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mikokiko
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Psychological Effect of Coptic Musical Heritage on the human
I have started this topic here to discuss and contemplate with you guys on the rich musical heritage that the Coptic Church now inherits, which is
considered by her to have been preserved for two thousand years, since she was first established. I include this here on this site, since it falls
under the subject of Middle Eastern Music. I also started this post to attract some people, and make some people aware of the different musical
cultures of the Near East. Hopefully some of you will be interested in reading this, and giving a little a time...
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zalzal
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Is it to religiously elevate human ?? Has it to do with sufism and sufi maqam (i mean stations when elevating to God) ?
Any coptical secular music ? Is there any physiological effect like some gnawas ceremonies in Morocco are held to heal mental illness ??.
Is just choirs and human voices or instruments are accepted ?
Is oud present in coptical music?.
Are there any relation to ethiopian church hymns or armenian church hymns or assyrian chaldeans nestorian rites, any influence on one or the other
way?
What are the aim of this hymns ?
If just sang, can we transpose to instruments like oud??
Well you see, i know nothing at all on coptical music, do not reply if you feel it is not necessary to yr thread, don't matter.
Me i am interested on physiological effects, just like oud did till XIX century i believe,
I think in Vienne an oudist called Marwan Abdo is applying some musical therapy to patients with mental illness and there are positive effects
arisisng.
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mikokiko
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Ok...
The first part of this topic will discuss the different scales I have noted down and found performed in the church, and how their siound intervals are
very precise. I will give a long itnroduction on some history and things I have learned about the tuning of scales in Middle Eastern Music.
These scales i have noted are, their Arabic Maqam equivalent:
1. Maqam Bayati (Like in 3ala Baladi Al-Ma7boub, Akun Sa3eed, Ya Leilat Al-3eed, or Zalamouny Al-Nass)
Arabic Music Intervals (Intervals in brackets are the differences in Turkish tuning):
3/4 (8/9) - 3/4 (5/9) - 1 - 1 - 1/2 - 1 - 1
2. Maqam Rast (Like in Leih Telaw3ini, Agharu Min Nismat Al-Ganoub, Al-Amal)
1 - 3/4 (8/9) - 3/4 (5/9) - 1 - 1 - 1/2 - 1
3. Maqam Sikah (Like in inti fakrani, not many songs or hymns based int this maqam)
3/4 (5/9) - 1 - 1 - 1/2 - 1 - 1 - 3/4 (8/9)
4. Maqam Huzam (Like in Al-Ahat and El-Atlal from Um Kalthoum)
3/4 (5/9) - 1 - 1/2 (5/9) - 1 1/2 (1 4/9) - 1/2 (5/9) - 1 - 3/4 (8/9)
5. Maqam Neirouz (Can't think of any songs right now...)
1 - 3/4 (8/9) - 3/4 (5/9) - 1 - 3/4 - 3/4 - 1 (Couldn't find Turkish tuning for this maqam, doesn't seem to be a very poular one)
6. Maqam Nahawand (Like in Zekrayat, Raq Al-7abib, and Ya Toul 3azabi)
1 - 1/2 (4/9) - 1 - 1 - 1/2 (5/9) - 1 - 1
7. Maqam Saba (Like in Howa Sahih)
3/4 (8/9) - 3/4 (5/9) - 1/2 (5/9) - 1 1/2 (1 4/9) - 1/2 (5/9) - 1 - 1/2 (5/9)
Turkish Theory:
For those of you that don't know, the turks recognize four different sound intervals in their scales. They divide their octave (Arabic equivalent:
Maqamat) into 53 microtones. Meaning that each whole tone is subdivided into nine equal parts, each called a comma (koma in Turkish). A comma equals
exactly 22.6415 cents. Only Four out these nine are recognized in their notation system. That is the
Major whole tone = 203.77 cents
Minor whole tone, 8/9 = 181. 132 cents*
Major semitone, Apotome, 5/9 = 113.2075 cents (13 cents higher than the western half tone)
Minor semitone, limma, 4/9 = 90.566 cents (9 cents lower than the western half tone of 100 cents)
Though these are the only recognized intervals in Turkish Music, most Turkish musicians in reality now play many of their scales like bayati and Rast
with 6/9 or 7/9 intervals instead of 8/9 on the third note (Rast), second (Bayati), or first (Sikah and Huzam). This is closer to the Arabic tuning of
the three quarter tone, worth 150 cents. This in Turkish terms would be about 6.75 commas. I believe though, taht traditional Turkish Ottoman music
was played with what they have notated now, otherwise they would have made a notation for it. This is most probably because of Arabic external
influence on the Turks. The Ottoman Empire just at the beginning of the last century had stretched vast parts across the Middle East.
Cents: The Western Modern Logarithmic scale divides the octave into 1200 cents, meaning that each semitone is worth 100 cents (thus whole tone is 200
cents). So to reach from C (Rast) to the higher C1 (Kurdan) on your oud, you need to complete 1200 cents, just to get that double frequency and halved
wavelength. The same applies vice versa.
The three quarter tone used by the Arabs today like in maqam Bayati and maqam Rast and so many of the maqamat, is a phenomen different then what would
have been 200 years ago in Egypt, or Syria, or Palestine. The music of Amr Diab and Hakeem and all those singers, completely leave out the wonderful
traditions that the Arabs had. So, if the three quarter tone really wasn't traditionally played the way it is now, how was it played?
