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Edward Powell
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...but where do we hear sources of ORIGINAL IRAQI MAQAMAT??
of course we know that TARGAN opened the oud school in Bagdad in 1938 and from then on taught Turk makam and style. . .
Did the iraqi maqam survive at all?
If yes, I would be super interested to know and hear something about this.
(this is something I was hoping to discuss with Naseer while here, but he always seems too busy and preoccupied to settle down to a converstion - so
gave up on this idea - - - and furthermore, I would question his experience with the ORIGINAL iraqi makam because he learned from the Targan school
and has seemed to Westernise thing himself quite a bit. I have all of Naseer's cds on mp3 and once in a while brouse thru them hoping to find
something that might resemble the old maqamat, but I never seem to be able to find that in his works. . . .)
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Masel
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Those two links I gave ARE original iraqi maqam. The description of the video is very useful. Yusuf Omar learned from Mohammad alQubanji who was
considered one of the best singers of his generation. Iraqi maqam has existed for hundreds of years, it was not as far as I know taught in the Targan
school but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know why you have this insistance on claiming that arabic music came from turkey when clearly it is not the case
(though they influenced eachother).
The videos I posted are not a song or composition in maqam araybun, they ARE maqam araybun, similar to how persian music works. Turkish and other arab
music has nothing like this, this is something unique to persia, iraq, azerbaijan and a few other countries in that area (with regional differences).
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Edward Powell
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Thanks so much!
unfortunately my laptop bit it again so i cant listen to these clips but will get to it as soon as i can.
Whatever gave you the impression that I am insisting that Arab music comes from Turkey? ...obviously Arab music existed long before there was
significant influence from that land which we now know as Turkey.
However, it seem to me that the currently used maqam system - and the current Arab version of it is in large part something which the Ottomans
developed and exported.
Of course it has been pointed out that a lot of music was brought to "Turkey" from "Persia" - but it is clear that in the Ottoman time this music
developed into something uniquely it's own [as Arab music has also absorbed a multitude of influences- the latest one being Western music, and
previous to that Ottoman --- and developed something uniquely it's own]
Mainly I would really like to stress is that I am really not trying to push my opinions - in fact I am really HOPING that someone can convince me
somehow that some uniquely truly ARAB MAQAMAT actually exist! IF ANYONE KNOWS OF ANY - PLEASE SPEAK UP!!!
So in fact I am very ignorant, all I have seen is that the maqams in Arab music seem to be Arabised versions of Ottoman makams (which might have been
imported from Persia).
Yes, in my theory books I notice some arab maqams that I have never encountered in the Ottoman repertoire, I mentioned them earlier. . . maqamat
like NAIRUZ, SIKAH BALADI , etc... BUT WHERE ARE THE COMPOSITIONS IN THESE MAQAMAT?
I actually came to Egypt hoping to find a unique and separate form of maqam, but what I found seems to be an Arab version of the Ottoman one. I still
hope someone can convince me otherwise, but it hasn't happened yet - - - that was the point of starting this thread.
And, in the process, now of understanding in fact how important the role of Ottoman music truly was in influencing Arab and oud music, I feel that
Ottoman music ought to recognised as such.
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Christian1095
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Edward,
Is it possible that over a 8000 years of human habitation, the people of the region have a system of music that is similar from one end of the middle
east to the other? Is it possible that this was in place before someone decided to write down what they were hearing?
I would also say that music has NOTHING to do with playing notes/scales/maqqam/etc... but everything to do with how it conveys emotion. The structure
is just a way for us to try to understand something that is so much bigger than us that we can never get the whole picture... and at the end of the
day, our work is judged by how it sounds, not how it's constructed.
Chris Walters
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Edward Powell
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Hi Chris
You make very good points and I agree with what you say -
Some of you maybe wondering why do I seem to be hanging on this topic --- probably I should relate a bit of my own experience to shed some light on
this.
The first oud I ever heard was Arab oud and I just fell madly in love with it. I later heard some Turkish oud and also loved that.... Then some
Iraqi and loved it also.... It all seemed so wonderful to me, but I had no clue how to go about learning it.
From the information that was available it simply seemed (and generally still does, on the surface of things) like oud maqam art is essentially an
Arab art form which has spread somewhat outside of the Arab world to places like Turkey and Sudan, but that the Arab world is the center of it all.
