostly based on those simple primitive makams. I am here influenced by an
ethnomusicologist, a priest name Father Elias Keserwaani. http://www.musimedialogy.org/Meso.html. He calls those Modes rather than makam. Check his CV, very interesting. http://www.musimedialogy.org/Elias.html
In this view, all current makams are composed makams
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Edward Powell
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These are truly great! ...really capture the essense of what Im after in this music!
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
Yep...My understanding for the makams is that it's related to the mood generated. IF 4 notes are able to give a specific mood they are called makam
precisely primitive makaams. Early middle eastern music was mostly based on those simple primitive makams. I am here influenced by an
ethnomusicologist, a priest name Father Elias Keserwaani. http://www.musimedialogy.org/Meso.html. He calls those Modes rather than makam. Check his CV, very interesting. http://www.musimedialogy.org/Elias.html
In this view, all current makams are composed makams |
I am really glad to hear that, and hear someone express it in this way because I totally agree.
In fact it fits in completely with what I am doing with my own music in the last couple two or three years.
Having studied the Raga system indepth I began to notice that in fact often-times Ragas can be broken down into tetra and penta chord - the ones that
capture a particular mood in and of themselves.
So in order to finally try to make some sense and actually put to use all of the studying I have done, it began to make sense to me to attempt to
merge these two systems. In fact what I have begun to do is to identify a multitude of Raga tetra/penta chords and use them in conjunction with
compatible makam tetrachords, and thereby compose new compound makams - or "cross-cultural makams"... I actually call them "ragmakams".
At first I was ashamed of myself for attempting it - but after allowing myself to get comfortable in this, I realised that, at least to my own ears,
it offers a whole spectrum of new melodic colours to either the raga or makam system - however you see it.
Now.... don't SHOOT ME please! ...but lately I have been having thoughts about taking this one step further. For example, I am NOT an Arab, Turk,
or an Indian... my roots are in Canada and with basically blues-based music.
So, I began to also notice that essential Blue music is also fundamentally based on tetra-chords. Very primative Blues riffs are just phrases of 4
notes or so. So actually, there is another potential storehouse of characteristic melodic tetrachords available.
Taking this even further I am starting to be convinced that the very essense of all the world's modal (or semi-modal) music is in fact the tetrachord.
Therefore it seems wholey possible to expand and develop the makam system to include characteristics from every musical culture the world has every
seen (or heard)... a true WORLD MAQAM SYSTEM.
.....my God, now that starts to sound like something Bush would say if he was a musician
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katakofka
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Makam Bush 
Why not? Universal makam sounds great. Hope it will end up successfully
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Edward Powell
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yes... maybe with the "corner-sewers" (like Bush)
...sorry)
now back to the degenerated maqam discussion
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katakofka
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honestly I am with that..Degenerated makams just to make things easier. What is the purpose of giving a new name for one makam having siga on B and
Bayaat on D? we know that this makam is composed of 2. Why giving it another name?
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Edward Powell
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Well, I am a very firm believer in "preservation is only possible thru evolution".
Of course there is a great paradox here.
but the maqam simply will not survive unless it begins to reflect the nature of our times.
What we live in now is the age of no borders - no limits - instant global communication - and universal synthesis... so why not preserve the old
thru the new... recycle the beauty of the old into totally unique new forms?
...also this way each musician can create his/her own makam, or even system. Someone from siberia might know some siberian tetrachords, someone who
has listened to a lot of thai music might add some thai tetrachords to the system. . . . and on and on.
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katakofka
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As I see it it's a preservation of the name rather than the music because the
moods are present it's just a matter of nomenclature. By the way, the Tarzanwiin makam that I mentioned before, it's a Kord on C and hijaaz on F (Do,
Do#, MIb, Fa, Fa#, la, Sib, Do)
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charlie oud
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Hey Edward,I welcome the Blues comparison. Take that Murrassah for example:
C D Eb F Gb A Bb C. Omit the D and you have a 4 note pure blues lick: C Eb F Gb up or down the notes. Even with the D its still quite bluesy. Now my
point is that we can modulate to this tonality within any maqam and it works. I have heard Egyptian players do this and it kind gives new life to the
Taqsim, kind of refers to the world beyond the Arabic without losing the true oud colours . C
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Edward Powell
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EXACTLY!!!!!!!
in fact, C Eb F Gb is precisely the very first Blues tetrachord I identified!!!
actually, yes, mamdouh does this a couple of times on the JT clips... wonderful.
I would like to experiment with actually forming new "makams" with these sort of 'new' tetrachords'. Rather than just limiting them to fleeting
modulations. BUT OF COURSE THIS IS A VERY VERY VERY TRICKY UNDERTAKING.... how it is done could either produce magic so powerful that it could lure a
whole new audience to makam music - or it very easily could be a complete disaster --- as well as all points btw these two extremes are possible - and
subject to opinion.
I occationally sneak a few blues riffs into an ALAP or TAKSIM when I reform. I usually only do that when I am already playing in exactly those notes,
and the only real difference is in accenting and phrasing --- usually like a very subtle kind of jest, just to see who is really listening.... and of
course return immediately straight back strong to the raga or makam home base.
But in future i would like to try this more "officially" and courageously - cuz after all this is the music of my roots. . . and if we do not honour
our roots, what are we??
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Oudini
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hey guys, im new to this forum and i wish i had 10 % of your guys knowledge of the maqams, i travel to egypt every chance i get (bcos im british born
egyptian in love with egypt) and im going back for a short holiday on the 15th feb, half term (im a teacher)
I love listening to the quran being recited especially with maqam and often meet up with Ahmed Mustafa (vocal coach and expert on maqams)
i will post some videos on my youtube page (ilovemydeen)
anyways, check out my playlist on maqams expressed vocally.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9CBB831104C9607A
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