Omar Al-Mufti
Oud Junkie
Posts: 333
Registered: 3-14-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
french polish
Hi there,
A question regarding franch polish. Do luthiers apply french polish prior to gluing the pickguard and bridge?
If yes, how is it possible to glue the two pieces on a finished surface? If no, how is it posdible to polish edges and corners around the bridge and
the circumference of the pickguard?
I do know how to do french polish and I get amazingvresults, but I still can'tpolish the edges perfectly
I appreciate any help
Omar
|
|
|
Doc139
Oud Junkie
Posts: 175
Registered: 2-23-2013
Location: Winterthur Switzerland
Member Is Offline
Mood: oud-sick
|
|
As much as I know usually the soundboard doesn't get any French polish, only the bowl, so the problem you are talking about then doesn't exist. Some
of our luthier friends among the forum members surely can tell more exactely.
Alexander
|
|
|
abc123xyz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 114
Registered: 5-17-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It's not recommended to apply any sort of finish to the soundtable, as it adversely affects the instrument's sound.
It's been discussed here several times before, though so far I've only been able to locate one of those threads, at
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=14647 .
If you do insist on polishing the face after all, then the bridge must be glued on first, since surely nothing must interfere with the critical bond
between the bridge and the soundtable.
David
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2949
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
Agree with those above—do not apply a finish to the face. Some people apply a light oil to the face, which doesn't seem to adversely affect the
sound. But shellac, lacquer and other finishes will kill the sound.
|
|
|
Omar Al-Mufti
Oud Junkie
Posts: 333
Registered: 3-14-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
i know that many prefer ouds without finish.
I still believe, like Turuenz for example, that a thin layer of shellac, not lacquer won't have a detectable drawback on the sound.
Assuming it has no bad effects, how do those luthiers do it? I mean the sequence of work with regard to fixing the bridge and the pickguard.
It is worth to always try it. If no bad effect occuers just leave it, if it not good for the sound, it's very easy to remove it totally withing 20
minutes with alcohol.
One more thing, does eggwhite have ANY drawback????
|
|
|
DavidJE
Oud Junkie
Posts: 265
Registered: 7-14-2013
Location: Vienna, Austria
Member Is Offline
|
|
Faruk definitely uses both lacquer and french polish on the face/soundboard of some of his ouds. If I remember correctly, he told me that it does not
have a negative effect on the sound. Maybe it does have some effect...I don't know. But clearly people like his ouds despite the finished
soundboards. My "custom single" has a matte finish on the face, for example. It does sound different from my unfinished Türünz, but I really don't
know if that comes down to a difference and thickness in woods, the polish, or some combination of the two.
|
|
|
suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1064
Registered: 1-10-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I have a floating bridge from belhaiba and asked a luthier to apply a french polish. I think to remember hé applied 7 layers.
It doesn't kill the sound at all. Consider it makes smthg like 20 gramms of shellac at more. Thats not so much.
I have a friend who made it on his yildirim, the result on the issue of sound was great. He wanted same finishing as Tareq al Jundi oud.
It brings a kind of more brillant sound, but difficult to describe by words. It's not a radical change of the sound but it ads something more on the
side of brilliance
To apply, on the floater of course no problem.
On a fix bridge it is usually apply before gluing the bridge for perfect finishing. Of course letting the part of wood where will be glued the bridge
without shellac
I dont know the technic to finish well the edges when the bridge is already glued
Hope this helps
|
|
|
Omar Al-Mufti
Oud Junkie
Posts: 333
Registered: 3-14-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks Suz 
|
|
|
suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1064
Registered: 1-10-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You're welcome 
Just take care i'm not sure at all of the number of layers.
Regards
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
a Thin shellac finish on top shouldn't affect the sound too much, classical guitars for example are usually French polished.
Omar, there are different techniques. But the edges are harder around the pickguard once its glued to the face. you can use like q-tips (ear cleaners)
with some shellac on them to get close.
Also, some other guitar makers polish the whole face with no bridge or anything on the face, Then they place the bridge on the face and scribe the
outline with a razor blade. then you take a miniature scraper to remove the shellac under the bridge only and glue the bridge down on bare wood. you
could do this technique with the pickguard too. if you are careful it will look perfect.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
|
|
|
Omar Al-Mufti
Oud Junkie
Posts: 333
Registered: 3-14-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks Samir,
I think it is possible to glue the pickguard directly on the schellack finish. The bridge needs definately a stronger wood-t-wood gluing.
In my case here I have an already made oud. It will be hard to remove the bridge now, unless it is glued with hide gule.
I would love to remove the bridge, tape the area, polish then reglue the bridge. Do you think I should try removing the bridge? Any suggestions how to
remove the bridge without causing any damage to the soundboard?
