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journeyman
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sound affected by type of wood in fingerboard
Recently someone suggested to me that the type of wood used in a fingerboard had a large effect on the sound of any stringed instrument. Does anyone
have any experience comparing rosewood to ebony fingerboards on ouds? It would be difficult to tell as all ouds have their own sound, but perhaps
someone has changed fingerboards on an existing oud and would like to comment on this.
Roy
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Oudism
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Hi Roy,
Interesting ! How the fingerboard affects the sound? what I know (with my little knowlegde) is that strings generate frequencies. These frequencies
are amplified by the bowl and projected into the soundboard. I don't see how the fingerboard can affect the sound. Could you tell more?
Odsm
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journeyman
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Well I don't really know if it is even the case. The person who told me this plays the string bass. He seemed to be sure of this opinion so I thought
I'd ask if anyone else has anything to say about it. I will be having an oud built soon so am gathering any information that I can in an attempt to
learn more about the oud's sound properties.
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SamirCanada
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IMO..
it doesnt affect it.
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Brian Prunka
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I think it does have a significant effect. While I haven't replaced a fingerboard on an instrument to compare, ebony fingerboards seem to have a more
focused attack and more presence in the sound, while rosewood is slightly warmer but more diffuse sound. Ebony also seems to help sustain. I think
it is primarily due to the hardness of the wood (and how porous it is). I definitely favor ebony fingerboards, though there are so many different
kinds of rosewood that it's impossible to generalize. I have played nearly identical guitars with ebony and rosewood fingerboards, and there is a
distinct difference (and it should matter even less on guitars, since they have frets).
The string is vibrating against the wood where you hold it down, so I don't see how it wouldn't affect it.
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Oudism
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Hey Brian
If I understand you correctly, ebony fingerboard is better for sustained sound ?
Theorically, If you play on 2 guitars without holding down the string, free string, i guess the sound would be similar in both ebony or Rosewood
fingerboard. No?
| Quote: | Originally posted by Brian Prunka
The string is vibrating against the wood where you hold it down, so I don't see how it wouldn't affect it. |
It make sense what you say, but I am still thinking about it
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Johnny_Be_Oud
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Well, I agree with Brian. Even on an electric guitar that has frets it makes a difference whether the neck is ebony, maple, or rosewood.
When your note is coming right off of the wood, as on an oud, is has to impact the sound.
I'm not sure that qualifying the difference is as important as trying it to see what you like in terms of tone, sustain, and feel, though.
The important thing to remember is that all the elements of how the instrument is constructed are going to work together, to make what is hopefully
that lovely sound you're looking for.
cheers,
John
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SamirCanada
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You cant make the comparison in this way.
taking two almost identical guitars doesn't determine anything.
The only way to know is to change the fingerboard from ebony to rosewood on the same oud and see if it affects it.
I dont think it makes a noticeable difference from my very short experience.
I would think maybe the specie of neck wood and its thickness would be a bigger factor of influence on the sound. Depending on if the wood absorbs the
sound vibrations or not.
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dubai244
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Hi Guys,
Let me put it in this way: The fingerboard does not affect the sound of the oud in sense of Tone and Volume, wether you have rose fingerboard or ebony
fingerboard. But it does affect the clarity of the tones when you press on the fingerboard, let me exlain how?!
if you dont have straight, clean, smoothened fingerboard (Rose, Ebony .....etc), all the tones which generated by press on the fingerboard will
generate "buzzing" sounds or not clear tones.
The sound of the oud is purely generated by the sound board of the oud. Fingerboard has nothing to do with sound board.
Thanks
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omazuz
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And what about polyester fingerboard? Amin Hadad used to decorate the fingerboard with shels and above the decoration to put polyester.
http://www.yad2.co.il/Yad2/ViewImage.php?CatID=3&SubCatID=0&...
If u open this site u might see an example.
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Greg
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One of my guitars is a Fender American Telecaster with a maple fretboard. I have played other Teles with the same pickups and electronics, but with a
Rosewood fretboard. In my opinion, there is a noticeable difference. The maple gives a crisper and brighter sound. It therefore follows that the
fingerboard wood on an oud probably does have an effect on the sound.
My .02 cents worth 
Regards,
Greg
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eliot
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| Quote: | Originally posted by dubai244
Hi Guys,
Let me put it in this way: The fingerboard does not affect the sound of the oud in sense of Tone and Volume, wether you have rose fingerboard or ebony
fingerboard. But it does affect the clarity of the tones when you press on the fingerboard, let me exlain how?!
if you dont have straight, clean, smoothened fingerboard (Rose, Ebony .....etc), all the tones which generated by press on the fingerboard will
generate "buzzing" sounds or not clear tones.
