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arsene
Oud Junkie
Posts: 366
Registered: 5-19-2007
Location: Rotterdam, NL
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Wow, a very interesting thread indeed... I'm by no means an expert in this, but I have been wondering many times about this.
I remember reading that Dimitirie Cantemir, of Moldavian origin, one of the composers and musicologists at the Ottoman court, wrote that there was
sort of a competition going on between the Persians (who were considered to be above all others and have the richest musical tradition) and the Turks.
The Turks borrowed heavily from Persian classical music, but, as Elliot pointed out, since most musicians and composers were in fact either Greek,
Armenian, Romanian, Italian, Polish, etc, "western" influences sneaked in as well. At one point the Turks had evolved so much that the then reigning
sultan invited a Persian convoy to come listen to his musicians - that it now rivalled the splendor of that of the Persians.
Interestingly he was quite condescending of Arab musical culture, saying that "Turks and Persians enjoy music the most", they live it and breathe it,
but "the Arabs do not enjoy music at all".
Furthermore, a lot of Turkish makams have persian names... (Rast, isfahan, zirefkend, pencgah, etc etc).
On the other hand, a similar system existed already in the Byzantine lands, like reminore said.
It's alive even today, also in the Romanian tradition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiAAE0TxX1U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJN9xZ3tnKA&feature=related
As far as I know, Byzantine music knows 8 makams (at least in Romanian orthodox tradition, called "eh" or "glas"). Four of them are the main, parent
makams and the other four are derivatives. Perhaps there used to be more? I don't know. They do not have names, but just numbers (either I to VIII or
I-IV and I plagal to IV plagal, depending on school). This tradition definitely existed before the Turks arrived and you can also hear the influence
it exerted on Turkish classical music (and ilahi).
So where did this originate? In my layman's opinion, Byzantine musical tradition is a result of Christianity's eastern roots: Jewish "tehilim"
tradition of chanting psalms and middle eastern singing (in the beginning, the Church was the strongest in the Levant...)
I suppose it's extremely difficult to find a definite historical answer to all this, as nationalism unfortunately often plays a big role in these
matters 
By the way Edward, I'm playing Turkish (or is it Byzantine  ) style, and I know
many others on this forum do
Very interesting topic though, I could talk about this for days. In the end I think everything blended a bit... it's very unclear what originated when
and where.. Too bad sometimes some people claim it exclusively for themselves!
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arsene
Oud Junkie
Posts: 366
Registered: 5-19-2007
Location: Rotterdam, NL
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I looked it up - this is the order in the Romanian byzantine tradition:
There are four authentic makams (also called "eh" (pl. ehuri) or "glas" (pl. glasuri):
Ehul I - dorian
Ehul II - lydian
Ehul III - frigian
Ehul IV - milesian or mixolidian
NB these are not the same modes as we know in modern western music, even though the names are the same...
Then from those "authentic" or sacred four, there are another four derivatives
Ehul I plagal (or glasul V) - hipodorian
Ehul II plagal (or glasul VI) - hipolidian
Ehul III plagal (or glasul VII) - hipofrigian
Ehul IV plagal (or glasul VIII) - hipomilesian or hipomixolidian
you can lsiten to short examples of every mode here: http://www.sinaxar.ro/grama/formule-glasuri.html (press "asculta" to listen)
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Jono Oud N.Z
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1119
Registered: 12-14-2009
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This is a very interesting subject!
I am researching Art Music from the Ottoman Empire.
Not just Istanbul but also the wider region.
I play Arabic oud, but close to Syrian style, which is pretty much in between Turkish and Egyptian.
Al Kindi Ensemble and Bezmara Ensemble are the two main groups that seem to be researching this subject and recording also at the moment.
There are many others also, but these two are particularly good.
Juliew Weiss, from Al Kindi, writes in the liner notes to 'Parfums Ottomans', that the term 'Arab' in Cantemir's day usually referred to Bedouin, and
not to urban peoples of Arab origin in the Empire; e.g. Cairo, Damascus, Aleppo and Baghdad.
There is a Bashraf by Sayf Al Masry that is an excellent example of an Egyptian Ottoman composition in Cantemir's day.
This is in the Owen Wright book and is featured on the Al Kindi 'Parfums' album also.
There are even pieces by Indian composers in there, this was completely new to me.
The Greek aspect of the Ottoman music should definitely not be overlooked either, the Greeks have always been very important in regards to music.
I see Ottoman art music as being very much a multicultural phenonomon
I also love the Kudsi Erguner album with the Byzantine choir.
Kudsi also does one that blends Persian and Turkish styles.
http://www.amazon.com/Music-Arabian-Nights-Musique-mille/dp/B0014JB...
I would also like to know more about the Byzantine tradition.
From what I have read so far, it seems that the Jerusalem Church chant largely imitated that of the Synagogue.
This music spread to Syria (Antioch in particular), and then to the Byzantines. (From 'A History of Western Music' by Donald Grout.)
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spartan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 207
Registered: 11-30-2007
Location: Athens , Greece
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As far as I know there is very few (or none) books , manuscripts etc talking about Greek.Armenian, Turk, Arab, Persian etc music before the 19th
century. If mentionned most of the times it's a matter of the origin of the musician.
After the 19th century and the national movements at the middle east there is a different aspect from musicologists. Researchers for each nation are
trying to emphasize on the nations music as something totally different or as the first nation who invented the modal (maqam) system. At the same time
they try to erase any proof of other influences.
Since we are not musicologists, and we are just passionate with this music it's not so important who is the first nation that invented the oud, or the
maqams etc.
About Byzantine music ...it's a ritual music. It's based on a modal system called Echos (in Greek this word means Sound) but it's not like maqam
system , it's more like the persian Dastgah system.
It's a vocal music, and has a unique notation not the european or other.
A nice link to find some recordings etc about
http://analogion.com/
When I hear this kind of ritual music I can see common things and influences with the Dervish Mevlana ritual music.
During centuries many important composers wrote Byzantine and Classical Ottoman music
Zaharya Hanende is a great example.
He wrote important Byzantine music but also great Samais and Sarkis.
(listen to Saba Samai or the beautiful Huseyni Agir Samai)
Zaharya Hanende was a Byzantine composer and at the same time the Sultan's personnal singer.
Two other important composers to listen is Manouil Lambadarios and Petros Peloponnisios
Petros Peloponnisios was a great composer of the 18th century. He wrote Byzantine hymns but also samais. There is a legend that he also sang at
Dervish rituals.
The legend or history says that when he died the Mevlevi Dervishes came to his funeral to play with neys and put a ney in his arms...
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Jono Oud N.Z
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1119
Registered: 12-14-2009
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I have a really good recording of some of Zaharya Hanende's pieces.
http://www.buyarabic.com/storeItem.asp?ic=MU9398677GN785
This is very good!
The books: 'Music of the Ottoman Court', and 'A History of Arabian Music to the 13th Century' deal with older music (pre' 19th cent').
I am also studying to be an Ethnomusicologist myself, and am very involved in extensive research into this maqam music.
I agree that the 19th century was a time of nationalism, and that this music is a shared tradition; no one ethnic group 'owns' it.
This is also very good. Isak Algazi was a top singer of Ottoman music and a Synagogue cantor, he would listen to the Mevlevi's and they would listen
to him, very much a mutual respect.
http://www.amazon.com/Algazi-Efendi-Rabbi-Isaac-Turkey/dp/B000VYBYY...
This website: http://analogion.com/
is very interesting, thanks.
I will look more into this music.
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