Edward Powell
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NISHABUREK vs. RAST
can anyone please tell me what the very basic differences btw. the seyirs of these 2 makams is???
...as everybody knows NISHABUREK is almost exactly a RAST MAKAM but starting from DUGAH. However I know that the seyir is different. Necati was
teaching this to me, but he very honestly admitted that it has been so long since he has played it, that fine details are things he has currently
forgotten... but he still stressed that the seyirs of rast and nishaburek are very distinctly different and therefore nishaburek needs to be
respected and studied on it's own --- his implication was that basically very very few people take the time to learn nishaburek and instead simply
play a RAST from DUGAH.
I have in notes that NISHABUREK is an ascending/descending makam (RAST of course is an ascending makam)... and this means that theoretically in
nishaburek it ought to come out sounding somewhat like huseini --- with a strong emphasis on the dominant (huseini note) - and an ussak tetrachord
from the huseini note.
I also have in my notes that of course the D is # (minus one coma) but on descent the D should be natural???? hmmmmm.... ok, this is also a bit
like RAST as in rast the 3rd degree goes very flat on final karar.
But what about small stopping points on other makams? Rast likes to touch on: SEGAH, SUZNAK, HUSEINI, USSAK... but what about NISHABUREK??? Does it
touch on these same makams but just one whole-tone higher??
Can anyone suggest any mp3s or youtube clips of this makam?? I would finally really like to learn more about nishaburek.
The reason why I ask is that i am now composing rag-makams with my new ragmakamtar... and the thing is that the "oud" neck sounds great in B... and
the "sarod" neck also. So this works great playing in turkish KIZNEY. But when playing RAST actually the tonic would then become A... and A is just
not working well on the sarod neck... so therefore when I want to use something like RAST, I must play it from dugah, not rast (B not A). So I figure,
since I am doing something "RASTISH" from dugah, why not be authentic and really play a proper NISHABUREK??? ....otherwise why does nishaburek
exist??? There must be some hidden secret in there that makes it sound especially nice when starting from Dugah note....
....thanks for your help
ps- I am now going to dig up a bunch of old Turkish composition in nishaburek and see if I can de-code the seyir on my own...
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Edward Powell
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...just having a quick look at one LONGA in nishaburek, i really seems to be based on the high notes (upper tetrachord), and even the OCTAVE more than
the dominant.
also, the fourth degree seems to be in the # position rather than the natural position as I would be in rast pentachord (so it sounds more like
pencgah?). But anyway perhaps the 4th degree is very "rubbery" in nishaburek and is only "shifted" in the # position as a temporary way to "point"
upwards toward the high register where it is clearly focusing?
I look forward to hearing from those who have had experience with this beautiful makam... so far it sounds really a lot like raga yaman.
but anyway, I am not sure if it will be so useful as a kind of RAST FROM DUGAH that I am looking for... because nishaburek really hardly seems to do
anything at all with the rast pentachord from the tonic - - - it seems strongly focused on the high notes.
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Edward Powell
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actually the result seems finally to feel basically like a rast makam starting from HUSEINI NOTE, but with tonic DUGAH.
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adamgood
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Edward,
I don't know much about Nishaburek beyond this:
Yes it's kinda Rast sounding but starting from Dugah. The entry note is Huseyni therefore it makes for a nice modulation from or to makam Huseyni.
Note Tatyos Efendi's Huseyni Saz Semaisi, 2nd hane looks a bit like it's showing Nishaburek cesni.
Probably buselik makam is very close in the neighborhood for modulations?
I just saw Necati this past weekend and Nisaburek came up. He said basically the same as what you wrote. I asked him if it had anything to do with
makam Nisabur and he didn't think so. But now when I look at some pieces, it seems to use a bunch of what I know as nisabur makam (karar is buselik)
in a similar way that Rast uses lots of Ussak for its seyir.
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Edward Powell
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yes, from my VERY ROUGH understanding I have always assumed that there is a sort of parallel btw nishaburek/nishabur, like rast/ussak.
The more I look at nishaburek composition it REALLY seems to me like actually a kind of rast from huseini. Feeling like a very high pitched - positive
sounding high rast... almost like raga yaman... (lydian mode). I guess pencgah is very very nearby. The rast from dugah does not seem to playout
much in the development, just coming around in the final karar.
What i now realised in my "ragmakam" composing is that I had composed a piece that I though was mixing raga saraswati and makam rast... it has
saraswati tetrachord + rast tetrachord (starting from huseini note) --- now I realise that what I actually did was combine raga saraswati with
NISHABUREK(!) not with RAST!. ---now with the composing I am doing now I really want a strong RAST feeling in the lower tetrachord, so
finally I am going to stick with RAST makam/pentachord starting from dugah. Actually there is no reason why one cannot play a pure makam rast but
start from B. That would anyway be like simply playing RAST in MUSTAZEN TUNING.
