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Author: Subject: how to practice taqsims
oudplayer
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thumbup.gif posted on 8-7-2006 at 04:22 PM
how to practice taqsims


hey all
i have a problom when it comes down to taqsims alot.
i am not sure "the rules of them"
and it hard to go back and forth and get soe thign that sounds good .
does anyone have any suggestions on teckneques that they can show me or tell me that would be great .
i know alot of makams but its still hard to put it all togeather
thx sammy
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Hatem_Afandi
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[*] posted on 8-7-2006 at 04:45 PM


Hi Sammy,
Excellent question my friend. It means that you are on the right track!

As a first step, I do suggest that you get this book by Cameron Powers:
http://www.musicalmissions.com/teachingCDs.html
It contains all the information you need to know about the Arabic maqams and how to move from one scale to another when performing improvisations.

Second, follow the folowing instructions emailed to me by our dear friend, the talented Mabrothis. He was decent enough to take the time and go thru some amazing details that helped me a lot.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Hatem,

Thanks for contacting me. Below I have written you a very long reply. If I ever sound pompous or annoying, please don't hold it against me. It's just the way I talk. I feel very strongly about these things you've asked about, just as you do I'm sure. I don't believe I am very far in my studies of this music or the oud, but I've had the good fortune to have some great players give me valuable instruction, so I will try and pass on their advice to you too. :)

Thanks also for trying to credit me with something, but you know the truth is you have done the work, and so you deserve all the credit for any progress you have made. :)

My friend, as with any type of exercise, you need to allow your muscles time to rest and recuperate. It is usually in the time of rest that the muscles really become stronger and more durable. The advice from udi Yurdal Tokcan was to take about an hour or so a day of intense exercises (with short breaks throughout) but leaving the rest of the practice time for learning repertoire, studying the makams and practicing taksim.

So, my advice is, pick 3-5 very good exercises that you feel work both your left and right hand (some concentrate on one, others on the other, etc), and rotate to different exercises every day so you are doing something a little different. Sometimes we keep one or two exercises as our core ones, and use them everyday, and alternate the other ones for variety.

But like you said, if you feel very tired or if you are feeling strange pain (more than just some good muscle soreness) then you need to take a few days off. That's for sure. Don't make playing the oud a chore, always keep it as a pleasure in your life. :)

Always listen to yourself more than to others, really examine what you are doing and WHY YOU PLAY OUD. Don't let me or anyone boss you around, you know? Always make playing oud something for YOU, and that way it will never be spoiled by anything.

As for bringing your taksim making skills even with your agility and picking skills, that is the toughest thing and I am also struggling very hard with this (along with the technical aspects - Yurdal showed us his technique for picking and it is very different from what I was doing up until now, so I'm back to the beginning again...).

There are two basic elements here for taksim; intonation of the notes, and seyir, or the path that a makam follows. Also there is the element of tasteful modulation, and performance techniques which really facilitate a true "conversation" with your listeners. So, I guess there are 4 major components:

1. INTONATION
2. SEYIR
3. TASTEFUL MODULATION
4. PERFORMANCE DYNAMICS

Yurdal Tokcan and Goksel Baktagir taught us some important things about intonation in Ottoman Classical music this summer at the seminars in Crete. These really cannot be picked up from any book or sheet music. You need to hear and study examples you can hear, from recordings and teachers. In Ottoman music I think it is a little more complex than in Arabic, but I'm sure the deeper you get into Arabic music, the more they are alike in that notes shift according to the direction you are moving melodically. I'm not that well-versed in Arabic music so I can't say for sure.

Seyir, or the makam's path, can be learned studying old classical Saz Semai and Peshrev examples. For example, Ushak, Beyati, Huseyni, Muhayyer, and Neva all have almost the exact scale structure. But, each one has a very unique modal path and focal notes. I believe that if we take time to concentrate on one makam, for let's say, 3 months or so, then we can have a strong foundation in the way a makam moves (and also to good possible modulations).

For modulations, I think listening to taksims is good, but really learning old classical pieces is the best thing. The old composers were very advanced and original in thinking, and very emotional. We need to study them, and then, when we have a good traditional basis in our playing, we can add original things which might not sound traditional, but contain the traditional creativity that the old composers had. Know what I mean?

Performance dynamics sometimes are the hardest things to tackle, b/c they require true focus and concentration on WHAT WE ARE PLAYING, and HOW WE ARE PLAYING IT. But, that is really why we play and practice so much. Because we want to play what we are hearing in our minds, not just what our hands have become accustomed to doing out of habit. And, if we find that we are just playing and not allowing ourselves to hear what our minds want, then we are just recycling old ideas and not COMPOSING, which is what a taksim is supposed to be. Dr. Munir N. Beken gave me some great advice in a lesson earlier this summer. Basically, don't be a slave to the makam(s) you are playing. Remember you are playing a taksim, which is a spontaneous composition, not simply a makam.

Some more pointers:

1. Vary the length of each taksim section.
- Generally, the taksim has 3 or 4 sections. All the sections shouldn't be the same length, this way you are surprising the audience and forcing yourself to think in a more original way.

