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SamirCanada
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Question for Oudman
Hello Ustaz.
Iam just wondering here. We see you selling verry high quality ouds quite often. I dont want to be intrusive but do you mind sharing with us the ouds
you hold on to and keep to play? how about a little playing sample for those to 
Thanks
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oudman
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Here is one that I recently got from Shehata that i like a lot - sound is really nice
I will post a sound clip soon
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revaldo29
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lovely instrument! I've never seen a shehata bowl that looks like that. what is it made off?
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SamirCanada
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Verry nice.
I think its palissandre wood Adnan. But I could be wrong. Either way its a really nice instrument. Did you ask to put the Araq'a at the bottom
because you play from there?
Thank you
Samir
ps: lets hear it when you have a chance.
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mavrothis
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Hey buddy,
Great looking oud! We should get together sometime so I can hear it...translation...when do I get to try it out?  lol
mav
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oudman
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Hi
The bowl is palisander, fingerboard and pegs are ebony.
Mav, you know youre always welcome to drop by
Im attaching a clip of the oud, my son kept on grabbing my hand, so youll excuse me if its not 100%
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SamirCanada
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It sounds verrry nice bud.
thanks for sharing
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revaldo29
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Hey oudman,
Very nice sounding oud. I always hear the term "pellisander rosewood". Does that make any sense? Is pellisander a type of rosewood? Also, what
kind of strings are you using?
Adnan
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SamirCanada
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Adnan.
Pelissandre is another word for rosewood so Iam told by Maurice. I asked the same question. Maurice offers a pellisandre oud wich is what you see up
here. And after looking carefully at yours its has a deep red coulor I thinks its Indian Rosewood wich is actualy more expensive then regular
pellisandre(rosewood).
The wood experts will be able to clarify everything for us. But none the less both are gorgeous.
Take care.
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oudman
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Strings are aquila but tuned half a step down.
While i like the sound of aquilas strings. im one of the people who think that the regular set is too much tension for an ouds face and bridge.
Im actually working on a custom set from aquila, if anyone is interested, ill let you know how it goes.
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revaldo29
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Hello,
Samir, my oud is pelissander rosewood as well. It does have a deep red color but I've take pictures of my bowl where it looked very brown. I think
it has to do with the strength of the flash on the camera. I didn't realize that pellisander was its own type of wood though. I thought it was a type
of rosewood.
Oudman, I too have tuned my oud down a quarter tone after Samir mentioned it. I noticed that my oud gave a much warmer sound. I would be very
interested in hearing your opinion on the new strings. I need a new set.
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syrianoud
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Nice oud Victor , I hope that you like it , Are you keeping it ?  Tonight my Two ouds arrived to New York and %99.9 I will get them tomorrow.
Hope that this oud will be played with a lots of GOOD health. Mazal Tov . Sam California
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SamirCanada
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Adnan Iam sorry.. I was reading over and It wasnt clear what my message was.
What Iam told is that Rosewood is Palisander its a different word for the same wood. There are different species where some come from India, others
from southAmerica etc... and they all are slightly different.
I really like tuning down my oud I find it easier to control the rishi on the strings since the tension isnt as high its like there a little softer
and dont offer too much resistance. Plus the sound is better to my ears.
Would it be possible to have them custom made so they have the same tension as when they are tuned down but actualy be on the right notes? If so I
would like to be in on that to. Let me know the info.
Lets hope you get them fast Samir. I dont know what the temperature is like in California now.. but we have 5 inches of snow over here already.. So I
really hope they are not being left in the cold when they get to my house. Anyways what can you do.
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syrianoud
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SamirCanada .In California the temperature is 85 today and will be hot the whole week. Good luck,Please post the Oud when you get it. Thank you
Salamat ,Samir California
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DD
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| Quote: | Originally posted by SamirCanada
I really like tuning down my oud I find it easier to control the rishi on the strings since the tension isnt as high its like there a little softer
and dont offer too much resistance. Plus the sound is better to my ears.
Would it be possible to have them custom made so they have the same tension as when they are tuned down but actualy be on the right notes?
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Greets Samir and Adnan,
If you string an Arabic oud to normal tuning with Aquila's standard Turkish set, the tension will be the equivalent of their standard Arabic
set tuned about a half step lower (see Mimmo's comments in the 'Aquila strings and tension' thread, and also his table of string gauges and tensions and three posts below it in this other thread).
Take care,
Don
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revaldo29
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Hello,
Thanks for the info DD. I don't see how this would provide an identical sound though. Correct me if i'm wrong, but If you lower the tension,
won't you be giving up density? Yeah you would get a lower tension but you would also get a thinner string to play on and that might not produce the
same rich sound.