Well, you see, the oud that many of you here have can play any tonal interval. ANY TONAL INTERVAL!!! If you are skilled enough you can play 15/18 of a
tone, in relation to another note! For example if we take Maqam Rast and instead of playing its third note exactly half way between the whole and half
tone, we play it slightly higher than that, and if we higher its seventh note, from being exactly 1/2 tone, then we get a slightly different musical
effect. This then would be different than what Maqam bayati would have. Even though it contains about the same tonal intervals as Maqam Rast although
with a different tonic (starting note), the musical effect will be more different, and with these more natural sounds of the scale, one can bring in
much expressive power.
This is why the comma system, being more accurate in playing tones, is a very favoured system by the Turks.
Take Maqam Nahawand for example, if we lower its third note from being an interval of 1/2 tone, to 4/9 (limma) of a tone, it will make it more
depressing. Or if we shift it three commas higher, it will sound more mellow and happier. This is why the three quarter phenomenon is not as precise
as the old tradition of the Arabs, who did exactly what I describe now. If you listen to the very old songs of Um Kalthoum (1930's and early 40's),
you'll find that these rules were in place, and the exact quarter tone was raarely ever used. take for example the song, Al-Ahat (Lovely song!), based
in Maqam huzam. Instead of its starting tonal interval being 3/4, here it is higher, and sounds much closer to the 8/9 interval used by the turks. If
we compare this with the Maqam Huzam used in Oloulou (3abd Al-7alim 7afiz) we find that it uses the rigid interval of 3/4, and for me does not give
the same efffect. The former is much more richer in sound than the later. You see, its of Arabic and all of Eastern music's essence to use the Natural
scale!
So, why does modern Arab music abandon these natural intervals? Well simply because the traditional takht which was composed of the three or four
natural instruments of Oud, Nay, Qanun, and Kamanga (or Rababa) could play all these intervals. But when these knew evenly-tempered western
instruments were introduced to the ensemble, they were only built and altered to play the exact quarter tone, because they are even-tempered. Now, we
often here the accordian, and organ and all these western instruments. 3abd Al-Wahab really helped spread this new phenomenon. Also, there was the
desire to create harmony with Arabic Music, with which the Natural scales did not sound pleasing. But now with the exact quarter tone, half tone, and
whole tone, harmony can be applied more easily. Listen to the second part of Daret Al-Ayam and see how Wahab incorporates harmony with these
instruments. Arabic Music has always traditionally generally been considered monophonic (without harmony) and melodic, mainly because of its essence
and nature, and because of the natural scales, with which harmony to the common ear will sound displeasing.
The second factor to the spreading of the exact quarter tone system, is that in Arabic theory, in its notation system, the most precise tone that can
be written is the 3/4 tone. One cannot notate the higher E flat (Kurd) in Maqam rast, than in maqam Bayati. It is all based on oral tradition, while
in the turkish system, this can be notated through the comma system. However traditionally most Turksih scales had the four intervals mentioned above.
I firmly believe, and I want to make it clear that I have no valid proof of this, that Arabic Music did actually use this comma system a long time
ago, before the Western musical notation system was established. It was that when the Westerners first came to the Middle East in the eighteenth
century, that there was the desire to westernize a lot of things. And thus here came the idea of simply modifying the flat and sharp with a dash
across it to symbolize a tone inbetween two western semitones. In my opinion, this system has now failed us of the beautiful tradition that once was
much more alive than it is now, though many musicians still use these tunings.
The third largest factor in obliterating this idea of Natural scale, was when many of the famous musicians in the Middle East met together at Cairo,
in 1932 for the Arab Music Conference, and concluded that the octave should be divided into 24 equal tones. This was because of the influence of the
idea of the even-tempered musical system of the West. This contributed to the loss of the old intonation of Arabic Music among many of our famous Arab
musicians.
It seems the Turks, organized their notation system much more efficiently than the Arabs did, and were able to notate the least audible interval of a
comma. The Persians have also been known to divide the scale into 53 equal microtones, thus each whole tone containing nine equal parts.
Now that we know all of this, how will this benefit us in learning about Coptic Music and its effect on the human?
What does all this have to do with how we react to music?
This to be continued in another post...
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mikokiko
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Zalzal,
some of the questions you asked in your post will be discussed here later on, you will have to stay tuned. But for your other questions I would be
more than happy if you could E-mail me at petersibrahim@hotmail.com, and i will answer them to the best of my ability.
If anyone else would also like to ask me questions about this please E-mail me. Or if relevant enough with this topic ask here...
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al-Halabi
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Peter, a couple of comments on points or questions you raised:
The comma system does appear in medieval Arabic treatises on music. It formed the basis of the influential theories of Safi al-Din al-Urmawi
(13th-century Iraq), who used the intervals of the comma, limma (4 commas) and apotome (5 commas) to explain how the tone and the scales are
constructed through combinations of these three types of intervals. The current Turkish theory is grounded in this medieval system and its ancient
predecessors. The comma system remained in use in Syria into the mid-twentieth century. For example, the oud method of Fu'ad Mahfuz ('Ta'lim al-'ud,'
in four volumes published in Damascus in the 1960s) uses it, and so does the book on music theory and practice by the Syrian violinist and composer
Tawfiq al-Sabbagh ('al-Dalil al-musiqi al-'amm,' published in Aleppo in 1950). Al-Sabbagh shares your view that the system of 24 equal quarter tones
misrepresents Arab music and spoils its beauty. Today Arab musicians will sometimes use the term comma when they talk about an incremental change in
intonation, but the comma system has been replaced entirely by the new system of quarter tones.