2. Don't always stress the cliche changes that everyone has done. Be original, and choose notes to stress (along with the dominant notes) that will lead to interesting modulations and digressions. It's hard to explain, and I'm only beginning to try and grasp this, but you must show both your knowledge of the tradition, and also your own personality and originality at the same time. This needs years of work I think, at least for me.

After hearing me make a few attempts at taksim in different makams, Dr. Beken gave me this and other advice and told me, "If in 2 or 3 years you are playing on stage and know I am in the audience, I want you to be able to converse with me through your oud. These details are what separate the great performers from the good performers." He didn't mean that I am good, I have many weaknesses that I need to tackle, but he was saying that to really master your instrument, you have to absorb and then transcend the tradition, so you can move freely within it and yet be yourself at all times.

3. Consciously differentiate your picking style in the climax of the taksim from the introduction and middle parts of the taksim. If you begin with a more mellow picking style which is a little closer to the main soundhole, begin your climax (meyan) with a more aggressive picking style, perhaps closer to the bridge, but necessarily so. Mix up your picking patterns, and use dynamics (soft...loud...soft) etc throughout the taksim. Use breaks/pauses to really enunciate your melodic sentences, and remember that you must be thinking/feeling clearly to truly communicate with the instrument. We are trying to reach a higher feeling and understanding when we perform, and we can't do that if we're tipsy from wine, playing "automatically", or preoccupied with other thoughts.

My friend, I hope I haven't given you a headache with all these things. Hopefully you are inspired by the advice these great players have given me. These are long term issues we need to work on, but they are definitely worth it.

I hope you are well,

mavrothis
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Third step:
Let us all know how you progressed 3 to 4 months later.;)

Good luck & best regards,

Hatem
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oudplayer
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[*] posted on 8-7-2006 at 05:02 PM


hey hatem
thx for the everything i think i am goin to go with this book and try to learn as much as i can i guess i cant be a amazing player right away it will take time but i wanna make this my special instrument that people go up to me what is that and i will be like just listen "if you know what i mean "?
Mav thank for yr words that u gave hatem and i really learned alot from it
hatem thx again bro
thx sammy
i iwll let you know how i am standing I"h {inshallah} in the future
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[*] posted on 8-7-2006 at 05:18 PM


Hi Sammy,
I think this is a great topic, i really feel like i'm in the same boat. typically i know how some makams start out, how to give the tastes of the makams in the beginning. and then i get a little lost.

The makam i'm studying by the way is Turkish makam. I don't know anything about Arabic maqam so, anything i write, just know where I'm coming from...hopefully stuff can apply to anyone. and forgive me if i'm writing things you already know.

there's one thing that you wrote that struck me...

Quote:
Originally posted by oudplayer
i know alot of makams but its still hard to put it all togeather


hmm ok. the thing is, "makam" and "taksim" are, at the essence, synonymous with one another. maybe what you are saying here is that you know a lot of rough scales...but that's not makams. it's not enough to just know the scale of Rast for example. you have to know the makam.

makam = scale + seyir
without the seyir, there is no makam, only a scale

this is another way of me saying that, if someone is having questions about playing taksims, then they don't really know the makam in the first place.

so first learn the seyir. you get that very typically from Hane 1 + teslim of pesrevs. now check out another pesrev in the same makam. notice the similarities. that's your seyir. now listen to 10 different musicians playing taksim of the same makam, up to the point where the seyir is finished, before the meyan if they play one. again, notice the similarities. take good good note of all the common tastes and flavors that they use. must be very similar to the pesrevs. there's more repetoire to study, bestes, sarkilar, ayins, etc...so much that will help you. you will get the makam from these studies.

now comes the practicing part to help with taksim...one thing to try is to just imitate what these people are doing in their taksims. like, go ahead and just learn one of them note for note. play it and play it and play it and own it. after 2 days or 2 weeks or 7 months or 5 years, whatever it takes...at this point, now that you've owned it, you're probably able to play a taksim, something of your own, that gives the makam clearly, something original from you.

that is a lot to chew on right there, it's a big big task. at least it is for me...man i gotta live up to all of that now. and i have so many other ideas to share but maybe later.

just one thing to keep in mind. the more i learn about the great Turkish classical musicians of the later part of the 20th Century, it seems that their three best friends were: the tape recorder, the play button, and the rewind button. these people have insatiable appetites for listening. Necati Çelik...listened so so much and played note for note some taksims by Cinuçen Tanrikorur. he's telling me to do this the whole time, learn taksims, immitate.

ugh...ok, time for me to practice...

adam
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[*] posted on 8-7-2006 at 06:07 PM


Ah Mav's words above are great.

just one more thing, find the musicians to listen to that play the makams very clearly.

