Jonathan
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Re-drilling holes on bridge
Has anybody ever tried to re-drill the holes on the bridge of an oud for uneven spacing, without removing it from the face?
I have an old oud (1892), with the original face, original everything (except, I think, for the nut). My gut feeling is that it originally had just a
single treble string, and double bass. I think Dr. Oud brought up this topic a while back--that some early ouds (I believe that he was talking about
Manols) had this configuration.
Down the road, I think somebody replaced the nut, drilled another hole in the bridge (closer to the middle than the original single treble string),
and called it a day.
The problem is, the irregular spacing makes it tough to play, and believe me, I need all the help I can get.
To do this right, I will have to redrill all of the holes.
Seems straightforward enough, but I wanted some input.
By the way, I would be afraid to remove the bridge in any way because the face has been sanded in the past, and it is quite thin in spots. Sounds
awesome, but it is pretty thin.
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Jonathan
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If you look closely above, you can see that there is actually a groove where there used to be the extra bass string. There are only 11 pegs, so there
were only 11 strings total. So, the treble string must have been single. Cool oud history.
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Jonathan
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The other choice, I guess, is to just go with a single treble string, as it was intended. It will take a while to get used to that, though.
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
If you look closely above, you can see that there is actually a groove where there used to be the extra bass string. There are only 11 pegs, so there
were only 11 strings total. So, the treble string must have been single. Cool oud history. |
Certainly you can redill the bridge. Bes ure to protect the face on both sides with some plastic sheet or even thin sheet metal. You might get someone
to hold the oud steady so you can use both hands to control the drill. I have a stand that I can clamp the neck to and then clamp the stand to my
workbench. I use a 1/16 dia bit, drilling from the back side of the bridge to clear the chuck. Don't worry if the exit holes aren't perfectly aligned,
since you can align the string knot to compensate. If you need to fill some holes, glue in a round toothpick and stain it with a black marker. Slow
and steady does it, good luck.
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mavrothis
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Hi Jonathan,
Just to clear something up, this configuration is not for there to be a single treble string. The old ouds had either only 5 string pairs, or 11
strings but with the bass string, or "bam string" under the treble strings. This was done so when you play on the most treble pair (D in Turkish
tuning), you have a string for your pick to "rest" on as you do when you pick through the other string pairs. I'm pretty sure that where your single
drone is now, there is another hole in the bridge next to it to allow for the low A pair. So, the original stringing/tuning was probably, from lowest
to highest:
A (x2) B (x2) e (x2) a (x2) d (x2) E (x1)
Many of my first oud teacher's ouds have this configuration, and I even have a picture of Batzanos playing with a Manol in this configuration.
Maybe you could try that first, replace the nut for the original stringing, and see if you find it interesting enough to keep it that way.
Take care,
mavrothis
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freya
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I don't know how far the end of the oud is from the bridge on your instrument but you can find long (6 in.) 1/16th in. bits if need be. With the long
bit, securing the oud well as the good Dr. points out is important. The other thing I've found is that if the new whole is anywhere near the old one,
even if it's been plugged with a toothpick, the bit will try to "drift" into the old hole. I now temporariy plug the old hole with a brass rod while
drilling the new one and plug the old hole with a toothpick after the new hole is drilled.
Harry
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Jonathan
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Thanks, guys. I guess the "drift" was my big concern, but freya, that sounds like a good idea.
Mav, I have heard of what you wrote, but take a look at what Hank Levin wrote in this thread:
http://mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2071#pid13150
Here's what he said:
I recently had a conversation with Peter Kyvelos about the string arrangements on old Turkish ouds. He asked me if our 1905 Manol (still for sale,
btw) still had the original single treble and double bass. It does not, although it does have 12 pegs, as did the Karabyans I've worked on and copied.
He explained that around the turn of the century it was common for Turkish ouds to use 11 strings, but the bass was doubled and the highest string was
single--much like lutes, and for similar reasons. The gut top strings were often hard to get into tune, as their diameters varied (as you have noticed
on lower quality nylon as well). The single top string gave a peculiar clear sound, which Peter says can be noticed on some old recordings.
Eventually, most of those ouds got converted to use one bass string (which does indeed get retuned often) and double trebles. But even in the
converted ones, you can still see the extra bass hole left empty. Of course, the nut must be redone, and the extra treble hole drilled. First I'd
heard of it, but it bears out on looking at the instruments. BTW, a Karabyan I've just restored has 12 strings, all double. --Hank Levin
I am leaning towad thinking that the oud I have was strung up in this way.