The assumption you make that today's Turkish theory reflects the way Ottoman music was once played is not fully accurate. In earlier centuries a
different intonation actually existed. The 5-comma and 8-comma intervals central to current Turkish theory were not always there in Ottoman music, but
emerged only in the 18th and 19th centuries. The Turkish intonation of segah (as an example of the "half-flat" interval) used to be lower than it is
today. In the 17th century it was approximately 2.5 commas flat, creating an interval of 6.5 commas, which is 3/4 tone. In the following centuries a
higher version of segah, only one comma flat, was added. It was this higher segah that the modern Turkish theorists adopted - it fit in neatly with
the Pythagorean system because it was a sum of two half-tone (bakiye) intervals each with 4 commas, thus creating the 8-comma interval that is basic
in Turkish theory today. The lower version of segah was not recognized by the modern theorists, but it has continued nonetheless to be used in
practice in various makams, especially Ussak (the equivalent of Bayati). Tanbur players have one or two frets for this lower segah in addition to one
for the high one-comma flat segah. So the 3/4 tone existed in Ottoman music in the past as a basic interval, and continues to exist today even though
the theory does not acknowledge it. In his album the Turkish oud player Munir Nurettin Beken performs a 17th-century Ottoman piece with the note segah
played lower than today to reflect the practice of the time (a point mentioned in the liner notes) .
In the 17th century Ottoman music had another curious difference with today's Turkish theory: it used the lower version of segah also as the second
degree of Hijaz. So the first interval of Hijaz was around 6.5 commas (3/4 tone) rather than 5 commas as it is today. Around the turn of the 19th
century Turkish music adopted the lower four-comma flat note used today instead of the old segah to serve as the second degree of Hijaz. So like the
8-comma interval, the 5-comma interval was a later development in Ottoman music.
The older Ottoman intonation may have been a reflection of Persian rather than Arab influence. In the 16th-century almost all the musicians employed
in the Ottoman court in Istanbul were imported Persians, who played in a style and with instruments common in Iran. Also, the old Ottoman intonation
curiously matches the intonation used in Persian music. The second degree of dastgah Homayun, the equivalent of Hijaz, is played about 2.5-3 commas
flat, like the old Turkish intonation for the second degree of Hijaz; and the second degree of dastgah Shur, the equivalent of Ussak or Bayati, is
played 2-3 commas flat, also like the old Turkish segah. Santur players, who cannot easily retune their instruments during a performance, actually use
the same course for the second step of both modes, just as Ottoman tanbur players used the same fret in the 17th century. I don't know if the
intonation of Persian music is the same as it was in earlier centuries, but the parallels with the old Ottoman system are interesting and may suggest
a historical connection.
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mikokiko
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Al-Halabi, thanks for your corrections. When I said that Turkish music traditionally only used four different sound intervals, this was only my
belief, and not based on solid fact as I did not have any. I grounded this belief on the logic that if they have more than the four known soudn
intervals, they would have other wise notated them. Plus, I find these four sound intervals very close to the tuning of the scales of the Coptic
Music, and old Arabic music.
When I spoke of the Arabic influence, this was again just a suggestion. I believed this to be so because the Ottoman Empire stretched across the
Middle East for so many centuries. Logically, this would mean that the Arabs would have a hige influence on the music of the Turks, as any musical
culture in the world is vulnerable to change because of external influence. But thanks to you, you shed some light in this topic, and helped me
realize it was most probably the Persians who introduced the 3/4 tonal intervals to Turkish.
I also remember reading somewhere that Al-Farabi did mention that the Arabs did use the comma and limma intervals in their music. He called it the
"Arabian comma", and equaled the Turkish comma of 22.6415 cents. However Moustafa Gadalla in his book, "Egyptian Rhythm: The Heavenly Melodies" states
the following:
"It is interesting to note that the European treatises of the Middle Ages refer to this particular comma of 22.6415 cents as an "Arabian Comma", even
though no Arabian written documentation in the Arabized world ever mentioned it or used it-except for the Arabic speaking people of Egypt."
This is very odd? What's your guys' opinion on this?
Stay tuned for more about the origin of the comma interval...
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al-Halabi
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Peter, you are welcome. Your assumptions were perfectly logical. I think that trying to reconstruct the tonal system and intonation in the region
during past centuries is inescapably difficult. The writings on these aspects of the music were too sporadic to give us a comprehensive picture of the
situation in various places and times, and when we do have descriptions of the tone system we are not always sure that the theory presented actually
reflects accurately the performance practice of the time. Modern Turkish and Arab music theories, as we know, are both deficient in accounting for
some pitches and intervals actually in use, and it is likely that this kind of discrepancy between theory and practice prevailed in past centuries as
well.