Adnan
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DD
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| Quote: | Originally posted by revaldo29
Hello,
Thanks for the info DD. I don't see how this would provide an identical sound though. Correct me if i'm wrong, but If you lower the tension,
won't you be giving up density? Yeah you would get a lower tension but you would also get a thinner string to play on and that might not produce the
same rich sound.
Adnan |
You're welcome Adnan,
The tension is the same in both cases: On the Arabic oud, the .60mm Turkish 1st string tuned to c has the same tension as the .62mm Arabic 1st string
tuned a half step lower. The difference between these two is essentially the same as the difference between the c and the g on your oud now, and the
same sort of difference you produce when you press the different strings with their different gauges to the fingerboard in order to vary the pitch.
AFAIK it is the lower tension, resulting from having either the normal string tuned down a half step or the thinner string tuned to the normal pitch,
that is the key to the desirable changes in texture and tone.
Anybody else have a comment?
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revaldo29
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DD
You're welcome Adnan,
The tension is the same in both cases: On the Arabic oud, the .60mm Turkish 1st string tuned to c has the same tension as the .62mm Arabic 1st string
tuned a half step lower. The difference between these two is essentially the same as the difference between the c and the g on your oud now, and the
same sort of difference you produce when you press the different strings with their different gauges to the fingerboard in order to vary the pitch.
AFAIK it is the lower tension, resulting from having either the normal string tuned down a half step or the thinner string tuned to the normal pitch,
that is the key to the desirable changes in texture and tone.
Anybody else have a comment? |
Right, but when I speak about lowering tension, I'm talking about the Arabic string and the turkish string being tuned to the same frequency.
Since the turkish string will be providing the same frequency but at a lower tension, it must have a smaller density. Equation for frequency is =
(c)Tension/Density. I'm thinking that this awesome sound we get from tuning the arabic strings down a bit might have something to do with the
thickness of the string. Its true that by tuning the turkish set down, you get the desired tension, but will you get the same quality sound from a
thinner string or will it not affect the sound that much?
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DD
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| Quote: | Originally posted by revaldo29
Right, but when I speak about lowering tension, I'm talking about the Arabic string and the turkish string being tuned to the same frequency. Since
the turkish string will be providing the same frequency but at a lower tension, it must have a smaller density. Equation for frequency is =
(c)Tension/Density. I'm thinking that this awesome sound we get from tuning the arabic strings down a bit might have something to do with the
thickness of the string. Its true that by tuning the turkish set down, you get the desired tension, but will you get the same quality sound from a
thinner string or will it not affect the sound that much? |
If the .60 Turkish strings and the .62 Arabic strings are tuned to the same frequency, yes, definitely; the tension will be different and so will the
feel and tone, but remember the question that I quoted from Samir:
| Quote: |
Originally posted by SamirCanada
Would it be possible to have them custom made so they have the same tension as when they are tuned down but actualy be on the right notes?
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He wanted (and I thought you did too) to get the same good sound and feel with the strings tuned to normal pitch, rather than a half step
lower.
If we compare a Turkish 1st course tuned at one pitch to an Arabic 1st tuned a half step lower, we get exactly the same thing in principle that we get
if we compare the different courses to one another that are on your oud right now—say, the 1st and 2nd, which you have tuned down a half step:
different thickness, different thickness-to-length ratio, different pitch, same tension, same good feel and tone.
Are we together on this then, my friend?
Take care,
Don
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revaldo29
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Hehe, its so hard to communicate this stuff. I understand what you're saying Don but I think you misunderstood me. Ok so let me start my question from
the begining and see if we get anywhere.
Say you want to tune the middle D string. If you use the arabic set and tune the string to the D, lets say you get a tension of 43 newtons. If
you use the turkish set and tune them to that same D, lets say you get a tension of 40 Newtons (the same as the tension you got from tuning the arabic
string down a quarter tone). This accomplishes exactly what samir wants. A string tuned to the normal D with a lower tension, meaning it would be
easier to play. But, the turkish string now is thinner than the arabic string. So, when you compare the quality of sound, its impossible for them to
be identical. How can you get the exact same sound if one string is thinner than the other?
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SamirCanada
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Yah thats what I mean Adnan.
You see I love the feel and the ease of play with the tuned down strings. And on top of that its less tension on your oud. I get it that if you take
the turkish strings they'll be thiner and you wont get the same sound.
Iam also going to sound like a whyning baby but I have to admit that I like the tuned down sound much better. Especialy for the songs I play along to
like Om kulthoum mostly. So it would be nice to have such a set with the right thickness and tuned to the exact notes but with a lower tension on my
second oud.
Thanks fellas.
