Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thoughts & questions about fixed bridges
Hi everybody,
I always wondered, why the fixed bridges of ouds are so different as the ones used on accoustic guitars.
But then I saw FLIPAX Shehata oud and ... bingo ... a fixed bridge in accoustic guitar design (with a saddle) 
I think the advantages are obvious:
1. It's possible to use a bridge pickup, that is built-in to the saddle ... the saddle will be exchanged against the pickup. I have such a pickup in
my Western guitar and it's absolutely great sounding (nearly like a good microphone) and it's invisible.
2. If no pickup is used, the saddle could be built exchangeable (drop-in saddle), so that the action of the strings would be adjustable to the tension
by exchanging the saddle or shortening it's height ... as low as possible without buzzing.
PS: On guitars the action is even adjustable with a pickup ... look HERE.
And now the big question:
Why do accoustic guitar bridges have wings (the wood left and right of the saddle) and oud bridges do not? As far as I know, these wings are very
important for the guitar's sound.
Does anybody know that?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
|
|
Yeah 
Actually its nice because I have A Bone as A Saddle so it give a nice attack on sound of the strings.
I still Get a Good Attack because of the bone saddles.
its Just My labella trebles are a Bit dull and Flat sounding.
And The Pick-up is Located Under it.
I can All make my action Low By Just Sanding the bone. Take It Out And Sand The Bottom.
Quite nice actually...
Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  |
Why do accoustic guitar bridges have wings (the wood left and right of the saddle) and oud bridges do not? As far as I know, these wings are very
important for the guitar's sound.
|
I didn't Quite got the Question. Can U give examples of the left and Right Wings that Your Talking about.
Maybe A picture.
Thanks Chris
Philip
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi Philip,
you lucky guy with the "saddle bridge" 
HERE we go ... where you can see, that the bridge is streched by wood wings left and right of the saddle (not inserted in this images), which
widens the whole bridge to around the double width compared to a fixed oud bridge design.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara | | the bridge is streched by wood wings left and right of the saddle (not inserted in this images), which widens the whole bridge to around the double
width compared to a fixed oud bridge design. |
Probably because the guitar bridge has to hold up to much higher tension than oud bridge and so needs more gluing area.
I guess...
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Regarding the last question, Chris, it's probably as Sazi says, but as to your other questions, the answer is: because it's an oud, and we like ouds.
Although modern technology makes nice shiny things, there are lots of subtle aspects to the oud's sound, and much of the design is smart and
deliberate, and not because oud players barely descended from the trees, scratching their behinds with a bewildered look, and plucking instruments
made of coconuts with feathers.
There will be lots of experiments with new materials, like layered soundboards, some will work out, most will not. But the guitar's development has
run a long course too, and produced a different instrument. Why would you want a hybrid? A saddle gives a different sound from the traditional
string-loop-pulling-on-bridge. A floating bridge already sounds very different, more guitar-like, and personally I think it loses more than it gains.
It is in fact not that easy to obtain the old Arabian timbre, the vintage ouds are respected and valued, and you come along with "why doesn't the oud
have a saddle"?
|
|
|
Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
|
|
Hmmm, sounds like some people I know
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi again!
Seems logical, but why then is the bridge on my 12-string western guitar less wide than on classic or flamenco guitars, which only have 6-strings?
Tension might be one aspect, but as it seems not the only one.
Oh, interesting ... Philip (Flipax) might be interested, that Mr. Shehata didn't build an oud for him, but an oud-guitar hybrid
| Quote: | | A saddle gives a different sound from the traditional string-loop-pulling-on-bridge. |
Then Philip should notice, that his oud sounds noticable different, than any other oud. Sorry, I doubt that.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
|
|
Hey Guys Welcome!
Chris whats up?
What did I miss?
And what do you mean By your comment?
| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara |
Then Philip should notice, that his oud sounds noticable different, than any other oud. Sorry, I doubt that. |
Thanks
Philip
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi Philip!
I was just a bit sarcastic
In other words ... I bet your oud doesn't sound much different (acoustically, without using the pickup) to similar ouds (same design), which have a
standard fixed bridge.