The sound of the oud is purely generated by the sound board of the oud. Fingerboard has nothing to do with sound board.
Thanks |
I believe this is wrong for two reasons:
1) some of the sound of the oud is the vibration of the strings themselves and not the soundboard. If you tie the strings at the bridge even slightly
differently, the sound of each string changes (an acoustic phenomenon which is amplified by the soundboard). If you don't have callouses on your
fingers and finger notes, likewise the sound is different than if you do have harder callouses. Therefore, the combination of finger and soundboard
could affect the string vibrational timbre in significant ways.
2) If you hold your oud away from your chest, so that the back of the oud is only in contact with air, the tone from the oud is dramatically different
than if you are holding the oud with it touching your chest and stomach. In particular, bass and low mid frequencies are affected most prominently.
How does the body of the oud come to attain a resonance? From the two points of contact the body has with the strings: the bridge and the
finger/fingerboard. Another aspect which has nothing to do with the soundboard...
The soundboard doesn't generate any sound... the sound is only generated by a striking of the string...
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dubai244
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Hi Eliot,
Thanks for the informations. About the chest attaching to oud body, you are right about that. Actually, Naseer shamma mentioned that before in the one
of his TV interviews. Naseer prefer that the player should be thin person so he can feel the vibration of the oud better than fat person (fat person
like myself ) .....
But i dont agree with you regarding the sound board and here is why?. I did experiment in one of my cheap oud. I have a oud that the sound getting
cut-off for some reason and this oud does not has eacho at all. I changed the strings and still same problem. At same time i read an article about
Brace Vibration of the sound board in the net. so what i did, i broke one of the brace of the sound board of that oud. After that the sound got much
better. it is as if like that brace was holding the sound of the oud. The sound got loud and eachoy ... even the tones got different.
The sound of the oud is generated by the sound board. and to be more specific, it is generated by the braces which are under the sound board.
"FingerBoard" is doesn't generate any sound, i agree but it does affect the sound of the oud in-directly.
Thanks
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Peyman
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You guys should look at the design of kasha guitars. Like Samir said, the neck itself affects the sound. The neck should not absorb the energy
generated by the strings. The fingerboard is part of this equation. Obviously, fingerboards are usually made out of tough material so the strings
don't dig a groove into them(also preferably dark material so they don't get dirty over time).
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Dr. Oud
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The tone quality of an electric guitar is affected by the wood of the body, but with each piece of wood being different, different guitars have
different tonal characteristics, even with the "same electronics. Different woods have different frequency responses as well. While the string creates
the primary vibration, the pickups can transmit differently due to minute differences in height, windings, tone settings, etc. The body will add
resonance that affects the duration of the string's vibration, but the tonal characteristics are mostly due to the electronics used and mostly by
their settings. It's pretty hard to duplicate exactly the settings from one guitar to the next, so comparison between guitars is rather ambiguous.
While the string produces the fundamental sound wave, the soundboard adds harmonics that give the tone it's color. Only a lyre is a purely string
produced sound, even harps have soundboards. The braces determine resonant frequency enhancements as they create node points in the vibration of the
soundboard. The body adds reflective waves of the lower frequencies, and the entire instrument vibrates adding something to the overall sound.
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Oudism
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so Dr Oud, the fingerboard has little effect on the sound?
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Brian Prunka
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Hey Oudism, I think you got what I was saying. If you're playing an open string, then the fingerboard wouldn't affect the sound. And if you're
fingering a note, the nut doesn't affect the sound.
Have you ever heard a sarod? a metal fingerboard obviously changes the sound. it seems pretty clear that different kinds of woods also change the
sound, though it's more subtle.
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Oudism
so Dr Oud, the fingerboard has little effect on the sound? |
I'm not convinced that it does. None of the examples listed here are true comparisons of fingerboard material alone. I mean after all the sarod is a
skin face, carved body with sympathetic strings, etc. I believe that the metallic fb is to allow the smooth sliding technique used to play in the
traditional Indian style. The Afghan rebab has a similar construction, skin face, carved body, and sounds very similar, except the neck is not
metallic, so?
My point is that the innumerable variable affects of structure and materials from one instrument to another negate any comparison of the affects of
one component. dig?
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Brian Prunka
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According to your logic, Doc, then there's no way to know if there's a difference between any woods in any aspect of an instrument, since there are
too many factors and no two pieces of wood are the same.