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DD
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| Quote: | Originally posted by revaldo29
Hehe, its so hard to communicate this stuff. I understand what you're saying Don but I think you misunderstood me. Ok so let me start my question from
the begining and see if we get anywhere.
Say you want to tune the middle D string. If you use the arabic set and tune the string to the D, lets say you get a tension of 43 newtons. If
you use the turkish set and tune them to that same D, lets say you get a tension of 40 Newtons (the same as the tension you got from tuning the arabic
string down a quarter tone). This accomplishes exactly what samir wants. A string tuned to the normal D with a lower tension, meaning it would be
easier to play. But, the turkish string now is thinner than the arabic string. So, when you compare the quality of sound, its impossible for them to
be identical. How can you get the exact same sound if one string is thinner than the other? |
Yes, this is starting to feel ticklish.
AFAIK you get the same sound quality with both the Turkish and the Arabic strings in the same way that you get the same sound quality with both the
tuned-down Arabic 3rd and the tuned-down Arabic 4th etc. on your oud right now.
The Turkish 3rd is thinner but at a different pitch from the tuned-down Arabic 3rd, just as the tuned-down Arabic 3rd is thinner but at a different
pitch from the tuned-down Arabic 4th. Same principle: Turkish tuned-up 3rd is to Arabic tuned-down 3rd as Arabic tuned-down 3rd is to Arabic
tuned-down 4th or 5th; it's just that the Turkish and Arabic strings are a half-step apart and the Arabic strings are a 4th apart, etc. Your
tuned-down 1st course is thinner than your tuned-down 2nd course, but both have the same good sound and feel. Same thing, just farther apart in gauge
and pitch.
Again, AFAIK, of course.
If we keep this up, we might need to talk on the phone or something! I'll U2U my email in case others ask us to please take this conversation
somewhere else. ;-)
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revaldo29
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Hehe,
Ok I see what you're saying. It will be thinner but the sound will be the same in the same way that the 3rd is thinner than the 4th but it still
gives a nice sound. I will probably by a new set of strings over christmas break when I have the time to actually switch out the strings.
Samir, I feel what you're saying bro. I too like the sound of the oud tuned down a quarter tone. It gives a certain sound characteristic of
older tunes.
Adnan
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Brian Prunka
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It seems to me that there's no way to lower the tension without also decreasing the density or diameter of the string. (assuming we're keeping the
pitch constant).
You guys seem to be discussing different things.
On the one hand, there's the opinion (seemingly widely held) that Aquila's Arqabic strings have too much tension at normal tuning.
This much everyone seems to be agreeing on. T
here are two possible solutions offered: 1) reduce the string tension by using a lower tuning 2) reduce the string tension by having differently
designed strings.
If you are playing with other musicians regularly, then option 1) is not really viable, as the ney player can't tune down, and qanun/violin/bass/etc.
are not usually going to find it practical to tune down (or play everything in strange keys). If you're playing by yourself or just with percussion,
it's an excellent solution.
So there's interest in keeping standard tuning, but reducing the tension. DD's suggestion (excellent IMO) is that Aquila's turkish set would give you
approximately the same tension as tuning down, while keeping standard pitch. This is by reducing the diameter of the string, not its density. It may
be possible to have Aquila manufacture strings that have the larger diameter but lower density, but this seems unlikely (even if it's possible, they
seem like they have a standardized density that would be a lot of work to change for isolated cases).
DD's point seems to be this: if your c and g strings both sound good, then you're already getting that sound with a smaller diameter string, so why
would you be unable to get a good sound with a whole set of smaller diameter strings? There might be a number of reasons for that, though (the total
tension, for one).
comparing the standard arabic set to the standard turkish set tuned identically is not of any relevance. They would of course sound quite different.
Since there's no way to have lower tension with constant diameter and density unless you lower the pitch, then the only way to keep the oud at concert
pitch is to have smaller diameter and/or lower density. Whether the sound is identical is irrelevant; if you want to use aquilas at standard tuning,
you don't have much choice.
now here's my question: what if i have a turkish oud at arabic tuning?
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samzayed
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Hey guys, I once tried using the Turksih set, tuned to arabic concert pitch on my oud (60cm), and it didn't work. Even the non-music people around me
said it sounded too "floppy"
My next experiment with Aquila is to use a combination of the Turkish and Arabic set. Mimmo sent me some stings to try for the A and d, where he
lowered the tension on them. I will the use C and F from the arabic set, and use c' and g from the Turksih set. It may be a while before I try
this, since I have only one oud, and I like to use it for something other than string experimentation )
I think we should start a thread that expresses interest in seeing the Aquila set be lower tension, Mimmo may do that for us
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