Or does it sound different, because the bridge has a saddle?
Nobody can answer this question better than you.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
|
|
Hi again!
Regarding the wings Chris, I think It contributes on the tone.
I'm Taking consideration of a floating bridge for example.
Can u see sometimes the width of it. They are Not All same.
Because the Wider the wings the sound Changes it becomes a little warmer pehaps an add midrange. Vise Versa. Etc
I have Tried Mr Shehata's Floating Bridge. The Have Longer Wings and its sounds more balance for me.
Also You can ask ALAMI he knows about these.
He's Obsessed On Iraqi Oud's. One Thing he said that can be a disadvantage on a smaller width that it's prone to soundboard cracks because the
pressure is focused on a limited spot and the soundboard hold's it pretty good in a wider bridge length.
But on a fixed bridge, It's very subtle.
Maybe I'm Wrong or Right. But Definetely It has A Lot to do with the Overall EQ sound of the Instrument.
And Regarding my Bridge that has a saddle Bone all I can say is:
I'm the One Who ask Him To Make me a Bridge special for a pickup. Coz normally before he put the transducer underneath the bridge but this is inside
the bridge itself. It gets more Sound from Strings.
This is Actually a new design. I'm maybe the first one he tried the prototype. Because I remember when He was almost finishing the Oud. And Im Really
excited and I wanted him to ship Fast to me, then he said that he still needs time to check about the sound of the new designed bridge.
I already Know that my oud will sound Slightly Different Because of the Bridge Design.
Which is Cool First Time! woot!
Nevertheless Sucessfull Sound!
BTW Mr Maurice Built 3 Oud's For Me and this the only one that came Close to what I want! Imagine That!
I'm Lucky to Maybe First have the Design or Whatever...
For me it not a big issue.
Just Play It And Enjoy Man! Life is too Short. We may not know maybe tomorrow, next day, month, next year were cut off from this life we have!
"Always remember in Whatever we do,
Do it all in his Glory."
AMEN
Enjoy Whatever You Have Guys!
Godbless U all,
Philip
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Very interesting comparison ... thanks for the hint.
| Quote: | | This is Actually a new design. |
I thought so and I find it revolutionary ... not only in combination with a pickup, but I already told that
| Quote: | | I already Know that my oud will sound Slightly Different Because of the Bridge Design. |
How would you discribe the difference ... do most strings have more attack?
But I think the difference isn't that huge, that we can talk about your oud being a hybrid between oud and guitar, what FernandRaynaud indicated.
| Quote: | | Just Play It And Enjoy Man! |
Shure, but not at this time of day ... maybe my next oud should be electric, so I can play with headphones at night
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
|
|
Actually The One Difference I hear is.....
When I hit the strings hard you get a nice small glass shatter sound. I think because of the bone. Nice Sound!
But When I Play very soft. I mean Very Very Soft It's Kind Of Round..
Its About weird. LOL
Because normally Other People Like This Sound and my nylons sounds really balance warm and old school arabic sound. Nice Also.
The Only reason Why I want to change string is because I play a lot of soft picking with a Very very light right hand to get the subtle sound.
Wound Strings Are Amazing! No Problem for me Any String Sets!
So I need I very Good Dynamic Nylon Trebles that you can hear the difference if I play A fraction of a Volume Louder or softer!
Like Anouar brahem he Know's how to control his Dynamics!
Which I hear A lot...
Cheers Anouar Brahem!
Shalom,
Philip
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Ok, you that now the time is right for an example sound file or video?
Thanks for the detailled explanation!
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
|
|
OOPPS
I May Be exagerating A LIttle Bit!
Sorry I'm Not that good yet to play for you.
Its Hard to describe that Little POP sound that it creates.
I sometimes get that sound but not always.
It's Something to do on the angle of your risha and how it lands and Strike the String.
When U pluck the strings your kind off moving your Risha downward away from the string sets and my right hand slightly slides on the soundboard.
Thanks again my Friend,
I'm Not that Brave Yet To have sound File.