In some cases writers were very precise about intonation, including of the microtonal intervals that are the most challenging for us to reconstruct.
Al-Farabi, who gave exact ratios for the intervals, assigned the neutral third interval (C-E half flat) that was called wusta Zalzal a value of 27/22,
which is equivalent to 355 cents, or the ¾ tone of current Arab music. Al-Urmawi assigned to this interval a different ratio equivalent to 384 cents,
which corresponds to the current Turkish 8-comma interval. Other writers sometimes spoke about such tones by name or fingering position on the oud,
but we have no way to know their exact intonation. One example is Ibn al-Tahhan, who was an accomplished oud player and court musician in Fatimid
Cairo (mid-11th century). In his book on the music scene of his time he describes the six frets used on ouds in Egypt. One of them was a neutral third
called wusta al-‘arab. Then he adds that there was another tone between the wusta al-‘arab and the major third called wusta Zalzal, but most
people did not use it, although it was played by the Persians. He says that he knows how to play this wusta Zalzal without needing to add a fret for
it, but that it can be difficult and therefore not recommended for beginners. He is describing two sizes of neutral thirds, a lower one common in
Egypt and a higher one played in Iran, but we have no way of knowing the exact intonation of either of these two "half-flats."
The term Arabian comma was not used by Arab writers, although medieval European treatises did mention it. But as a unit of measure it was used in
musical calculations, especially in Syria, instead of the Pythagorean or the Holdrian comma. (The value of the Arabian comma of 22.6415 cents was
apparently calculated in China already in 45 B.C.) Today only Turkish music has preserved this comma system. How common was it in Egypt at any time?
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mikokiko
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So, we've been talking a lot about the use of the comma system among the different Middle Eastern nations and races. The question may arise among you:
"Where did this comma originate from? Who first thought of dividing the whole tone into nine parts?"
We can never know for sure who the first person was to come up with idea of dividing the whole tone into nine commas. Although this is so, much of the
musical world today believes that Pythagoras himself was the one to divide the whole tone into 9 commas. The term comma in the Western world today is
used to describe the difference in tone of the twelfth fifth from the first fifth on the piano. If you guys are not familiar with the term fifth, a
fifth is an interval of five diatonic degrees. For example a fifth above F is C, a fifth above C is G, a fifth above G is D, and a fifth above D is A.
You guys should know about fifths, your Ouds are tuned based on them. Once we reach that twelfth fifth on the piano, there is a comma higher here. So
why is it that this twelfth fifth from the first C is slightly different in tuning?
In logarithmic terms, an octave (All the notes it takes to reach from a certain frequency to its doubled, or halved frequency, the Western octave has
twelve semitones, go check it out) is 1200 cents. A perfect fifth is 702 cents. So much for being perfect...
So, say we were to ascend seven octaves (twelve fifths) from the lowest C (Do) on the Piano. The calculation would be the following:
1200 x 7 = 8400 cents
But if we are to ascend twelve fifths, which in theory are the same, this is the total cents we get:
702 x 12 = 8424 cents
The 24 cents (actually is 23.46 cents) here is approximated to be the Pythagorean comma.
There is also known to be the syntonic comma which is attributed to Didymus the Musician of Alexandria from the first century. This syntonic comma had
a value of 21.306 cents. This comma, as far as my knowledge goes, is no longer used.
So, if it really wasn't Pythagoras who developed the comma in Greece, in the 500-400 B.C., who did?
(This brings me first to a relevant point I would like speak about.)
Well, we do know that Pythagoras himself did live in Egypt for a significant part of his life to study "the Mysteries" of the ancient Egyptians with
one of the high priest. So, he lived 22 years of his life in Egypt. Imagine how much he must have been influenced by the music of the Egyptians, after
spending a significant part of his life in a foreign land!
You see, the ancient Egyptians were said to have already established a musical system and theory, that a certain period in time, the Greeks had lacked
such a type of system. Many scholars agree that the Egyptians greatly impacted the way Greek music functioned and sounded, and its theory, which is
commonly attributed to the great Philosopher, Pythagoras. But forget about what the scholars say, let's see what the Greeks in those time had to say
about the Egyptians:
Plato confirms this idea, of the Egyptians first developing a musical theory, in his book of Laws, stating:
"Long ago the Egyptians determined on the rule...that the youth of a State should practice in their rehearsals postures and tunes that are
harmonically pleasing. These they prescribed in detail and posted up in the temples...As regards music, it has proved possible for the tunes, which
possess a natural correctness to be enacted by law and permanently consecrated."
Many of the famous Greek philosophers such as Plutarch, Plato, and Aristotle write in the 6th century B.C., saying that music had a very poor status
in their time. They were always making reference to the older musical system of the Greek isles, known as the Musical System of the Dorians.
Herodotus, came from a Dorian town in Greece, and tells us that the Dorians' true ancestors were really the Egyptians:
"...if one were to trace back, generation by generation, the lineage of Danae the daughter of Acrisius, the chiefs of the Dorians would turn
out to be true-born Egyptians...Enough has been said about all this. Others have explained how and through what achievements they became kings over
the Dorians, despite being Egyptians, and so I will not go into that. I will record other things that others have not picked up."