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
don't remove the bridge no need. you can tape the sides of the bridge so that way no shellac will touch the bridge and you can get really close with
those q-tip swabs. You are more likely to cause damage to the wood even if hideglue has been used.
about pick guards, well its true you could glue it to the finish but I don't think you will be able to use hide glue. epoxy would be the way to go but
it can be messy and I wouldn't do it.
I think its best to glue down the pickguard to wood and then polish everything, including the pickguard.
or as everyone said above, don't put a finish at all
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
|
|
|
Omar Al-Mufti
Oud Junkie
Posts: 333
Registered: 3-14-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
It is worth to try with this oud. I was successful to do it with other oud with different results. I would NEVER put any coating to Sukkar ouds. The
get badly affected by that.
On other ouds, they went fine. This particual oud I'm working on, Turuenz reduced, was actually polished by me. No detectable change in sound
charictaristics.
I had to remove the shellac because something went wrong. While I was doing the regular franch polishing circles, some of the blck stain of the
pickguard went off and messed the surrounding parts of the top.
So if you follow my posts, I wanted to have and original color pickguard (the Tortoise post).
As for the bridge, I can go for matte shellac which is easier to achieve in this case. Thicker coats of shellac, then sanding down until an even
finished surface is accomplished, without spiriting.
|
|
|
Omar Al-Mufti
Oud Junkie
Posts: 333
Registered: 3-14-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
I strongly believe that this thin layer of shellac will protect the surface from dirt, from pitting, and gives that thin sheet of spruce extra
strength.
The results are to be seen after implementation unfortunately
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2949
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
Of course it is possible for the effect of a finish to be positive—guitars and violins are generally considered to be improved with a quality
finish. The finish will affect the vibration of the top, which can have effects like taming certain overtones, etc. It is possible for this to be a
positive effect.
Guitars have roughly double the tension of ouds and different aesthetic goals, so the effect of a finish on a guitar is not relevant.
Floating bridge ouds typical are operating at higher tensions, though not as high as a guitar. This increases the amplitude of the vibration of the
top, so the effects of a finish are possibly not as significant.
If Turunz is designing his oud to function under a finish, then it is a different matter than taking an oud and putting a finish on it.
It seems unlikely that the finish makes the top stronger. Washing your hands also protects the top from dirt.
|
|
|
suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1064
Registered: 1-10-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I would say don't try to unglue the bridge.
To risky for just an aesthetic issue.
As far as i have seen, even if unglued in a smooth way it will make away some wood fibers. Not deeply so that you can gently sand and glue a new
bridge. But i let you imagine if you miss the opération....think twice before trying if you are not expeimented with that.
Best
|
|
|
Omar Al-Mufti
Oud Junkie
Posts: 333
Registered: 3-14-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
I decided not to unglue the bridge, but I really want to replace the pickguard and get an armrest made out of the same wood kind of the pickguard.
|
|
|
Omar Al-Mufti
Oud Junkie
Posts: 333
Registered: 3-14-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
Mechanically, shellac will definately increase the surface hardness and even the overall resistance to bending, in small values of course
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2949
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
Shellac is not particularly hard. Lacquer is a lot harder and it isn't all that hard either. Regardless, harder ≠ stronger in any meaningful
sense.
Keep in mind that the sound comes in a sense from the soundboard "bending".
|
|
|
suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1064
Registered: 1-10-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I can have made confusion between shellac and lacquer.
I meant the stuff you prépare yourself by dissolving in alcohol.
I guess the correct word in english shellac
For guitar luthier, at least, the most valuable in sound
|
|
|
Omar Al-Mufti
Oud Junkie
Posts: 333
Registered: 3-14-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
Shellac is the insect crust dissolved in alcohol. Lacquer is cellulose dissolved in a hydrocarbon solvent like thinner. It is said that shellac has
much better sound characteristics, at ages nicely with nice color
|
|
|
DavidJE
Oud Junkie
Posts: 265
Registered: 7-14-2013
Location: Vienna, Austria
Member Is Offline
|
|
On Faruk Türünz's website he writes that some of the soundboards have french polish and others are lacquered (and others have nothing). But I'm
fairly certain that one of his guys told me it's a natural shellac that they use. Maybe for people speaking English as a second language lacquer and
shellac are occasionally mixed up. I didn't known the difference.
|
|
|
Omar Al-Mufti
Oud Junkie
Posts: 333
Registered: 3-14-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
David, if you check Faruk's reduced price oud, you will see that the back is sprayed with a thin layer of matte lacquer, not shellac, he uses the same
thing on the top sometimes, but he also does shellac polishing (French polish) and he does it rather thick and very glossy.
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2949
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
Depends, most people prefer lacquer for steel-string guitars. There are also varnishes, such as those used on violins, which are another category of
finish altogether, traditionally made from tree resin cooked together with a 'drying' oil such as linseed oil in a rather complex and somewhat
dangerous process.
People do sometimes use a shellac-based varnish on violins, though it is still mixed with oil to create a harder finish.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