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mavrothis
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Wonderful analysis, thanks!
I am very interested in playing through some Nishaburek and Nishabur pieces now!
mavrothis
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Reda Aouad
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Well Im very puzzled.. :S
Ed can you please summarize the seyr of Nishaburek? I never played it.. only heard of it.. it would be nice to explore a new maqam..
Plus.. when will you post your new compositions? Are they part of a next album or something? Can we listen to you playing them on your ragmakamtar?
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Edward Powell
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All I know about Nishaburek is that it is the same as RAST in that it is built with a RAST pentachord + a RAST tetrachord. This is what happens in
RAST also.
But NISHABUREK is simply totally different from RAST. First of all the tonic is DUGAH, not Rast note. But the main reason why it is so different is
because RAST is an ascending makam, whereas NISHABUREK is an ascending/descending makam which means that the dominant note is MORE IMPORTANT than the
tonic, and the main playing area is btw the dominant and the octave. And the playing never goes below the tonic's leading tone.
Therefore the result of that is that what obviously is left for you to play is mostly RAST things centered around the dominant which is huseini
note.
- - -
Concerning my new compositions... I just finished composing 3 new pieces and I have them recorded very very roughly - not well enough to post yet.
These will be new live pieces for my new RMTAR, as well as tunes for a new CD.
However, today I have gone back to work I need to do to finish off the FIRST ragmakam cd. This Cd i managed to get 80% completed last year in istanbul
- but it has been on the shelf since then (a bad habit of mine - or rather, i am trying to do too many things in life  ) ...I simply need to add drums, and that is it - - - but unfortunately suddenly
all of my drummers around here are swamped with summer work.
I am now recording bass lines with my afro-bass. To put bass or not is a big dilemna............. part of me says to leave it off completely and be
completely modal.... but the other part wants to add the juicy bottom and groove..... probably I will get the percussion done in Vancouver since
that place is crawling with wonderful indian tabla players.
PS - it takes me less than one day to compose a long piece - - - but about 2 weeks to learn properly. I will record these on the ragmakamtar and post
as soon as they are decent enough . . . . .
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Reda Aouad
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Thank you
But that's a tricky maqam to play in Arabic tuning.. I'm talking about the Kerdan (DO in my case) half-sharp.. and especially that it revolves around
the dominant and the octave as you said..
Is it easier to play in Turkish tuning?
I'll be waiting for your compositions 
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Edward Powell
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ok - surprise... I just had a quick look over a few NISHABUREK PESREVS in the first hane of each - specifically at what is happening with
GERDANIYE/KERDAN. [i look at the first hane of pesrevs to get seyir verification because the first hane of a pesrev is "supposed" to follow the really
bare basic original seyir as a way to settle the listener firmly centered in the given makam].
It seems that GERDANIYE is almost always played NATURAL (notated with a natural sign since it is 1/4 sharp in the keysignature). So this sheds new
light on my assumption that nishaburek's upper tetrachord is acting very much like rast. This now seems not to be the case.
Anyway, ALL makams must be treated as individuals and not lumped together in say something like what I had said "rast from huseini" etc. Of course we
do say these thing in the beginning as a way to begin understanding.
I need to hear som recordings of NISHABUREK. There is nothing on youtube at all... and my collection has nothing...
I remember that the ISTANBUL YILDIZ group did a fasil in NISHABUREK and I video taped the whole thing... I will go now and try to dig that out - and
perhaps post on youtube it is is decent....
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Edward Powell
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actually that gerdaniye is mostly natural points to a similarity to original rast makam since in rast, when you are playing low in the beginning the
7th degree shifts to flat position.
also if you look at huseini makam the 6th degree is supposed to be 1/4 flat according to the key signature (meaning an ussak/bayati tetrachord from
huseini note), but which you start the makam and are focused on the huseini note then the 6th degree goes totally flat. In fact in huseini makam I
would say that you play the 6th degree more often flat than 1/4 flat!
I think this illustrates the same practice - with nishaburek.
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adamgood
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A few corrections about Nisaburek, according to the Ismail Hakki Ozkan book and some pieces I'm looking at:
1. Nisaburek is built from:
rast pentachord from Dugah pitch
+
buselik tetrachord from Huseyni pitch
(rather than two rast Xchords)
2. You _can_ go below the tonic (dugha) no problem. All the way down to HuseyniAsiran (Mi)
3. The seyir begins on Huseyni pitch, very very unlike Rast.
4. I would really avoid thinking of Nisaburek as the "same as Rast". It's not a transposition, a whole other animal.
and this seems important...