This must imply that the Greek Dorian musical system, which had influenced and reached southern Italy, had been largely impacted by the Dorian
ancestors the Egyptians. It was a common well known fact that these Egyptians were the ancestors as Herodotus says, "I will record other
things that others have not picked up."
Plato also describes the Egyptian laws of Music, to be "the ideal laws." It was taught to the Greek youth of his day:
"Every means, then, shall we say, must be employed to keep our children from the desire to reproduce different models in dance or song...can
any of us find a better device for this purpose than that employed in Egypt?...[where]...the plan is to consecrate all our dances and all our
tunes."
Plato also credits the Egyptians for first knowing and acknowledging the natural sounds of the scales (as opposed to the equal temperament). He states
this in his book of Collected Dialogues, stating the following:
"The unlimited variety of sound was once discerned by some god, or perhaps some godlike man; you know the story that there was some such
person in Egypt called Theuth. He it was who originally discerned the existence, in that unlimited variety, of:
- the vowels-not 'vowel' in the singular but 'vowels' in the plural-and then of
- other things which, though they could not be called articulate sounds, yet were noises of a kind..."
And yet again, in the same book, he outlines what the Egyptians had achieved saying that they had sound laws that governed melodies and poses. That
they also had standard type modes and the regulations by which they are performed-time, place, and occasion. He also says that these descriptions of
the Egyptian "…postures and tunes that are harmonically pleasing. These they prescribed in detail and posted up in the
temples..."
The Greeks were heavily influenced by the Egyptians. Many of the famous Greek philosophers of that day had all traveled to Egypt to learn about
Astronomy, Mathematics, Music, and many other subjects. Homer, Lycurgus of Sparta, and Plato, Eudoxus, and Pythagoras some of the many who came to
learn. Athenaeus had also affirmed in one of his texts showing that the Egyptians had taught both the Greeks and barbarians the subject of music. Is
it not obvious that Egyptian music had heavily influenced Greek music?
If this is not enough, the musical system of the Greek Church today, the Octoechos, which most scholars say first originated from the modes and scales
that were used at the time of Pythagoras, had its true origin in Egypt. F.J. Fetis, a western musicologist, states saying the following from his
General Biography of Music Book:
"I have not the least doubt, that his musical notation [used in ecclesiastical music by the modern Greeks] belonged to ancient Egypt. I have
in support of my opinion the resemblance borne by the signs in this notation, erroneously attributed to St. John of Damascus, to those of the demotic
or popular characters of the ancient Egyptians."
The signs of notation attributed to St. John Damascus are those of the Greek Church today, the Octoechos system. M. Fetis later in his book also
concludes thus saying:
"After this detailed analysis of the system of notation employed in the music of the Greek Church, and after comparing its signs with those of
the demotic character in use among the Egyptians, can we for a moment doubt that the invention of this notation is to be ascribed to that ancient
people [the Egyptians], and not to St. John of Damascus."
The Egyptians were Masters of the art of music, in those times. Pythagoras, the Giant of the Greeks, now looked up to as being the philosopher who
developed the theory of music in Greece and for the rest of the Western world today, had borrowed a lot of musical concepts already from the Egyptian
musical system. The Greeks looked up to the Egyptians in the field of music. Thus, it is not surprising to believe that the Egyptians were most
probably the first to have developed the comma system. There influence on the Greeks, are just one of many proofs of this. In the next few posts I
will talk about the Egyptian musical system, and evidences that we have of it today, also proving that the comma and limma system was in use in Egypt.
Soon enough I will tie all this in with Coptic Music. There is just sooo much to talk about.
Stay tuned for more information...
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mikokiko
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Al-Halabi, thanks for understanding man. I don't think I have read anywhere that the comma interval was used in Egypt, but it would make sense, its
traditional Folk music used these intervals. Why would the other Arabic countries use it, while Egypt would have not?
I just do not have proof that they had used the comma interval.
Stay tuned...
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mikokiko
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Doesn't seem like anyone's interested...
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LeeVaris
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Please continue Mikokiko !!!!!
This really is quite fanscinating.
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oudmaker
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No Mikokiko
I am interested and pretty soon I will give you gentlemen another theory about how these intervals being developed. I am working on some numbers. By
the way when I heard those coptic hymes I was realy shocked. They are exactly same kind of music that I study all these years as Turkish music. Than I
realized that how correct is a theory that I have heard long time ago about an explanation of the NATURAL INTERVALS.
Another point that our music being used to treat mentally ill people in some places in Anatolia while Europeans were burning the WITCHES.
Regards to everybody
Dincer
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al-Halabi
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Peter,
I hope we can continue this discussion, which touches on key aspects of the region's musical systems. I have tried to contribute, and I am sure others
will participate or follow the exchanges with interest.
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mikokiko
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O.k., sounds good guys...
I was worried no one was paying attention to this thread. But let me continue...
O.K., so the question arises again, "We know all this information about how the Greeks were heavily influenced by the Egyptians in music, but how do
we know for sure that the Egyptians truly used these comma intervals?"
Well, the answer lies in the instruments that we have preserved from that period of time. Lately, researchers have been able to figure out the scales
that the Egyptians used, through analyzing their instruments. They analysed the holes on wind instruments, the frets on stringed instruments, and the
ratios of the string lengths of the Egyptian harp (called the Ka-Nun). There was found to be a consistency of intervals of commas. They found a
consisteny of 6 different types of intervals, with two others that could be found in rare circumstances.
