fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Time for a new forum?
Sazi, nothing wrong with some separate forums, but I really don't think temporarily marking intonation points on the neck/strings has anything to do
with guitar. If you play very well already, and don't like the idea of intonation aids for beginners, you don't have to read a post that clearly says
it's about temporary neck markers. I haven't seen anybody wanting to put frets on an oud. As to tunings, it's the traditional oud players who are
using many different tunings, I don't know if one more is going to break the camel's back, but OK, if maybe that's a bad idea, you might explain why
to the uninitiated. If people who are wondering about different tunings, different picks, or whether everyone plays Arabic music have to stick to a
special ghetto, it's not even going to give you a chance to teach them what you have (gradually) learned, or just straighten them out. But maybe
growing the oud's "presence" is not what you're interested in. Sorry to have offended you, or taken up too much space, I'll be out of your hair soon.
Immense and eternal thanks to all the fine people here who have helped me learn a great deal so quickly, and who have helped add one more lover of the
oud, one more listener to the great Maqam Music tradition, one more customer for instruments, CDs, luthiers, and one more Westerner who feels closer
to our Muslim brothers.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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Fernand, I don't think that you should quit posting to the forum over this, I for one have found your posts mostly interesting.
Even though I learned without marking finger positions, I found your ideas and methods for doing so very interesting and kind of ingenious. Lots of
violin, cello and (upright) bass players start with some kind of position markers. I don't see anything wrong with it and it has nothing to do with
guitar, as you noted.
I came from playing guitar as well, which is largely why I never felt that markers were necessary, since the scale is only slightly shorter, it was
fairly easy to adapt.
Sazi, I understand your frustration as well . . . even as a guitar player I sometimes have wondered "why do people get an oud if they don't want to
learn how to play it so it sounds like oud music?" But I figure people have their own interests and personality, and have to learn in their own way
sometimes.
I think a separate forum would be a disservice to everyone involved, because it would mean the guitarist-oudis would be less exposed to traditional
oud playing and maqam music and less likely to ultimately explore the tradition.
Maybe, though, a sub-forum for guitar/western music related topics (still oud related, of course)? Mike, Greg? what do you think?
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ibn sina
Oud Maniac
Posts: 75
Registered: 1-6-2009
Location: New York
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Mood: No Mood
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I just started playing 6 months ago, coming from no musical experience. My teacher actually marked C for a while, with a small piece of blue tape.
Actually it's only a sort-of marker, and you still have to find the exact note. I found it helpful for a time.
I did start to learn the oud, because I love the way the oud sounds. But many of us need all the help we can get! Better not to discourage beginners.
We all have to start at the beginning sometime.
Personally I hope there will be a major oud revolution in this country, and lots of people will take it up. It's so heartening to see people looking
for teachers all over.
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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
Posts: 454
Registered: 4-29-2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
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Mood: No Mood
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Hey Sazi, I think you're a bit out of line here mate... If somebody asks... Hey can I play an oud with a guitar pick... they're probably not trying
to change the music... but rather want to stick within thier comfort zone. The best response is not "a guitar is a guitar and an oud is an oud" But
rather an explination of how the risha works to make the sound and how a pick won't do the same thing...
Also, I think you need to realize that for many of us, picking up an oud involved a WHOLE lot more than just learning how to play a song or two... For
me, it's opened up an entirely different world and way of approaching music.... Everything is alien to me.... So, I put tape markers on my oud's
neck to help me get around intonation... so what? If I want to put frets on it... so what, I understand some teachers in the ME have tie on frets
for their students to get them into the idea of playing with the correct intonation right.... In truth, I would say that anything that allows us to
learn is good...
Chris Walters
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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Quote: Originally posted by Christian1095  | | If I want to put frets on it... so what, I understand some teachers in the ME have tie on frets for their students to get them into the idea of
playing with the correct intonation right.... In truth, I would say that anything that allows us to learn is good... |
Not to mention that the oud historically had frets, only losing them in the last few hundred years (one of the historians on the board surely can
provided a more precise timeframe)
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arsene
Oud Junkie
Posts: 366
Registered: 5-19-2007
Location: Rotterdam, NL
Member Is Offline
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I can see where you're coming from Sazi... but I for one think it's advantage that forums like these are open to such diverse subjects... i mean for
example there's a whole thread about the romanian cobza which kind of started to lead its own life... And have you read Alami's Golden mean - oud
thread yet???!
This is an awesome forum where the traditional and the modern (and sometimes the downright weird!) can come together and live in harmony 
brian, here's two interesting pics for you 
[file]10692[/file] [file]10694[/file]
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
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I agree with you guys!
Sazi, don't forget that guitar comes from the oud, after a couple hundred years of changing. So the sentence " guitar is a guitar" and " a oud is a
oud" sounds strange to me!
Keep on enjoying the playing everybody..
P.s. I still connat get over Alami's fabulous Golden oud!!! 
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Whew, I'm relieved.
I understand most people here learn to play traditional Arabic music on their oud, but if I said to someone "you should play piano music", it wouldn't
mean anything because there is no single piano music. If the oud starts gaining a LOT more popularity in the West, which is not impossible, it will
not likely be that everybody memorizes how Farid riffed on Bayati. Would it be a desacration?
BTW, I find each instrument has an optimum way, and I don't find tuning an oud like a guitar helpful at all, if nothing else because the neck is too
narrow to feel familiar in fingering guitar positions anyway. And the timbre just begs for phrasing that sounds "maqamish".
Blues is a sort of maqam, maybe the closest we have in Western music to a full-blown maqam. It probably has North African roots.
