alloushé
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Question about strings on Fixed and floating bridge Oud
Hello,
I have 2 Ouds :
1-) Fixed bridge, 57 cm string length + "Labella" strings. I just love its playability, the strings are not difficult to press which allows me to
enjoy playing and having less fingers pain and specially I do much less errors, I am more fluid playing on it.
2-) Floating bridge, 57 cm (I measured from neck to the bridge) + "Pyramid Lute Strings" that originally came with the Oud. I feel I need to
permanently apply additional force to play which leads to fingers pain with time and reduce the playability experience, not to mention the notes that
are half pressed here and here because the applied force was not sufficient..
My question: If I buy Labella strings for floating bridge (Oud 2), will I have the same tension as Oud 1 since it is the same string length (so
solving my oud 2 issue) ?
If not, what do you suggest me to buy for Oud number 2 as low tension strings ?
Remark: my tuning is FADGCF (up to down)
Thanks for your help...
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alloushé
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No body has clue if it works ?
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Jody Stecher
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I have not replied because some data is missing and the the data given is hard to understand. My guess is that other forum members who might be able
to help are similarly uncertain and have not given an opinion.
Give us the missing details and maybe someone will reply.
The only advice I can give is to try the LaBella strings and see if you like the tension and sound. Compared to Pyramid lute strings LaBella strings
are not expensive so I think it's worth taking a chance.
A high bridge on a floating bridge oud can create a tight feel of the strings. The steepness of the angle of the strings between bridge and tailpiece
can have an effect.
Usually in discussing music and musical instruments "up" means high pitch and "down" means low pitch. So if the tuning you have given is actually
down to up, and not up to down, all is well. If your tuning is really what you say it is it is no wonder the strings feel tight. Its hard to predict
which of the two ouds will explode or implode first. But no... it can't be. I think you are tuned in one of the standard Arabic F tunings.
You have given the scale length from "neck to bridge" but have not said what part of the neck. The standard measurement is from nut to bridge, that
is to say the vibrating length of the string.
Pyramid lute strings come in a wide variety of diameters and tensions. Is this a set designed for the pitches to which you are tuned? If these strings
are meant for a lower tuning then of course it will hurt to play.
And without knowing whether the neck angle and nut height and bridge height are the same on the two ouds I don't know who can say with certainty
whether the same set of LaBella strings in identical tuning will produce identical results of ease of playing on the two ouds .
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alloushé
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When data is missing or something is not clear in a topic I think the best thing is to engage communication to obtain clarification as one may not be
aware of such parameters, it is good you mentioned them.
Meanwhile I put the Labella set of Oud 1 on Oud 2  I feel that I have less
tension, I will see with time..
thx anyway.
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newlife_ks
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Can you tell us something about the action of your strings? At the nut there should be no more than about half a mm and about 3 mm where the neck
meets the body, if you want fluid playing. Depends on the tension of the strings though.
Greetings from Klaus in Germany!
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alloushé
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Quote: Originally posted by newlife_ks  | | Can you tell us something about the action of your strings? At the nut there should be no more than about half a mm and about 3 mm where the neck
meets the body, if you want fluid playing. Depends on the tension of the strings though. |
Hi Newlife_ks
Measurements (approx ):
Oud 1 (labella strings) : At the nut 0.8-0.9 mm ; where the neck meets the body: 2.65 mm (high pitch side); 2.8 mm (low pitch side)
Oud 2 (pyramid lute) : 0.9-1.3 mm (not the same along the nut) ; where the neck meets the body: 1.85 mm (high pitch side) and 3- mm (low pitch
side)
I am wondering why there is too much difference in Oud 2 along the nut 
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newlife_ks
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In my opinion the action is too high with both nuts. With my oud it's about half a mm on cc and C strings. This might be the problem with your oud.
You could take off the nut and sand its bottom side down little by little and see if it gets better. You should have an even surface to put the
sanding paper on in order to give the nut's bottom a plain surface.
Maybe there are other opinions about this matter here, I'm curious too.
Greetings from Klaus in Germany!
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alloushé
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| Quote: Originally posted by newlife_ks | In my opinion the action is too high with both nuts. With my oud it's about half a mm on cc and C strings. This might be the problem with your oud.
You could take off the nut and sand its bottom side down little by little and see if it gets better. You should have an even surface to put the
sanding paper on in order to give the nut's bottom a plain surface.
Maybe there are other opinions about this matter here, I'm curious too. |
Thanks, I will seriously consider filing the nut petit à petit as you said, thought it is curious to have such a nut with that deviation between both
sides (0.9-1.5 mm) means approx 60% !!
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newlife_ks
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Of course you could also use tiny round files and deepen the slits. Depends on what tools you have. Or a hacksaw. Or take sanding paper, make a fold
and use this as a file. Always watch out that the groove is deeper towards the pegbox.
Greetings from Klaus in Germany!
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alloushé
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I just took out the strings and the nut is glued....is it normal ?
I did not understand this "Always watch out that the groove is deeper towards the pegbox"
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newlife_ks
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Nuts may be glued or not, that depends. So I think filing in this case is better than flattening the nut on the bottom side. Maybe you are lucky using
a rubber mallet giving the nut hits by the side and so loosen the glue, but that's your decision. If it was my oud, I would give it a try, but if the
glue (in most cases bone or fish glue) is too strong, I'd rather choose the filing method.