5. Nisabur cesni is pretty essential so it's worth it to check out some of the very few nisabur pieces at our disposal.
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Edward Powell
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yes... i have those videos of nishaburek --- i will post them today 
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Edward Powell
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Thanks so much ADAM! This is great to have some official info --- however I have always seen nishaburek listed as a rast tetrachord from huseini - not
buselik. Also on the pesrevs I have notes for, the keysignature confirms that rast from huseini.
However gerdaniye certainly seem natural more often than 1/4 sharp, so perhaps some people like to consider it a buselik tetrachord...
finally i think the proof is in how the actually music sounds... to listen to a lot of the makam, learn a few pieces - then it all comes clear.
I am uploading one clip now to my 4128w10 youtube channel.
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Edward Powell
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going below tonic:
Adam would you agree that in turkish bayati and huseini you ought technically go below the tonic - only as far as the leading tone?
I have been under the inpression that this is a standard characteristic of ascending/descending makams. However I know these catagoried can be very
misleading, and are only meant as a rough/general guide.
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Edward Powell
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNAdCNOaVBs
here is NISHABUREK "LIVE"
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adamgood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
going below tonic:
Adam would you agree that in turkish bayati and huseini you ought technically go below the tonic - only as far as the leading tone?
I have been under the inpression that this is a standard characteristic of ascending/descending makams. However I know these catagoried can be very
misleading, and are only meant as a rough/general guide. |
Well you probably know that Ussak likes to go screaming head first all the way down to yegah pitch which is a 5th below the tonic so, if you are
playing a Huseyni or Beyati taksim and say, go all the way down to Yegah pitch then you are showing a bit of Ussak makam. Of course if you don't get
too far away from Huseyni or Beyati then you are ok, otherwise you're in the territory of modulating to Ussak.
Nuri Karademirli did this in a lesson with me, playing Huseyni makam, he made a quick left turn down to yegah but only enough for a quick taste. By
the way Nuri is really really amazing at showing quick cesnis in taksims, quick enough that you notice it but he never takes you out of the makam he's
intending. Really like magic.
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adamgood
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...also let's say for Huseyni taksim, another makam called Dilkesavaren (I think I spelled it correctly) is something described beginning like Huseyni
makam and making a karar on Irak pitch. So if you know something about Dilkesavaren you can maybe show some of that quickly in Huseyni taksim ??
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by adamgood
| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
going below tonic:
Adam would you agree that in turkish bayati and huseini you ought technically go below the tonic - only as far as the leading tone?
I have been under the inpression that this is a standard characteristic of ascending/descending makams. However I know these catagoried can be very
misleading, and are only meant as a rough/general guide. |
Well you probably know that Ussak likes to go screaming head first all the way down to yegah pitch which is a 5th below the tonic so, if you are
playing a Huseyni or Beyati taksim and say, go all the way down to Yegah pitch then you are showing a bit of Ussak makam. Of course if you don't get
too far away from Huseyni or Beyati then you are ok, otherwise you're in the territory of modulating to Ussak.
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Yes... I agree.
However I remember Necati once giving me a lecture about how some modulations/cesnis from some makams ought best be avoided. Also from others I have
talked to - have told me that Ussak and Bayati don't mix well together because they are so close. Playing one, is really best to totally avoid the
other, thereby being more certain not to dilute to flavour of the original too much - - - but of course, at the end of the day, when you are playing
if your heart tells you to go somewhere where you have been previously advised not to go - still you better go there anyway
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by adamgood
| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
going below tonic:
Adam would you agree that in turkish bayati and huseini you ought technically go below the tonic - only as far as the leading tone?
I have been under the inpression that this is a standard characteristic of ascending/descending makams. However I know these catagoried can be very
misleading, and are only meant as a rough/general guide. |
Nuri Karademirli did this in a lesson with me, playing Huseyni makam, he made a quick left turn down to yegah but only enough for a quick taste. By
the way Nuri is really really amazing at showing quick cesnis in taksims, quick enough that you notice it but he never takes you out of the makam he's
intending. Really like magic. |
...just read this line --- yes exactly --- and this is the real art of it, isn't? - - HOW TO BREAK THE RULES!!! ...if the rules are not broken then
the music ends up pretty sterile
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by adamgood
...also let's say for Huseyni taksim, another makam called Dilkesavaren (I think I spelled it correctly) is something described beginning like Huseyni
makam and making a karar on Irak pitch. So if you know something about Dilkesavaren you can maybe show some of that quickly in Huseyni taksim ??
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...also true.
so i guess the point of knowing about this "rule" (not going below tonic in asc/des. makams) in fact is simply a tool you can use in order to stick to
it in those moments when you really intend to stress the original flavour of the home makam. Then, when you "break" the rule - you do it with
awareness, and therefore tread lightly - but not inhibited.
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