I can get interesting transitions with my nails & fingers, but personally I always keep the reesha in my hand because I need it to get the
"strong" timbre, which requires a longer rubbing stroke on the two strings. A small pick doesn't do that at all, so I would urge guitar pick users to
give a proper reesha a good try. I think there's ideally a sort of "micro-bowing" going on, and I'm looking to feather and horn reesha to provide more
"scrape" than plastic.
I AM looking for a teacher of traditional oud playing that I can afford.
On the other hand I'm in the process of removing the frets above the 12th on an electric guitar. Since I play comfortably high up on the neck, that
will provide an area where I can play in microtones and slides, and still use the fretted part when I want to. That doesn't make it a half-oud.
It works both ways, frets come and frets go, as do neck markers. It has nothing to do with "guitar" per se. Look at this fresco from around 1450 in a
catholic cathedral in Valencia. It looks most like a 6 course oud, with 3 double and 3 single courses. The neck is unfretted, and the angel plays with
a feather reesha:
[file]10700[/file] [file]10704[/file]
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arsene
Oud Junkie
Posts: 366
Registered: 5-19-2007
Location: Rotterdam, NL
Member Is Offline
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fernand, i'm guessing you've seen the real life version of that oud as well then?
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Ah, yes, gorgeous, but check the stringing! The angel might be confused, or maybe he just broke a string, but it looks like the two bass courses and
the top are in single strings. It's amazing how detailed that painting is.
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arsene
Oud Junkie
Posts: 366
Registered: 5-19-2007
Location: Rotterdam, NL
Member Is Offline
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I'd say it looks as if the courses are all double - but they're in octaves (the "bronze" ones being the lower octave)...
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
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Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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Ha,ha, My bad day certainly, strirred up a few hornets!  yeah Brian, a sub forum
was what I meant, and I meant no offence to anyone either, just my thoughts at the time, and everyone is entitled to their own thoughts, right? I
actually was a guitarist once, but when I discovered the Oud I realised that to obtain the sound and capture that expression it was best to forget all
about guitar tunings and techniques, as the only way to really get it is the traditional ways, (for me, anyway), and yes I know, the traditional ways
are always getting added to and refined, especially in the Iraqi styles, with floating bridge, chords etc, sorry to ruffle feathers, but hey, it got
us talking and yep were all individuals, unique, and that goes for our playing
preferences and styles too, heck every oud player worth listening to is different and has their own touch and technique, cheers everyone, enjoy ouds
and the forums, they really are wonderful! 
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shareen
Oud Junkie
Posts: 218
Registered: 8-28-2007
Location: Upstate New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dreaming
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I am a guitarist who took up oud about 3 years ago. I never felt I needed markers, except I am still struggling to find where the quarter tones are
because I still don't HEAR them quite yet. Hey 40 years of western music brainwashing, what would I expect! I acually put nail polish dots on my
classcal guitar so I know where fret positions are, and I intend to do it on my ouds as well. Why not? If it makes my intonation better, who cares?
We are so lucky to be in a age of cross pollination of cultures and music styles. Master Faruk Turunz is coming to the States at the end of October
to a luthier showcase with all guitar builders. If a master like him can come to hear ideas of master builders of guitars, why can't we all do the
same thing? The true masters and innovators are open to ideas of others and do not have their feet bound in cement. It's what makes us all grow.
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
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Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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Hi Shareen, what a coincidence, I too had 40 years of western music brainwashing! One reason I did not use markers was the fact that every oud method
I came across said not to look at the fingerboard, and I found that if I held the oud in the manner recommended I could npt even see the fingerboard,
so I just stopped listening to western music altogether for quite a few years, only listening to Maqam music, to really get feeling those "1/4" tone
intervals, not an easy thing for a westerner given that the exact intonation varies with region etc. I also believe, (in fact it is proven) that the
eyes take a lot of energy away from the ears, if you've ever listened to a piece of music in the dark you will know what I mean, as you notice more
subtleties in the music. I prefer to use my ears to play music not my eyes, the same goes for tuning also.
Disclaimer:
Obviously I'm speaking for myself here, everyone else will have their own truth.
Cheers
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Sazi, how long did you listen only to Maqam music for? Western music is not all tied to 1/2 tones. For one thing, there are many tuning conventions
that are not equal tempered, in which each scale has a very different sound.
As to holding the oud perfectly vertical, I've seen too many serious players look at their fingers! In fact perhaps a majority of old time players
seem to hold the oud at an angle and watch the fingerboard, some continuously. If Farid and El Gibaley can watch the fingerboard, it can't be so
terribly bad.
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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Hi Fernand, I still only listen to maqam music, or really, I suppose I should say mainly traditional oud music, currently by players such as Saad
Mahmood Jawad, Khaled Ben Yahya and Raed Khoshaba, who yes, I've noticed do sometimes look at what their hand is doing, and also blend many
inspirations from many sources including their own heart, which I suppose is what I like the most about their playing, but when I first started, and
indeed up until quite recently, I had next to nothing to go on, learning by listening to the radio and playing along (or rather - trying to ) I never said looking at the fingerboard was bad, only that it was contrary to the
information I had gleaned from two oud methods, one Egyptian and one Turkish, - I too find myself looking, though if I'm playing a concert, sitting in
a straight backed chair I really can't see the front of the fingerboard.
No, western music is not all tied to equal temperament, I agree, I used to perform Mediaeval music using Pythagorian tuning, which was also the tuning
used on oud up to the 13th century, if I remember rightly.
Next time I have a bad day, I will go for a walk, swim, whatever, anything but comment!! Thanks for your patience everyone.
Anyhow, back to my oud,
Selaam.
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