So, with this knowledge I set out to decide where to go and learn oud. . . so WHERE TO GO? Obviously an Arab country it seemed. At that time Egypt
was too dangerous so I narrowed it down to Morocco and Turkey. I really assumed that either Morocco or Turkey would be equally good places to learn
oud, but neither of these would be a good as Cairo itself.
When I got to Morocco I was pretty disappointed to find out that there was really very little going on there in terms of classical oud playing. There
was a lot of other great music, but not much oud music.
Many years later I had a chance to go to Crete and spend three months at Ross Daly's music center there --- the first thing everyone there asked me
was; "what instrument do you play?" ...the second question they all asked me was "Arab or Turkish oud?"
I was amazed by this question, and especially that EVERYONE asked me this same question.
All the players there including Ross played in Turkish style, and I could recognise the difference by all the listening I had done.
Up until this time, I had not really made great progress in understanding how to really play in makam.... all I had been able to summise is that
there are these "scales", and then you modulate to other scales, and something like this - - - I really didn't UNDERSTAND it.
There on Crete I got some lessons in Turkish makam and had plenty of long talks with Ross. For the first time playing in makam started to make sense.
The Ottoman system really seemed to make sense and shed a lot of light on what is going on - and what needs to be considered in order to play
something that will resemble middleeastern musical style.
At this point I still could not decide which to focus on: Arab or Ottoman makam learning..... I applied for a grant to study with naseer shamma but
didn't get it - - - instead went back again to Crete and studied some more of the Ottoman system. At that time there were no teachers there but
luckily I found a few books written in Turkish and plenty of recordings in Ross's collection.... I spent 2 months totally alone analysing those
recordings and comparing them to the books - - as well as talking to some makam players occationally passing thru.
After that I got a grant to study with necati celik for 6 month in istanbul...
Being in istanbul totally blew my mind - - - the place seemed to be crawling with great oud players - many of which were just young guys! I was quite
shocked by the tremendously high level of oud playing and at how knowledgable and sensative they all are. These players have a very deep knowledge of
makam and classical repertoire.
It really made me wonder how I could have ever considered that Turkey and Morocco could be considered equally worthwhile places to study classical
oud! But how is a beginning oud player from the West supposed to know this??! We in the West get the impression that classical oud playing is in its
most developed form in the Arab world.... and Morocco is well part of the Arab world and otherwise well known for being an extremely musical country
-which it is!
I only have to say that I am REALLY glad that I met Ross who indirectly pointed me in the direction of Ottoman music for gaining a good understanding
of the way of makam. Without getting turned on the Istanbul scene I really don't know where my oud playing would still be at today.
Now coming down here to Cairo I still really imagined that I would encounter practically a next Istanbul in terms of multitudes of great oud players,
except that they would be playing rather in Arabic style. Well, unless they are all hiding somewhere still unknown to me, this unfortunately has not
exactly happened that way.
The biggest oud highlight of my trip here is when Joseph Tawadros (from Australia) come to visit me and in just a couple of short meetings made my
whole trip down here worthwhile. . . . of course I am really super glad I came here, this in not the point of what I am saying. I also don't want
to debate about who should get the credit for developing oud art music - - -
The only point I would like to make, and from my own experience is that in the world of information available today to unaware beginning potential oud
players in the West, there is not much way to know how great an oud center Istanbul is. From the info available it appears that Turkey is on the
sidelines of makam and oud music ---- I apologise if I appear to claim that Turkey is the center and the original..... this is clearly inaccurate and
false- - - - however I wish that at the time that I was starting out I could have know what a great scene there is in istanbul and how intelligible
and understandable (for Westerners) is the Ottoman system for teaching makam.
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katakofka
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Ed
There is an efficient system in Turkey to produce quality instrument players. Yordal and the best players in Turkey teach in the ITU. Have you seen
those trio oud players of the group" 3edm"? the 3 of them studied in the ITU and many others I assume.
Where are the best players in Egypt and are they teaching? is there any national institute in which a student musician is encouraged to enter? Beit
el oud is not a reflection of the Egyptian style on oud as we all agree on that.
Syria is a better place than Egypt in my view to get a clear idea about arabic oud playing. Although there is a Turkish influence in syria (north of
syria mainly) however oud players there (Alepo and Damas) are much more traditional as compared to what you find in Egypt where the influence of
Nasser shamma's style has a major impact.