There are other ways to compare the effects of various woods on instruments . . . listening to a large number of instruments with characteristic X and
a large number of instruments with characteristic Y, you could reasonably discern some tonal characteristic shared by all of the former and a
different characteristic shared by the latter. It could then be logically inferred that there is a causal relationship. True this is inductive
rather than deductive reasoning, but in a situation where as you admit, deductive reasoning is impossible, inductive reasoning seems admissible.
I'm not saying for certain that fingerboard wood has a big effect on sound, but I believe I have a legitimate opinion that it does, based on my
experience.
Also, I think that the burden of proof lies with the folks who think it doesn't affect the sound, since any part of the instrument in direct contact
with the string should be presumed to affect the sound IMO. The risha material affects the sound, no? The nut?
I think that the example of guitars is a good one; a factory-produced acoustic guitar will have as little variability as is probably possible to
achieve on an acoustic instrument. The lacquer on the face helps diminish the contribution of the soundboard, and the presence of frets helps reduce
the effect of the fingerboard. And yet, a difference is still usually apparent.
Maybe someone should do tests with an oscilloscope and just a string and fingerboard. would be interesting . . . we could place bets to make it more
interesting, even
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journeyman
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Well, this is all very interesting. I of course have no strong opinion, but to me Doc, the sarod sounds very different than the rebab and it seems the
main difference is the fingerboard. The sarod has much more sustain. (and it goes to 11 too) having said that, I do realize that there are other
differences. Perhaps the best way answer this question would be to take an oud that one is familiar with and change the fingerboard to do a
comparison. Doc I'm sure you have nothing better to do with your time.  )
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Peyman
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Just to add, sarods have metallic strings and robabs have nylon. Also robabs have deeper bodies and are usually fretted with 5 frets.
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OudandTabla
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Hi,
This is my first post- what a wonderful resource- I'm so glad this forum is here!
I feel qualified to respond to this, as I replaced the fingerboard last year on my main performance Oud. Not a top-quality Oud, the fingerboard was a
rather soft unidentfied wood dyed black. As I play very often, some strings had worn into the wood. There was dampened tone, some buzzing, and overall
uncomfortable playability.
So I replaced it with some macassar ebony, and boy what a difference! More crisp tone, no buzzing or dampening. The way I understand it, when you
finger an unfretted instrument, your finger and fingerboard function together as the nut (or one stopped end of the string). In much the same way that
a bone nut has a clearer tone than a cheap plastic one, a harder wood such as ebony or rosewood will give better crisp tone than a softer wood such as
mahogany or cherry. I can't comment on the difference between R.W. and ebony, but I can say from my experience that using the hardest wood you can
find has a big impact.
The other way to put this comes from a great book on guitar construction- in a musical instrument, there are two classes of wood- tone emitters and
tone transmitters. Both affect the sound, although some more minutely. The fingerboard is a transmitter- the density and smoothness of this piece
affect the sound, but it does not emit any sound in itself. The soundboard is obviously the biggest tone emitter.
Thanks for this wonderful resource!!!
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Dr. Oud
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Now there's a good comparison, now we're talking about density, not necessarily wood species. Some rosewood compares in density with some ebony, so my
position remains, altered by this new perspective. Density or hardness matters, yes, wood species - I'm still not convinced. Comparison to factory
made guitars is a stretch as guitars are much more robust in construction, especially steel stringed, and it's easier to achieve a more uniform
result. Ouds, are very delicate structurally, such that the insrtument is operating at or near the boundary of it's structural limits, and as
mathematicians will tell you, boundary conditions are not predictable.
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journeyman
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Well yes, this makes perfect sense; density, not species. I was under the assumption that rosewood is generally less dense than ebony. I forgot that
some rosewood is also very dense, so my assumption needs to be modified. In the past I have gone from a rosewood bridge to an ebony bridge on an
archtop guitar, and, all differences to the oud aside, the sound was much better. It had more overtones and a warmer top end. The bridge would fall
under the category of transmitter.
I'd like to find out what types of rosewood have the most density.
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Greg
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dr. Oud
Now there's a good comparison, now we're talking about density, not necessarily wood species. Some rosewood compares in density with some ebony, so my
position remains, altered by this new perspective. Density or hardness matters, yes, wood species - I'm still not convinced. [snip]
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Oh, density, not species ...... I see! .... I thought we were talking about wood colour and smell being the factors affecting tone ..... 
(sorry Richard, coudn't help myself )
Here is a chart showing wood densities by species:
http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_wood.htm
Unfortunately, Rosewood is not shown. I notice though that Maple is up there amongst the denser ones.
Interesting also to compare Spruce and Red Cedar (for soundboards).
Regards,
Greg
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