I'm finding lately that the yayli tanbur master Fahrettin Cimenli is about as clear as it gets. it's amazing...feels so effortless what he does. he gives you the seyir so loud and clear. and his modulations are equally clear. you can really follow a 10 minute taksim of his and know where he's going the whole time.
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[*] posted on 8-7-2006 at 06:33 PM


Thanks for the posts guys. Coming from a western music background I have more trouble with seyir than anything else. It seems so 'mystifying' when you first begin to study it. I am doing a lot of listening and trying to pick up on things but if you know of any articles I can look up let me know.
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[*] posted on 8-9-2006 at 06:36 AM


This is a GREAT thread. For a novice like myself, the information is really appreciated - I love Middle Eastern music, but don´t "understand" it in a way that would enable myself to produce improvised music myself.

I liked what adamgood wrote here:
"just one thing to keep in mind. the more i learn about the great Turkish classical musicians of the later part of the 20th Century, it seems that their three best friends were: the tape recorder, the play button, and the rewind button. these people have insatiable appetites for listening. Necati Çelik...listened so so much and played note for note some taksims by Cinuçen Tanrikorur. he's telling me to do this the whole time, learn taksims, immitate."

The very same idea is put very beautifully by Necdet Yasar in the booklet for double CD album by Neyzen Niyazi Sayin and Tanburi Necdet Yasar (Kalan Music 2006; beautiful album I got just a few days ago, and I was truly happy that the 50+ pages book is FULLY bilingual!). I´d like to quote here:

"Neyzen Niyazi Sayin and I listened to Cemil Bey´s records for years with unflagging interest; we played and listened to the details of every record of his, over and over, never tiring of it. In nearly every one of his recordings, we discovered amazing things, a beauty difficult to express in words, and we shared the unequalled joy that music gave us. I remember one day at my house, as we were listening to Cemil´s saba taksim on kemence, Cemil hit one note and Niyazi shouted out from excitement... We shared with each other the impressions we got from his taksims and the lessons we extracted from his performances of instrumental works. My friend Niyazi and I practically turned that great musician´s records into drills. The beauty of those days spent with Tanburi Cemil Bey and those evenings that stretched on until dawn, is one of the unforgettable memories of my life as artist."

No wonder artists who feel so deeply about their music, can express similar beauty in their own playing.
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[*] posted on 8-9-2006 at 12:32 PM


Really interesting thread folks. So what is the difference between Turkish (Armenian) and Arabic modes (apart from the higher tuning) and if so is there a similar source to the cds suggested to learn the basic scales, modes, modulations etc.

Your wisdom on this is keenly anticipated

Leon
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[*] posted on 8-13-2006 at 02:21 AM


these cd's sounds like they're just what's needed ...

are the maqam of the middle east similar in structure to the tab' (pl. tubu') of andalusia - discussed in the "maluf 18, al-rizqi# uaddaáuni" thread over on "oudsoudsouds" - could their relation be described as something similar to regional dialects of the same language?

- bill
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[*] posted on 8-13-2006 at 04:17 AM


What Adamgood describes in his post is identical to the process involved with learning to improvise in jazz. Brian can probably vouch for or add to it as well. Most of us spend thr first several years listening to specific artists and recordings and in most cases transcribing improvised solos from recordings and learning to play them note for note, copying every nuance of time feel and articulation. The other aspect of this is to take individual phrases that you like the sound of and learn these. In the case of jazz, we learn these in different keys, registers etc., and then change them rhythmically, adding or subtracting notes etc., all to the end of developing a vocabulary that can be used in a personal way in an improvised setting. In spite of all the theory and technique involved, it really is an aural tradition. Having said all this, I am at the beginning stages of this process when it comes to playing the oud.
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[*] posted on 8-13-2006 at 04:51 AM


As an afterthought to my last post: There are 3 or 4 recordings that I suggest to my jazz guitar students that I feel are important to really know well. These are recordings that are to be studied and listened to over a period of years that represent essential concepts of jazz guitar playing. I wonder, if we had to choose 3 or 4 oud recordings what they would be. These should not be simply favorites, but recordings that represent and define the essential concepts, vocabulary etc. of modern oud playing. For example, I suspect that there must be a recording of Farid that is essential to know. The problem with this is that we all have our favorite recordings and artists, and the list becomes very long. Perhaps I am being unreasonable to suggest this, but it could be fun and educational at the very least. So, here are the guide lines for suggesting 4 essential oud recordings for study:
[1] it must be a solo oud recording
[2] the recording must represent a particular concept that is important to the oud playing tradition (You must say what is important about this particular recording. For example, this recording....is important because it established a unique way of developing taqseem that set a standard for all oud players. Or, this recording....is important because of the innovation in right hand technique etc.)
[3] It is generally accepted that a particular recording or artist defines a particular style better than any other. For example, this recording....defines the Egyptian style, the Iraqi style or Syrian style etc. better than any other)

So, there you have it; 4 desert island solo oud recordings. Can we do it?
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[*] posted on 8-14-2006 at 05:36 PM


There seems to be a large number of jazz players on here. Bassist here :buttrock:
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[*] posted on 8-17-2006 at 10:41 AM


Someone said that jazz musicians are like coat hangers. How often do we buy them?

Roy
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