These eight total different intervals are the following:
4 commas (4/9) - 90.566 cents (known today as the Limma, or Minor Semitone)
5 commas (5/9) - 113.2075 cents (known today as the Apotome, or Major semitone)
6.66 commas (20/27) - 151 cents
8 commas (8/9) - 181.1285 cents (known today as the minor whole tone)
9 commas (1) - 203.7735 cents (knwon today as the major whole tone)
12 commas (1 + 3/9) - 271.698 cents
13 commas (1 + 4/9) (not commonly used) - 294.3395 cents
14 commas (1 + 5/9) (not commonly used) - 316.981 cents
This means that the Egyptians did infact divide the octave into 53 discreet increments, as the Turkish do today. On top of this, each comma, was
divided into three equal parts. This 1/3 of a comma, or 1/27 of the whole tone, was known as the buk-nunu. Which means the mouth of the Baby. If you
speak the Egyptian Dialect, you will see that Buk is the common word for mouth, and that Nunu, is the name we often use for little children. This is
why we find the interval of 151 cents, which is about 6 2/3 commas, or 20 buk-nunus. This means the octave can be furtherly divided into 159
increments. What a difference from the 12 semitone division of the Western octave, and the 24 quartertone division of the modern Arabic octave. This
159 microtone octave is definately the result of the Natural scale, and the need to produce an unlimited variety of sound intervals.
The ancient Egyptians themselves placed soooo much importance on music. It was vital to life, and no event, whether tremendously significant, or very
unsignificant was left without the accompniment of music. Every occasion would be uncomplete without music. Their beliefs were also grounded on their
musical structures. It is amazing to see how the Egyptians connected the structure of their scale with their beliefs!
As mentioned previously, there was a man named Thoth, whom the Egyptians believed to be some god-like man. As Plato describes him to the one who first
discerned the natural sounds. To him also was attributed the discerning of the connection of music with the stars and astronomy. As back then,
astronomy, music, medicine, and all these fields were inseperable. Not in Egypt only, but in Greece also.
Diodorus of Sicily in his first book states the connection of astronomy with music to have first thought of by Thoth:
"It was be Tehuti [Thoth]. according to ancient Egyptians...[who] was the first to observe the orderly arrangement of the stars and the
harmony of the musical sounds and their nature."
Because of these beliefs, the Egyptians placed much importance on the numbers, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9. The Number 9 was significant of the nine realms, the
seven metaphyscial (Heavens), and the two physcial (Twin Earths). This they connected to the nine commas of the whole tone. The number seven
significant of the seven space bodies, the seven days of week, the seven Egyptian vowels, and the seven metaphysical realms. These they connected to
the seven tonal degrees of the diatonic scale, which they knew. They believed that the week began at a high note, and ended at a low one:
Saturn - Saturday (Si)
Jupiter - Sunday (La)
Mars - Monday (Sol)
Sun - Tuesday (Fa)
Venus - Wednesday (Mi)
Mercury - Thursday D (Re)
Moon - Friday - C (Do)
They believed that the movement of the spheres was melodious (change of speed, direction, orbit distance, and size), and that the universe was a
symphony of order.
The number Eight was considered the divine and complete number of Tehuti. This they connected with the eight succesive notes of the octave.
The belief of the two physical earthly realms corresponds to the plagal and authentic modes used by the Egyptians. This is because they believed that
this earth had a twin were each of our unkown twins preside. So the difference between the eigth and ninth realms (the twin worlds), if we are to
speak in musical terms, was the comma.
Thus, by the shifting of any musical whole tone, in any scale eighter higher to 9 commas, or lower to an interval of 8 commas, we change the whole
scale, to a plagal mode of the authentic one.
This is similar to the Oktoechos system that has eight modes, four authentic, and a plagal for each authentic mode.
This brings us to the significance of the number four. There were Three Seasons in the Egyptian Year, and for each Season, four months of 30 days
each. Thus there were 12 months, with 5 days at the end of the year, (or 6 in the leap year), often called the "Little Month." This placed much more
importance on the structure of the scale. And they connected these four months per season to the tetrachord of four notes.
Stay tuned for information on the Structure of the Egyptian Scales...
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al-Halabi
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It is interesting that al-Farabi (10th century) lists all the same intervals you listed for ancient Egyptian music as part of the tone and modal
system of his time, with the exception of the 271 cents interval (which is the augmented second commonly used in the Hijaz mode). These intervals
appear specifically in the fretting he gave for the oud, and also in the tetrachords/pentachords he identified as part of the modal system. Al-Farabi
built his analysis of the tone system on the ancient Greek system, which may explain this remarkable match with the ancient Egyptian system. Today
Turkish makams are based on these very same intervals, with the exception of the 14 commas interval. It's striking that none of the 8 ancient Egyptian
intervals remained unique to ancient Egypt, and that they were all used in the wider region for millennia afterwards, all the way to our day. Amazing
continuities.
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sydney
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My participattion
| Quote: | Originally posted by mikokiko
Doesn't seem like anyone's interested... |
Hey man ... I love this thread and I am sure lots of members here are enjoying it too.