Answering your second question - the string must rest on the nut front part pointing to the fretboard. So the groove should either be at least
parallel to the fretboard or have a slope towards the pegboard, otherwise the string can't vibrate correctly. I'm sorry, but my english vocabulary is
maybe not sufficent to explain complicated technical terms like this, and I hope, you unterstand the meaning.
Greetings from Klaus in Germany!
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alloushé
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Or maybe a Dremel with low speed in order to get out this nut gently and file it on the bottom side could be better than filing the front side ? (I am
afraid that grooves disappear because it is not too deep, we can barely see them..)
Using surrounded tools ?
 inventaire 2 by A M, on Flickr
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newlife_ks
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As you said it's mostly oud no.2 that worries you. In this case you'd have to give the bottom side a slant to level the difference of 0.4 mm. That's
impossible without hightech machines, you'd end up with a convex nut bottom.
A dremel for removing the nut? Definitely not! I know that bone glue can be softened with water, that's why luthiers have been using it for centuries.
But I'm far from being an expert concerning bone glue. If it was my oud I'd try sanding paper because depending on the grain it is nearly impossible
to have the grooves too deep suddenly. Definitely no motorized tools. Better ask a luthier when insecure.
Greetings from Klaus in Germany!
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alloushé
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| Quote: Originally posted by newlife_ks | As you said it's mostly oud no.2 that worries you. In this case you'd have to give the bottom side a slant to level the difference of 0.4 mm. That's
impossible without hightech machines, you'd end up with a convex nut bottom.
A dremel for removing the nut? Definitely not! I know that bone glue can be softened with water, that's why luthiers have been using it for centuries.
But I'm far from being an expert concerning bone glue. If it was my oud I'd try sanding paper because depending on the grain it is nearly impossible
to have the grooves too deep suddenly. Definitely no motorized tools. Better ask a luthier when insecure. |
Ok I will take into account your advices. No dremel, promise
I will try softening the nut with water and if it doesn't come out I will file the front.
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alloushé
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Water did not work, I used a very thin cutter to "cut the glue" between the tiny space between nut and beg box, below the result, not bad ha?
 nut by A M, on Flickr
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newlife_ks
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Looks good so far. What's the next step for you? How do you proceed?
Greetings from Klaus in Germany!
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Jody Stecher
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Is this a left handed oud?
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alloushé
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Surgery done. 2.5 hours. Filing with paper grain 600. It took me a while (settings on flat surface, last photo) 
New measurements:
Oud 2 (pyramid lute) : nut :APPROX 0.52- 0.59 mm; where the neck meets the body: 2.34 mm (high pitch side) and 2.72 mm (low pitch side)
First impression with pyramid lute (that originally came with oud) : Weird, OMG that's clearly better, tender, thx newlife_ks  you encouraged me to dare doing it. I noticed much less stress while doing
exercices on 3rd/4th position (I was almost feeling disabled in that region due to strings tension)
I showed it to my wife without saying anything she told me : "where is the bump"  ) (she meant the edges had important height before the surgery).
Now the tune is unstable, I should wait a while for stabilisation.
One question remains in my head: why the luthier did not consider these parameters ?!!
 IMG_5068 by A M, on Flickr
 IMG_5067 by A M, on Flickr
 Screen Shot 2018-02-23 at 00.38.59 by A M, on Flickr
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alloushé
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no
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alloushé
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I confirm today- after sleeping- that playability has substantially improved, I am thinking to file this nut a little more
Strings are now more stable.
I also noticed that there is less "buzz" for example when playing Ré on the C string.
Thank you all for every detail you wrote here!
I took the opportunity to clean this ugly glue. I did not use glue.
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newlife_ks
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Great work, alloushé, you made it! I feel happy for you and wish you much joy when playing.
As to your last question - it's hard to tell why the luthier did not adjust the nut better. Maybe some other forum user can say more if you tell us
who built the oud. I have only one oud and no further knowledge about oud workshops.
P.S Glad I could help you!
Greetings from Klaus in Germany!
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alloushé
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| Quote: Originally posted by newlife_ks | Great work, alloushé, you made it! I feel happy for you and wish you much joy when playing.
As to your last question - it's hard to tell why the luthier did not adjust the nut better. Maybe some other forum user can say more if you tell us
who built the oud. I have only one oud and no further knowledge about oud workshops.
P.S Glad I could help you! |
Yes, you helped me do you need anything from France ? I am ready  du chocolat noir ?
To answer your question, this is who made my Oud
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=17242#pid11...
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newlife_ks
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Sorry to see you had so much trouble with your ouds by Rabih Haddad ! I really hope you are content with your - playable! - oud so far now. I myself
was lucky with my Fatih Ameen oud from Cairo because the former owner had been in Cairo himself to check and play ouds in the workshop. No faults on
the oud and sounding beautiful.
Greetings from Klaus in Germany!
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alloushé
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We say in French "ce qui ne vous tue pas vous rend plus fort" -->what does not kill you make you stronger
Can one file a little bit more later on ? for example nut action at 0.4 or 0.3 mm ? I imagine there is a limit to respect right ?
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newlife_ks
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That's hard to say, I really don't have a concrete answer. Trial and error I'd say. In case you file the grooves too deep you can always put a thin
layer of veneer under the nut to correct your error. The limit is surely exceeded when hitting the strings hard makes them slap against the
fingerboard.
Other hints or observations on other player's ouds are welcome!
Greetings from Klaus in Germany!
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