So...move to syria  and Damas and go to the arabic institute there and you might
get a different picture
One of the best oud player in Syria is Issam Rafea who has a position as Chair of the Arabic Music Department University in Damascus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90IM6mu8Two
He came to the Kennedy Center in 2004.The concert was arranged by the Syrian government and the Syrian ambassador in the US to promote Syrian music.
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katakofka
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Another issue. Arabic music is mainly singing music. Instrumental music is called literally " muted music" since no one is singing in it.
Traditionally, and since the abbassid dynasty, the oud was rather for the service of the human voice. Here where the Turkish introduce the change by
creating music for instruments (lounga and others).
The point is you need to explore much more the singing music to get a good idea about the arabic music and arabic makamaat. You might be really
mislead if you hear only instrumental music in the arab world and miss lot of info.
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Brian Prunka
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There are musicians in the country formerly known as Palestine who are also quite able to teach authentic Arabic maqam. Kamil Shajrawi is an
excellent oud and violin player and quite knowledgeable. He's based in Nazareth. Tasseer Elias is another excellent oud player. Nassim Dakwar is a
very knowledgeable violinist from Haifa (he and Elias play together in Ziryab Trio).
While you're in Egypt, you should try to get in contact with Alfred Gamil. I understand he is a very knowledgeable teacher (he plays violin and oud,
and a strong academic background as well as being a performer and composer).
I found a phone number for him: 00202-7820640
I don't know if it is current though. If it doesn't work, I can ask some friends how to get in touch with him.
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
Ed
There is an efficient system in Turkey to produce quality instrument players. Yordal and the best players in Turkey teach in the ITU. Have you seen
those trio oud players of the group" 3edm"? the 3 of them studied in the ITU and many others I assume.
Where are the best players in Egypt and are they teaching? is there any national institute in which a student musician is encouraged to enter? Beit
el oud is not a reflection of the Egyptian style on oud as we all agree on that.
Syria is a better place than Egypt in my view to get a clear idea about arabic oud playing. Although there is a Turkish influence in syria (north of
syria mainly) however oud players there (Alepo and Damas) are much more traditional as compared to what you find in Egypt where the influence of
Nasser shamma's style has a major impact.
So...move to syria and Damas and go to the arabic institute there and you might
get a different picture
One of the best oud player in Syria is Issam Rafea who has a position as Chair of the Arabic Music Department University in Damascus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90IM6mu8Two
He came to the Kennedy Center in 2004.The concert was arranged by the Syrian government and the Syrian ambassador in the US to promote Syrian music.
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this is true what you say.
and very good advice to go to Syria - - - and wouldnt that be funny because it was a Syrian oud player that very first TURNED ME ON TO THE OUD. The
first time i heard omar nachichbendi I KNEW i must learn that!
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
Another issue. Arabic music is mainly singing music. Instrumental music is called literally " muted music" since no one is singing in it.
Traditionally, and since the abbassid dynasty, the oud was rather for the service of the human voice. Here where the Turkish introduce the change by
creating music for instruments (lounga and others).
The point is you need to explore much more the singing music to get a good idea about the arabic music and arabic makamaat. You might be really
mislead if you hear only instrumental music in the arab world and miss lot of info. |
another excellent point...
i agree totally.
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Brian Prunka
There are musicians in the country formerly known as Palestine who are also quite able to teach authentic Arabic maqam. Kamil Shajrawi is an
excellent oud and violin player and quite knowledgeable. He's based in Nazareth. Tasseer Elias is another excellent oud player. Nassim Dakwar is a
very knowledgeable violinist from Haifa (he and Elias play together in Ziryab Trio).
While you're in Egypt, you should try to get in contact with Alfred Gamil. I understand he is a very knowledgeable teacher (he plays violin and oud,
and a strong academic background as well as being a performer and composer).
I found a phone number for him: 00202-7820640
I don't know if it is current though. If it doesn't work, I can ask some friends how to get in touch with him. |
Great idea - and THANKS Brian!
...generally what confuses me and has lead me to my current opinions is that when I do come across an Arab player who really seems to know the theory,
generally what they are telling me is that the Arab and the Ottoman makam theory is just totally the same thing... the only difference is that after
the Turks left, some of the interval placings shifted (some for cultural reasons, others for convenience as a result of the conference).
This is why finally I have decided simply to take the Ottoman system as my SOURCE for makam theory (since I find nothing lacking there - as far as ANY
theory can go)... what I am mostly trying to catch from Arab music is the style and form.
When I look at Arab maqamat from an Ottoman theoritcal viewpoint I can understand it well. The Ottoman details help me to understand what is going on.