Keep going man. Thanks for explaing in details for us.
Here is a coptic tune called E-aghapi. or E-agapi. I am sure you can tell us all about it in details Miko. I play and you explain 
It is played by Sydney Coptic Trio.
Medhat Bolous - Cello. Medhat is the son of Mr. Magdy Bolous who played his cello with Oum Kolthom.
Andy Hanna - Piano - did not join in this tune.
and myself on the oud.
enjoy
Kind Regards,
------------------
Emad
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mikokiko
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BEAUTIFUL MUSIC!! I love your guys' playing...
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mikokiko
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| Quote: |
"Hey man ... I love this thread and I am sure lots of members here are enjoying it too. Keep going man. Thanks for explaing in details for us.
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No problem man. I love to simplify things for you guys. This is my greatest interest and I love sharing it with others. Rarely do I get this chance,
so I am taking advantage of it.
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oudmaker
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Very nice. It uses exactly same intervals of Turkish music. The difference was on the beat. It seems like the music sentences represent some sort of
USUL but I could not recognize it. I am sure it is not a simple beat. Can somebody explain or comment on the beat please.
Regards
Dincer
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mikokiko
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I am not very familiar with the rhythms used in Coptic Music. About half of the hymns we say, use two native Egyptian instruments known as the Daff
(like the Cymbals) and Torianto (Like the Traingle). Whenever we use these rhythm instruments they are for the sole purpose of maintaining the tempo
and speed during the performance of a hymn. They have nothing to do with the emotions expressed in the hymn, as many people may believe. It has been
said though that they did not originate in the early church. The early church used a variaton of instruments with fixed pitch. I tend to believe that
these percussion instrumetns were not in use in the early church either, as a lot of the time I feel it does not match with the spirit of the hymn. I
also have noticed that people keep adding the Cymbals and Triangle to so many hymns. They can also be rather annoying, when they are loud, and are
being used for the sounds they make themselves (as opposed to be just for keeping the rhythm in complicated hymns, or with large choirs).
Also, the daff and torianto should not be loud and clashing, because they ruin the atmosphere of the church hymn. Generally there are not much
variation in rhythms. The three most common are Ad Libitum, Duple meter, and triple meter.
More to come on the structure of the ancient Egyptian scale...
(I will be tying all this information very soon with Coptic Music)
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mavrothis
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Hi,
This is a great thread man, I've learned a lot and have been inspired to think about a lot of things from reading this. I just wanted to add my own
perspective to this. First of all, I think it is very likely that Pythagoras applied his own research to ideas and tones that were already in use, at
least tones that were very close to what he worked on scientifically. It's very logical to assume that the Ancient Egyptians were very advanced in
music and were aware of and using these tones, at least roughly (there's no way of knowing for sure, this all mostly speculation). There is no record
of anyone before Pythagoras mapping out the natural tones, though the physical evidence found in the instruments shows practical use of the natural
tones, which could mean any of several things:
1. Someone before him did this work (possibly in Egypt), and over time the actual scientific principles of the music were partly forgotten, and
Pythagoras simply rediscovered these findings.
2. Pythagoras applied scientific measurement to tones and musical ideas that were in practice in his day but not studied in as much depth.
3. Pythagoras studied principles of music that were well-defined by others, in his own lifetime and possibly in Egypt, and simply confirmed their
findings with his own research.
Either way, his work is all that remains for us from this part of the world focusing on these naturally occuring tones. This in itself makes it
invaluable, b/c otherwise it would even harder to guess at the sound of ancient music from any part of this region.
Another thing mentioned in this thread was the possibility that Ancient Greeks were descendants of the Egyptians. There have been several attempts to
try and prove this, but each time the theory was shown to have zero credibility, with a basis limited to very weak myths. Most evidence shows that
the Greek tribes, including the Dorian, were from Europe, and their artifacts/architecture don't seem very related to those of the Ancient Egyptians.
The linguistic differences also do not point to such a direct lineage, the Greek alphabet is based on the Phoenician, with a few additions (notably
vowels). If Greeks came from Egypt, why would they abandon their own language/writing system, etc? On pre-Mycenean Greek Crete the architecture
resembles Egyptian styles more, and the older, pre-Mycenean Greek civilization there is believed to possibly have ties to Egypt (again speculation -
the similiarities could have been as easily from trade and influence as they could have been from actual colonization from Egypt).
The last thing I wanted to discuss is what seems to be the attempt to directly tie the Ancient Egyptians and their music to today's Copts. This is a
sensitive subject, I know, as a Greek I often bristle at things that seem to try and lessen my ethnic "legitimacy" which come from all directions,
East and West. However, I think it's fair to point out that the Coptic language contains many elements from Hellenistic Greek. This is from the
influence of Alexander the Great and his successors in Egypt who combined both Egyptian and Greek elements of culture over a very extended period of
time. Therefore, if the language itself cannot be considered free of Greek elements, then neither can any other part of the culture, including music.
This may mean nothing more than that ancient elements of Egyptian music, preserved in Ancient Greek music, were further preserved during the
Hellenistic period of Egypt. But logically, there were probably Greek elements that were separate or evolved also preserved and so it is nearly
impossible to define one from the other using modern Greek or Coptic music. Also missing from this discussion are the Mesopotamian civilizations,
which some believe date back further than the Egyptians. Many of their instruments have also been discovered, and it is quite possible that they, or
even earlier civilizations we don't really know of yet began the "search" for the natural tones.