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mavrothis
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Wow,
That's really cool. I never heard of that before.  It makes sense though.
Thanks for letting us know about that.
mav
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Hank Levin
Oud Maniac
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Redrilling a bridge
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dr. Oud
| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
If you look closely above, you can see that there is actually a groove where there used to be the extra bass string. There are only 11 pegs, so there
were only 11 strings total. So, the treble string must have been single. Cool oud history. |
Certainly you can redill the bridge. Be sure to protect the face on both sides with some plastic sheet or even thin sheet metal. You might get someone
to hold the oud steady so you can use both hands to control the drill. I have a stand that I can clamp the neck to and then clamp the stand to my
workbench. I use a 1/16 dia bit, drilling from the back side of the bridge to clear the chuck. Don't worry if the exit holes aren't perfectly aligned,
since you can align the string knot to compensate. If you need to fill some holes, glue in a round toothpick and stain it with a black marker. Slow
and steady does it, good luck. |
Dear Jonathan,
Just stumbled on this string (I don't get to peruse the forum very often), so I hope my response here is not too late to be of help.
First of all, (re-) drilling the installed bridge from the back is very dangerous, as the holes must be perfectly placed at the front --not
at the back. The slightest drift of the drill can make the bridge unusable when the holes are drilled from the back. On the other hand, if the holes
in front are perfect, the rear holes (within limits) are not so critical. Also, because the height from the face is critical, that distance
must be carefully measured and each hole position prick-punched.
How to drill from the front? First, plug the holes that you are replacing. Do a good job, more than just cosmetic, as that way you will hopefully
restore some strength to the bridge. Hardwood toothpicks seated in with epoxy should do it, placed from both ends if necessary. Later you can use
black dye of some sort to color them. (Careful not to get it on the top!)
To drill, I use a long (9"-12" or so) thin drill bit made of piano wire from a hobby shop or machine supply shop that will flex as the hole is
drilled. You can just hammer the end flat and grind a "spade" tip on that end, rather than trying to hunt for an actual twist drill that long. Twist
drills can be found, but they are expensive and break easily, and it is more important to have the correct wire size. If you want a hole slightly
larger than the wire, by the way, hammer the tip out slightly before grinding it.
Then, to keep the hole parallel to the face, I "build" a jig consisting of a hardwood or plastic block about 3/4" x 1" x 4" or so, and drill a guide
hole into it the correct distance from the bottom edge, using a drill press so that it comes out perfectly parallel to the bottom of the guide. When
you drill the bridge, drill through the jig, holding the jig firmly against the face and against the bridge. Be sure the drill is starting against the
pin-punch prick in the bridge. Make an effort to hold the electric drill so that the wire bit is parallel to the top--don't rely entirely on the jig
to hold the bit straight for you.
You should have another set of hands hold another small wood block against the back of the bridge as you drill, so when the drill
emerges it doesn't blow out the wood at the back of the bridge.
Yes, it's a lot of work, and somewhat hair-raising. Good luck!
Hank
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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Thanks, Hank. I have been staring at the oud, and have been close to starting the project a couple of times, but have always backed down at the last
minute. I am just not going to do this myself. It seems like it would be easy, but I love this oud too much to take any chances with it. It seems
like when things seem as if they are going to be easy, that is when the problems begin.
On the other hand, it is tough for me to play like this. So, in the meantime, I am just playing it "old school"--single treble string. It sounds
thinner that way, of course. But, I think I am getting used to it. I have not doubled the bass, only because the oud is so old, and I don't want to
put any undo tension on it.
It has a very very warm, beautiful tone, and if I messed up the face, I would be kicking myself forever. Eventually, I will get somebody that has
done this before to do the job.
The other thing that intrigues me, of course, is that it is so old, but it is clearly, unmistakably a Turkish oud. I know that Manol gets the credit
for essentially developing the Turkish oud as we know it, but this early oud (by Mgrditch Karibyan), is a Turkish oud--in style, in size, in tone. It
doesn't pre-date Manol, but it is contemporary.
There was, coincidentally, a Mgrditch (?last name) that worked in Manol's shop. That is a fairly common name, but it makes you wonder.
Thanks, everybody, for your help. You guys have helped me out with my minor repairs in the past, which have come out fine, but I think that this one
I might just sit out.
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