. . . thereafter there obviously seem different ways that each school develops certain makams. . . for example Rast goes in very different
directions typically in both schools, but all of it is intellegible if I make use of Ottoman theory.
Now, after I look much more deeply into Arab vocal music, and perhaps make a trip to syria, then my opinions and practice might change.
Everything is always open to revision 
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Brian Prunka
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Edward,
I think you've found a very reasonable and pragmatic approach.
I would just be careful about confusing two things:
1. using Turkish makam theory as your source for understanding makam/maqam, because it's better documented/explained
2. thinking of Ottoman makam as the source for Arab maqam, in a historical sense.
The two are unrelated, and you can't infer the second from the first. Just because the Turks are more fond of theory doesn't mean they invented the
music. As someone pointed out previously, there has been too much cultural exchange in all directions to say "Arab maqam is derived from Ottoman
makam". Arab maqam was heavily influenced by Ottoman music, but the influence went the other direction as well.
Your points about the apparent one-sidedness of the forum is well-taken, but I don't think it's intentional. For one thing, most of us here are well
aware of the general superiority of Turkish instructional materials, and it's obvious that the majority of Samai's and Longas are written by Ottoman
composers. Almost all Bashrafs are written by Ottoman composers, since that form never became particularly popular in the Arab music world (in
contrast to the Samai, of which there are many composed by Arabs). So people don't always mention it because it's so obvious, not because they're not
aware of it.
Also, people tend to focus on what they're interested in most, so much of the exclusion is unintentional. There are several forum members here who
are passionate about Ottoman/Turkish music and post about it with regularity (Mavrothis, and Eliot come to mind). If you look at the sound files and
videos people post, it's clear that most of us are interested in all kinds of oud playing.
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Edward Powell
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ok - - - my understanding is beginning to take a new shape... now I will start a new thread with a slightly different focus...
By the way, today I found out about a bunch of exclusively Egyptian maqamat... very exciting!
I have a very long talk with Antar today, and he set me straight on many issues.
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charlie oud
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Hey Edward, Can you share these exclusively Egyptian maqamat please. The notes and names. Thanks, C.
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Edward Powell
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i'll have that list on Friday
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Owain-Hawk
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I'd appreciate that list too, Edward! I'm pretty sure Rast is one of them though...
-Thanks.
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Edward Powell
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Rast is an "exclusively Egyptian Maqam"???
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charlie oud
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Hey Edward, any sign of that list yet?. C
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Edward Powell
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haha!
The funny thing is that Mohammed promised me that list on our 3 hour train journey to Alex. for our gig, but as it turned out the bendir player and
the singer, both also blind guys, ended up sitting with Mohammed and they were just having a hell of a time - 3 hours of continuous joking and
laughing (drove me nuts after a while))
...so, no list yet.
But I do want to add that during my VERY LONG rehearsals with Antar (typically 6 hours long --- during which we actually practice for about 20
minutes) we have enjoyed hours and hours of long conversation. I am teaching him some things about Indian music and he is teaching me A LOT about Arab
and Turkish music.
In fact, I wanted to add that he has really finally set me straight with regard to my confusion about the origin of makam, and thinking that a lot of
it was coming from Turkey. I realise now that Arab classical music itself is an extremely sophisticated affair and has been going on in very developed
form for more than 1000 years.
The problem is that here and now there is not much of it left. Almost nothing in Cairo, so it gets you wondering! This is really a pity. Egypt has
suffered greatly as a result of colonisation. Egyptians have A LOT of work to do in order to find themselves again and rebuild what they have lost.
IMO
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charlie oud
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Yeah, you're right, it gets you wondering. But remember, music evolves Edward and maybe people started to get fed up with hearing the same old thing
and simply began to think, "Hey guys this is boring, no ones listening anymore and folk are'nt into playing this stuff anymore, shall we move on?". I
dont think we should mourn the passing of musical forms, maqamat or any other, it usually means their time is up and its not as if there is a shortage
of maqamat, quite the opposite if anything. Also, they are really easy to make up. In the end its all about content, meaning and delivery, not scales.
C
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Edward Powell
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Yes I agree with some of what you are saying Charlie, for sure. Yes music must "move on", and it is NOT about losing maqams or something.
I for sure agree that if would be depressing to go on playing the "old style" on and on and on simply because it had reached an incredibly high level
of development. Still it must be torn down and started again - this is the way things always need to go.