The world is much older than 8000 years, but we really don't know much about history before then (or even around that cut off point). I'm not trying
to say that this discussion is not valid or important, actually, it is very refreshing and inspiring and points out how much respect and awe the
Ancient Greeks had for Egypt (and rightfully so).
I just want to remind us all that though we should always challenge ourselves and anything that is generally accepted, we should also be sure to know
the difference between speculation/opinion and facts.
Anyway, sorry for the long post, I hope you guys find it relevant.
Take care,
mavrothis
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sydney
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I think you are right Mav.
In the coptic church today we still have lots of coptic hymns that we really sing in coptic and greek then arabic at the same time. The greek langauge
is still used even in our mass today. There are a lot of missing solid information that we can not prove today which makes it very hard to know the
difference between speculation/opinion and facts.
Miko,
Coptic churches all over the world have decons with many different experiences, knowledge and also different levels of music understnding. Some of
them have a very sensitive ears for tempo and some of them got nothing to do with it and should not even touch either the Cymbals the Traingle during
the mass beause they make nothing but noise. Like any musical insturament. If not used by a good player you get noise not music. So my point is
Cymbals and traingles are important and have been in the coptic church for many years - if used properly they give a wonderful flavor the the hymns in
the church.
Mav.
Do you use Cymbals and Traingle in the Greek chruch?
Kind Regards,
------------------
Emad
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mikokiko
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Mavrothis,
I do not completely agreee with everything you have wirtten in your post, but nevertheless, I respect your views and opinions.
Firstly, I'd like to make clear that it is well known fact, that the Coptic language, is widely considered to be the last form of ancient Egyptian. It
consists of the Greek alphabet, however it contains 7 letters that are borrowed from the Egyptian demotic. These 7 letters were borrowed because, not
all the Greek letters could accurately represent the sounds that had to be pronounced in pure Egyptian words. However, i do agree with you that
Coptic, has so many Greek loan words. However, most of these Greek words are words used for the Christian belief. For example, there are two words for
Spirit in Coptic. One being Pi-epnevma, while the other, Pi-nifi. The former being the Greek loan word, and the latter being the original Egyptian.
So, why did they borrow these Greek words? Because they wanted the understanding of these new words to be Christian. The old Egyptian religious words,
such as spirit, and Almighty, were associated with pagan ideas. Thus they wanted to borrow many Greek words, to associate them with the new Christian
understandings.
This is also due to Greek influence. Legend holds, that the first Egyptians preached to in Alexandria, were really Greeks.
I never stated anywhere that the Greeks ancestors were the Egyptians, rather the Dorians' ancestors were the Egyptians. Guess who spread their
alphabet to the Pheonicans? The Egyptians! They are considered to be the ones who established the first well known alphabet.
Secondly, I do well acknowledge that our Coptic church has a huge amount of Greek influence. Many hymns today are infact borrowed from the Byzxantine
Church from the Resurrection and Christmas. And many parts of the liturgy closely resemble the Byzantine musical art. I was going to discuss this
later on during this thread (I will go into more detail about this later on).
Thirdly, my ideas about Pythagoras borrowing a lot of his theory from the Egyptians is backed up by the fact that he himself spent a huge chunk of his
life in Egypt, studying music and the Egyptian mysteries with an Egyptian high priest. The Greeks also have had great connections with the Egyptians
for centuries and centuries, and it is undoubtful that the both the Egyptians and Greeks had been influenced by eachother.
I also, no where stated that the natural tones were first discovered by the Egyptians, but rather it was their belief. Natural intervals are something
intrinsic, i would dare to say. Who here can claim to sing with equal-tempered intervals? I can't for the least. So we need to acknowledge that these
natural tonal intervals are not something that someone invents, discovers, or even develops a system for. For even Western Music before the ninteenth
century used Natural intervals. Equal-temperment is a new Western Modern idea that first started in the late eighteenth century. This influenced so
many other cultures around the world. The Indian raga, the Arabic Maqam, and so many others.
Last but not least, though there are great influences and traces of Greek art in the Coptic Church, I would argue that it is much more of an Egyptian
church that has inherited the Egyptian oriental arts, with influences from various nations (Greek, Hebrew, and Arabic). For example, the Coptic Church
today, still uses the old Egyptian Calendar, with the same name of the months. Its Iconography still retains symbols and art styles identicial to
those of the art found on the temple walls. (Ma'at Law of Balance, Anba Barsoum) The rituals that we perform in church today have so many traces with
the rituals of Pagan Egypt. Things even as common as names of Coptic saints, such as Mena, have Pharaonic roots.
So, undoubtly our Church is much more Egyptian than anything else.
Sorry for the delay for the information on Egyptian scale, it will be coming soon
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Oudist
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Mikokiko,
What does "Ka-Nun" mean in Ancient Egyptian? I understand that "Ka" is spirit...
Oudist.
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mar-mar
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if i have correct understanding, kanun is not an ancient Egyptian word but an Arabic word which means "the law." great work mikokiko once again. btw,
i'm miamimarmar on coptichymns.net 
mar-mar
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