Hope You Understand.
In A Weeks Time
Hopefully In Shallah,
Philip
P:S:
I'm Hoping to get some lessons from Dubai244(Ghazi)
He also lives Here in Dubai. I already call him the other night.
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Good morning!
Philip, you don't need to give a virtual concert ... single notes will be enough
to demonstrate the difference, I think.
But let's have a look, what Alioud said HERE (5th posting) about floating bridges:
| Quote: |
Bone on top of the bridge generally produce clarity and crispiness, but your bases, sustain, and echo might suffer. |
And I want to come back one last time to FernandRaynaud's argumentation ... this time without sarcasm:
Yes, but why not think about possible improvements. Tony remember, what you told me about Sukar ouds, that Mr. Sukar seems to be more an engineer than
a carpenter and that exactly this fact made his development of an adjustable neck possible. And I remember, that you were very happy to have such a
neck.
BTW ... Fadi Mata also produces necks, that have a mechanism to adjust the strings action ... look HERE.
Usually ouds don't have such necks, but most guitars have it. Do Mr. Mata and Mr. Sukar build oud-guitar hybrids for this reason?
And do overdraw my argumentation ... if we wouldn't be interested to improve this historic instrument, we would still play an oud with 7 frets and 4
courses tuned to E-A-d-g
To make a long story short ... it's all a matter of personal preference and availability.
| Quote: |
A floating bridge already sounds very different, more guitar-like, and personally I think it loses more than it gains. |
Floating bridge is the key word ... the fixed bridge with saddle creates not an oud-guitar hybrid, but as it seems a hybrid of floating bridge and
fixed bridge ... regarding sound characteristics.
And as I already told you by U2U some days ago, I noticed by comparing ouds on Youtube, that not all floating bridge ouds have that flamenco like
trebbles we know from Naseer Shamma. Ali's floating bridge explanations (see link above) are an approach to declare the huge differences. But I think
string choice an scale length also play an important role here.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Chris, I did not say that adding a saddle makes a guitar-oud. I did say I expected that to give a different timbre. And I asked generally whether you
wanted a hybrid. I don't.
The reason I don't is because it's already hard enough to capture the classical oud timbre, and I have barely tasted it. It's most of all about the
timbre of the traditional instrument. Maybe in many years, after I've experienced a LOT of vintage ouds, I might have interest in such experiments,
today I prefer sticking a piezo on the soundboard rather than adding a saddle to the bridge.
The neck bolt in Sukar's design that you mention is a very modest and sensible change that I don't expect to affect the timbre. The neck is still
stiffly attached. A truss rod would be silly, warping is not the issue, as it is on a guitar. I wouldn't consider it a serious sacrilege to put
planetary pegs on an oud, but if an oud is hard to tune, I don't think it matters. If I were playing live concerts, planetary pegs might become quite
important.
Right now we have 3 very distinct families, the Arabian, the Turkish and the floating-bridge Iraqi. Each of these is very different. You haven't even
played a couple of each. And there are subtypes, and each instrument is in addition unique. I generally don't like the sound of Turkish or Floating
Bridge ouds, the Turkish are too nasal, and the Bashirs are too tinny. I prefer long scale, fixed bridge ouds with tied strings, big bowls, the old
style Arabian oud.
The natural tendency is for everything to melt together, 2nd law of thermodynamics, you know. There are areas where I respect, hope for, and even
expect, a certain purity. The guitar went one way, and the oud went another way, and it's fine with me. Maybe I even feel protective about the old
instruments because in time they may disappear. Put on machine tuners and and a guitar bridge, and frets and magnetic strings and pickups, and
lengthen the neck, and make the bowl flat, and add an MP3 player and a satellite dish and a toilet. Not for me.
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi again!
Mmh ... how about a waterproof bowl ... lol
Ok, serious again ... I understand what you mean, especially, that a historic instrument might vanish over time.
But I see all this more optimistic ... more diversity bears chances to realize individual preferences.
"Every coin has two sides" ... as we say in Germany
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
