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al-Halabi
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Some of the instruments collected by Sachs and Hornbostel as well as other early collectors are probably around in various museums. According to
Eckhard Neubauer, Arab instruments assembled in collections include some instruments that date back to the 18th century, and a few even earlier. In
his detailed study of the structure of the premodern oud (up to 1500) he relies entirely on Middle Eastern literary sources, and doesn't refer to or
draw data from any surviving old ouds. It would have been good to have an inventory of the pre-twentieth century ouds owned by museums. Sometimes
small and more obscure collections own rare pieces not found in the more prominent museums.
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Musa
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Hi al-Halabi,
Since the earliest lutes used in Europe were really ouds, before they were modified, it stands to reason that there could possibly be some ouds in
European collections even from the 12 and 1300s. As you indicated, their owners were often people of wealth and royalty who cherished them. Looking at
the early illustrations is certainly useful, but to find actual instruments would be terrific! This would be a great project for antiquity sleuths.
Salamat,
Musa
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al-Halabi
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Hi Musa,
Unfortunately there are no surviving European medieval lutes, which were indeed direct copies of the oud. The earliest surviving European lutes are
Renaissance lutes, which are already rather different in shape and structure from their medieval ancestors. Luthiers who make European medieval lutes
have been using pictorial evidence from the medieval period to reproduce the instrument. I saw one such lute used in a performance of medieval music
and it was almost identical to an oud. The maker, who is a leading lute maker, told me that he used medieval illustrations and also the oud in
constructing the medieval lutes he made. Using the present-day oud is not anachronistic because the medieval Arabic descriptions of the oud show how
amazingly similar the instrument's features were to the ouds we know today.
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zalzal
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This subject is so interesting....
Just i found that french master of maqam Marc Loopuyt plays a very ancient oud dating fm 1820th in the cd THE "ORIENTS" OF THE LUTE Nr2.
He writes in the cd jacquet the following:
"Around the sun figured by its rose, the 'ûd is decorated with inlays which are called "Orients" (See Orients du luth, vol I). They correspond to the
four cardinal points, the instrument's cosmology, and remind of the universe of the five elements of qualitative physics, whether Arab, Greek,
Persian, Armenian,]ewish or other. But just like the orient of a pearl is the reflected light of its subtle matter, the orient of a lute is also the
quasi ineffable mode on which it reflects the sound. When l say quasi ineffable l mean that only poetry or symbolics can give an idea of the quality
of an orientallute worthy of the name.
The instruments figured on this Volume II are venerable 'ûd-s, and this is how l would define their respective orients :
* TOQATLE ONNIK, Konya 1823: speaks of the solar plexus. Swiftly returns to silence after talking. (tracks 5 to 10, 12, 13). (Track n° 5 is
attached)
*KHATCHTOURlAN Konya 1915: articulation and eloquence (track 4).
Two lutes from Alep:
* ABRAS, supposed 1930: sound of dried clay. Likes the night. (tracks 2, 3, 19).
*HAIK, 1924: vigorous and powerful, sharp even (tracks 2,19).
A lute from Damas:
* NAHAT; around 1940: solar, taIks of the plexus and the throat. Nightingale (tracks l, 11,14 à 18).
ln aIl these, the three first courses are equipped with gut strings while the low-pitched are copper spun silk strings. They are played with a horn or
feather plectrum prepared following antique triturations. Apart from some rare exceptions in Maghreb, such sound research standpoints exist no more.
Oudists have modernized and seek a sound with no attack transition but with long resonance, even though it might be wimp and pretentious.
ln a noble lute, there is both the way the sound arrives and the way it returns to silence. ln any case, in general aesthetics, pretty and beautiful
rarely coïncide.
Since 1970, following the great masters of Bagdad or Istanbul, virtuoso soloists avoid plucking too energetically for fear it might have an
incongruous popular whiff. The plectrurn and the strings are made of nylon, as are many elements stuck on the instrument for decoration. Of course one
cannot avoid the present day, whether in the East or in the West,
but why embrace every lower middle-class common place ? Are artists following or preceding?
The presence of a protection plate under the plectrum, as well as personal intuition and 20 years of associating with authentic masters of tradition,
from Morocco to Bagdad via Istanbul and Damas, have for long pushed me on to a different path, which i teach at the National Music School of
Villeurbanne (Rhône, France).
The other aspect of this second volume is to show the affinities of the 'ûd and the 'ûd player, within a given style itinerary. By affinities of the
'ûd, 1 mean the company of other instruments: the duduk oboe, the kamânche and rabâb spike fiddles, another 'ûd, the Tek and datf tambourines, the
naqqârah kettledrum, the violin, the darabukkah goblet drum, the turki kebir tanbur lute."