However, what I strongly disagree with is when you are in Cairo and you go to a concert or a school and they tell you that THIS is the REAL
Egyptian/Arab classical music, and they really believe they are telling you the truth - - - when in fact since about 1950 the classical music in Egypt
changed dramatically and now shares almost no resemblence to what was before.
I disagree with this because it is totally misleading. They try to give the impression that Arab classical music is still alive and still being taught
- and in this way they are truly guaranteeing it's death.
At least if they would admit that it doesn't exist anymore in the form that it existed in for 800 or 900 years before the post-colonial period... at
least if they would admit this fact, then perhaps some talented young musicians would take matters in their own hands and try to revive the old
tradition.
Personally I agree with reviving old traditions. But I don't agree with making a museum piece out of an old music. REVIVING means bringing back to
LIFE... and when something is ALIVE it also means it is growing and changing.
So why not "globalise" the makam system.
The problem as I see it is that they are trying to globalise Arab music, but in practice what they are doing is taking to worst and most incompatible
elements from musics from "other" (actually only Western) cultures. The result of this is the destruction and elimination of those unique elements
previously found in Arab music which made it the beautiful music it was. For just one example, Arab music is based on one melody line and it was not
originally intended for this one line to be played exactly as it is written - it was intended that the players can "bring the melody to life" by
adding their own little decorations. Now, for the last 900 years in Arab music you never would find more than one of any kind of instrument in an
ensemble (this was the rule)... why, because each instrument will ornament the melody. So if you have 15 violins (as they commonly do now) in a
typical "Arab music" ensemble, and each violin is decorating the melody--- this is not going to sound very pleasant, right?
Therefore now when you go to a concert, with these extremely large western style orchestras they, out of necessity, play the music note for note as it
is written - - - DEAD! No ornamentation. Sure, perhaps the oud and qanun can decorate a bit but you can never hear anything they are playing because
the dynamics of the these ensembles has been turning totally unsidedown... 15 violins, 20 vocalist.
They have changed to core of the music without first understanding what it was about the original form that made it so great. Afterall, the fact that
one form of music can thrive for 900 years or more is shear proof that they were doing something right. I can tell you for sure that the current form
of Arab classical music will not last, and in fact it is already totally dead. If it was not for the money pumped into it by the government, nobody
would be playing or listening to this at all.
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londonoudi
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Very interesting conversation.
I would like to add some observations.
1/I would like to draw attention to the strong link between art/music and religion that was a long time ago. The biggest musicians of even as recently
as the 30's would go to religous 'mubtahileen' and 'reciters' to get there compositions checked over. This is no longer.
2/The origins of art in terms of Egyptian maqamat (more widely music of the Arabs) are primarily vocal - instruments come second.
3/ The most recent damaging effect in relation to 'Egyptian' musical art was the most recent colonial occupation;
At what point do the boundaries of heritage begin to erode in the pursuit of improvement and the broadening of horizons?
Edward, may I ask you your thoughts on M Abdel Wahhab and his contribution to Arabic/ Egyptian music? I see your point totally - it is a frustration
and a sadness at what once was and what could be. But is it also possible that if these external sounds had not merged, then perhaps many would not
have been interested in the first place? I believe that 'globalising the makam' system as you say, would further compound the situation, and if
anything this has contributed to the effective lack of excellence.
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Edward Powell
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I am realising more and more that there are so many "correct" ways to do things... and what might be right for me, might not work for someone else.
It is up to each of us as individuals to answer these questions for ourselves.
I am not familiar enough with Waheb's work to answer accurately.
My feeling is that music should be allowed to mix, and develop in this way. This has always happened and must continue in order to keep music valid
and alive.
However, certain types of music do not lend well to mixing because they are based on conflicting systems of intonation (for ex. Western 12TET, and
Oriental JUST INTONATION), because the intonation clashes.
Another problem with compatibilty can be in the area of DYNAMICS. Very much care must be taken. For ex. I saw a concert of "Arab music" the other day
and there was an oud and kanun side by side a synth, drumkit, ebass - - - You simply could not hear the oriental instruments AT ALL (except the
darbuka!)
So, unless you REALLY know what you are doing, it is better not to get to couragous in mixing music of various cultures.
However, if you can organise an ensemble in which all instruments have a similar volume, and there are not too many overlapping frequencies. . . and
play in the same intonation, or at least find a way that your intonations will not clash. . . then go for it. But this is very difficult to achieve,
and generally fusion musician don't consider these find points at all - - - - and who comes out as the loser??? Finally the music itself. But more
specifically, the acoustic instruments always lose the battle with the electronic ones, and the EQUAL TEMPERED instruments mask the intonation
subtlties of modal instruments.
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Butrous
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Edward,
You might find the Forum discussion on alsiadi.com useful. Alsiadi, an Instructor and Phd student at Rutgers, is teaching a class "Introduction to
Arab Music" this semester. His students are posting question and discussing some of the same issues you are trying to understand on the Forum page
under the topic Introduction to Arab Music.
Also, you can visit his maqamat, and music scores pages to hear real Aleppian maqamat played by Scorch software while you read the music notation.
You can visit his youtube channel, rastsol, to hear his style of playing.
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reminore
Oud Junkie
Posts: 108
Registered: 10-30-2010
Location: Binghamton, NY
Member Is Offline
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feldman's ottoman court and non-turkish sources
Quote: Originally posted by eliot  | This whole "more real" or "more authentic" or "more anything" argument is a red herring.
Who were the Ottomans who created makam-s? Were they only Turks? No. Walter Feldman's lengthy and, unfortunately mistitled, Music of the Ottoman
Court accomplishes very well the objective of ascertaining exactly who composed, performed, and consumed the music now known as TSM/ KTM/ OSM. At
certain points in time, the majority of the sultanate-employed musicians were not Turkish at all but Persians, Jews, Greeks, Armenians, Roma, Arabs,
Moldavians, etc. At other points in time, the balance shifted so that many more Turks were involved in the creation of urban music. So whose music is
it?
The Dede Efendi makam-s in Turkey were highly influenced, we know, from him observing opera performances that happened from 1797 onwards (Sultan Selim
III loved European opera and sponsored its happening in Istanbul). It could easily be argued that Dede Efendi "westernized" the makam system. Yes,
some of his makam entities were more complex, but are they more or less real for it?
Masel's right to point out the Persian origin of certain makams and makam names. The Persian makam system existed and was used up until the creation
of the dastgah system, then fell out of use somewhat. However, we don't really know how much of the Persian system really spread throughout the Middle
East, and whether anything other than some maqam names and some basic interval patterns spread as well.
We will NEVER be able to prove that the maqam/makam system as we know it today originated in one place and spread, since we lack solid evidence about
what musical systems existed throughout Anatolia, in Egypt, in the Levent, etc. that were either displaced or adapted to fit within a system of maqam.
We do not have repertoire from 13th-17th century Iran that is widely played in either the current Turkish or Arab speaking world.
We don't even really know how widespread the knowledge of maqamat was in the 17th century, outside of the few people who wrote about it. So I hesitate
to affirm that maqam went from point A to B, end of story. It's not as if Persians were not influenced by musicians, music styles, and thought that
came from abroad. A lot of stuff was in circulation during the Safavid period - Islamic jurisprudence scholars, musicians, philosophy, material goods,
instruments, maqamat, etc. |
i don't know whether it makes any sense to add to such an interesting thread two years later, but i feel the need to add the following thought...i am
just reading feldman's "music of the ottoman court" for the first time. going through the bibliography i am stunned to see not one greek source,
either in greek, or in english dealing with byzantine music, either religious or laic. an entire 500 pages, and no mention for a liturgical
tradition using many of the same makams for more than a thousand years (at least)? it is amazing to me how straight 'turkololgical' training can lead
a researcher to search as far afield as central asia and kashmir, but can completely ignore a such an important field of study geographically right
under his nose!
i was in greece this summer, and met with a friend of mine who has been working with medieval greek scores of the 13th and 14th centuries found in the
libraries of monasteries on mt. athos, where monks recording secular music of the period are already using perso/arabic names of 'makams' like segah
and rast in texts rather than the more traditional ecclesiastical greek names. there was an intense exchange of musics going on between 'rum' (the
greek speaking byzantine empire) and the seljuks (and later the ottoman turks) much earlier than the fall of constantinople.
my point is only to underscore the fact that because many people do not read modern greek, and many greek works have not been translated - this entire
facet of the entwined musical tradition of that part of the world remains a mystery to so many researchers...and players and just people who love the
music.
a must listen on this subject is the cd, "fener'den saray'a" (from phanar to the ottoman court) by the kudsi erguner ensemble...listen to track 13, a
mahur gazel sung by a church cantor in the 'byzantine' style...amazing!
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