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Jameel
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This has turned into a very interesting thread. I did a bit a webcrawling for Loopuyt to see if I could find some pics of his ouds. I didn't get too
many, but I did find this one of a Nahat, which looks to be the same as the one from the cover of his Orients cd. If anyone has better pics of this
oud, please post it.
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Jonathan
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Zalzal, did you mean to attach track 5?
Does anybody know anything more about Toqatle Onnik, Khatchtourian, or Haik?
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zalzal
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I tried to send track 5 with oud toqatle onnik but it seems that size is over 1mo, so it did not go through.
Apologize, i do not know how to cut a track to keep it less than 1mo.
I found an article of al ahram on a vynil collector who owns "the oldest oud in Egypt," and there is a photo.
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/718/profile.htm
Although in spanish you will find small photos for old ouds exposed in moroccan museums or kept in private family hands
http://www.webcciv.org/cultura/etnografia/etno_paginas/etnografia_a...
First two are dating back to XIX century and last one is fm end XIX.
It seems most of the discussion here turned around oriental ouds.
There must te be real treasures in Maghreb as well.
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Musa
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I have a feeling that if someone was to go on a directed search for ouds in the museums and archives of the world, we might see some ineresting
results. I once worked at the American Museum of Natural History in New York City. It was amazing what one could find in the basement there! Many
outstanding discoveries have been made involving objects that have gone unnoticed for ages. I also have a hunch that an exploration of the vast
Vatican collections could be quite productive with regard to ancient lutes and other instruments.
Salamat,
Musa
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Sidi
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Ah yes, the great Ben Harbit** ouds:
Ben Harbits in Fez were Morocco's Nahats. They made ouds as far back as the late 1800s. Sadly like their Syrian colleagues, they no longer grace us
with their fine instruments today. Amed el Bidaoui was one of their most famous clients. You can hear him play their ouds in most of his
performances. The ouds in these pictures are both pre 1930s models if memory serves me. They can be classified as mid-range models. For the
high-end, Ben Harbits made gorgeous models with elaborate decorations and outstanding craftsmanship. Their ouds had a distinctive pear shaped bowl,
which was often very deep. I’d love to discuss this some more when I get a chance to soon.
BTW you folks are having a great discussion here, so please carry on.
-SidiM
** Pronounced "Ben Har'beet"
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Sidi
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Here's another Ben Harbit in a museum here in Rabat:
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SamirCanada
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I think one of the DUoud players uses a oud with a verry similar pickgard. I also think it has a cutaway neck feature. Since there from the maghreb
its verry likely that they ended up with one.
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JC1907
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My oud instructor in Turkey, Osman Nuri Ozpekel owns a Manol that originally belonged to Yorgo Bacanos. It could be the one on Bacanos' CD cover. It's
dated 1899 inside oud. It's a very delicate instrument, very mellow sound.. I always liked playing that one when I went to his house for lessons.
Regards,
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
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In the attached image fm a book on moroccan instruments you can see part of an oud benherbit. The text says it comes fm Fes, XVIIIth, and it is laying
in Batha Museum. Made of mahoogany, cedar, worked beech, mother of pearl, ivory . Measures L100cm x l37cm x H18cm. It is shaped like a mandolin and
tuned with four courses C G D A. That is what it is written.
I really do not know what part of the luth this image could it be.
The dimensions fo the first benherbit oud which Sidi attached "upstairs" are 81 x 18,8 x 36 cm.
On the second oud sent by Sidi, it is written that the luthier is Benherbit Mohammed Ben Tahar also made of mahoogany, cedar, worked beech. It is
written that the back of the oud is called Dhar, the rosaces Chemsat and the pegs Kermouda.
On the third image posted by Sidi why is the finger board so white ?? Is this ivory ??? Is it possible ??
Jonathan asked about oud Toqatle Onnik. Toqatle onnik was the grandfather of Onnik the luthier who made the oud onnik at Istanbul. This family came fm
Toqat (toqatle means fm Toqat).
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Jonathan
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Thank you very much, Zalzal. The image that you posted is incredible. I wish I could see the rest of the instrument.
I am assuming that you are talking about Onnik Uner, who was also known as Onnik Karibyan, and Kuçüküner, and was based in Istanbul. Onnik Uner
was born approximately in 1900, so perhaps Tokatli Onnik was the grandfather, but I think it would be more likely that he was a great grandfather, at
least.
I know that Onnik Uner was born in Thesoloniki, but perhaps the family was from Tokat before that. If you know any more, I would be very grateful
for any information that you can share with us.
Again, thank you very much.
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Stefan Andalus
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The Metropolitan Mueum of Art in NYC has an oud in their musical instruments department which I photographed (illegally I think) many years ago. My
memory of it is that it is an old Nahhat. I have lost the photo! I will be living in the Boston area for three months starting next week, and I will
give myself the project of directing questions about old ouds to the people at the Metropolitan, the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, and the various
Harvard University collections. Who knows? Treasures may be found. I once worked in the old storehouse of the Museum of the American Indian to get
data for my Masters thesis, and it was incredible what there was in plastic bags on shelves untouched and unseen for decades!
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Mike
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Here's one I just obtained two days ago. It's not as old an oud as I think Jameel's question was asking about, but it is still about 80 years old, and
in excellent condition. Many thanks to Maurice Shehata for helping me procure this oud. More details about the maker and information about the oud to
come later, but here are some photos for now.
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Greg
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What a splendid instrument. And it appears to be in amazingly good condition, considering its age.
Sincere congratulations Mike, a terrific find.
Regards,
Greg
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Jonathan
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That's stunning, Mike. Mabrouk.
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Elias
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Wow Mike! what an incredible oud you found!!
MAbrouk my friend!
please let us know more about this instrument!
salamat
elias
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Sidi
Oud Maniac
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Hi,
Zalal, thanks for posting more info on Ben Harbit. I actually know the book you mention. it's a small paperback with photos of many other
instruments. I wanted to grab a copy and scan it for the members...thanks for beating me to it. 
The fingerboard in the 3rd oud is indeed ivory. Many ouds were made with such fingerboards, inlcuding some Nahats.
Mike that's a great find, alf alf mabrouk. I'm guessing Jameel Georges here...can't wait to hear more about it. Maurice did a great job digging
this out in such a pure condition.
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
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Sidi, you said you would love to discuss on Benharbit ouds some more "when I get a chance to soon.".
What else do you know on Benharbit ouds, genealogy, family history, quality of ouds, other customers than Ahmed el Bidaoui, whether Benharbit ouds
still alife and kicking or all of them just in museums. By the way Samir Canada remarked similar characteristics with one oud of Duoud. Do you think
is a Benharbit ??
On a match Benharbit vs Nahat who could be the winner ??
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Musa
Oud Addict
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Hi Steven Andalus,
Thanks for taking up the idea of doing museum searches. I see that your museum experience has also led you to appreciate the undiscovered treasures
that currently reside in museum collections. I'm wishing you success in your search! Please let us know whenever you come up with something.
Meanwhile, it would be great if people could post more pictures of early ouds from contemporary Middle Eastern and European illustrations (paintings,
tapestries, etc.)
Salamat,
Musa
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
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Musa in this thread you have links to many paintings on ouds (since medieval times, not very contemporary)
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=3095
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al-Halabi
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This last weekend I visited the Musical Instruments Museum in Brussels. It has an enormous collection of over 7,000 instruments from all over the
world, of which some 1,500 are on exhibit. The museum has only one oud on display, but it is the oldest oud I have seen in person. I found it
particularly interesting because it matches exactly the detailed description and diagrams of the oud made by Villoteau in Egypt in 1800, and those
made by Edward Lane in the 1830s during his residence in Cairo. What distinguishes this older Egyptian oud from present-day ouds are its seven double
courses and its straight pegbox that is almost at right angles to the neck. (The seventh bass course is slightly above the fingerboard and was clearly
used for drop notes and drones.) Today, seven-course ouds are not standard, and a straight pegbox is no longer seen. The shift to the modern 5-6
course oud with a curved pegbox probably took place in the late nineteenth or early twentieth century, so this oud in Brussels is representative of an
older style no longer around. It had no label inside, but it could be 150+ years old. Villoteau, who was a scholar accompanying Napoleon's expedition
to Egypt in 1798-1801, wrote a long description of local instruments with great professional precision, and he also took a collection of Egyptian
instruments back to France. His diagrams of the oud and its parts are an exact representation of the instrument on display in the Brussels museum. (I
was unfortunately not allowed to take photos.)
This Egyptian oud is the oldest I have seen in any museum. The oud I saw in the Metropolitan Museum of Art about five years ago was I believe an older
Gamil Girgis oud. It was almost identical to one I have. At the museum of musical instruments in the Cite de la Musique in Paris I saw a Nahat on
display. I can't remember the date of its manufacture, but it was clearly not as old as the oud in Brussels. This Nahat was restored for the museum by
the luthier Wolfgang Fruhe. Fruhe showed me a copy of it that he made - beautiful workmanship, but with weak basses that he admitted were a
disappointment although he replicated every aspect of the original precisely.
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stringmanca
Oud Junkie
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Here's a link to the (English version of the) Brussels museum:
http://www.mim.fgov.be/home_uk.htm
Click on the 'Wealth' link for information on the collection (no oud pictures, though).
There are various publications that you can order with pictures of the collection.
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