physae
Oud Admirer
Posts: 4
Registered: 2-18-2010
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another fool for ouds
Hello,
I confess, I now have it too: oud fever.
As a teenager I studied classical and jazz guitar. Then for two decades I didn't play. Several years ago I returned to acoustic guitar...fingerstyle
improvisation.
More recently I have been studying Robert Fripp's New Standard Tuning for guitar, and I have played in a Fripp-styled guitar circle with others --
very enjoyable.
...all the while, I feel myself inexplicably drawn to explore this ancient instrument.
Not owning an oud, I am currently exploring oud tunings and playing styles on my steel-string guitar. It is not quite satisfying, but it will have to
do.
I think what I find irresistable about this instrument is its sheer beauty, visually and audibly. It seems to me to be a form of meditative
improvisation that resembles Blues guitar, perhaps in the play of minor scales...while harking beyond the Blues to something else.
Now it is clear that I must simply find an oud to play. I have no idea where to begin. I am afraid to buy an instrument from the internet, but do I
have a choice? Do I buy a Sandi with a 30 day return guarantee, or do I look for something here on Mike's and be willing to pay twice as much?
I see myself waiting a year or two while searching for the right instrument. I will wait that long if I have to. But I would love to find the right
instrument much sooner.
Chris
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 2-17-2010
Location: Iran - Karaj
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Hi Chris
there are 3 important things u didnt mention:
1- the place u live
2- the style u want to play(persian, arabic, turkish, flamenco, classical, jazz,...)
3- how much are u gonna pay for that
tell us n im sure we can guide u
regards, Amir
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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physae
Oud Admirer
Posts: 4
Registered: 2-18-2010
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Hello Amir,
1 - I live in Seattle (the States)
2 - I am listening to a lot of Anouar Brahem lately, but I am deeply intrigued by Persian sounds I have heard. So, basically, I am still unsure which
oud I am looking for, but in the end, I think it would be Arabic.
3 - I am willing to pay between $500 - $1,000
Thank you for asking...
Chris
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David.B
Oud Junkie
Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
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Mood: Renaissance
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Just to say hello Chris,
I bought my 2 Sukar ouds in a shop in France and I won't help you so much. I can give you a link where we already talked about that :
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10123
You might grab some infos 
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damascene_oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 143
Registered: 4-28-2007
Location: Damascus
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Mood: Obssessed by oud
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Hello Physae,
You can check ebay. There is a seller under the name of: "palmyrami" that is offering ouds made by the Syrian famous oud maker Ibrahim Sukar should
you decide to buy one of Sukar's ouds.
To my opinion that Sukar ouds are good and with excellent sound characterized by th deep Arabic oud sound and with high playability. I would suggest
you check that seller.
If you are interested Mr. Ibrahim Sukar can ship any oud you wish to any place in the world.
You may want to check Sukar's website:
http://www.oudsukar.com
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Palmyrami don't know much about ouds but the Sukars they sell are packed in Syria and good. They usually have Model 1s that can be haggled down to
$400 or ? with hard case. Look up Model 1 Sukar in the forum, they are truly excellent value, and especially safe as a first oud. With a Sukar you're
not playing balalaika roulette. The various Khalifas etc are poor, and there are lots of forged "vintage ouds".
The Sukar Model 8s I see on e-bay don't look very different in woods from a Model 1, and that's the main difference since all Sukars have the same
excellent design. Maybe a little more polished than a Model 1 but not sure it's worth twice the money if you can find a Model 1. Ask here, forum
members have various Sukars.
Oud Prof is selling some of his unique collection, that's another plausible bet, but more money.
And look at what Luttgutt has, he has several fancier Sukars, some with the Iraqi floating bridge design, of which he wants to sell at least one.
Luttgutt is kind and really wants to place in a Good Home. Maybe worth shipping in hard case from Norway?
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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Greetings from Chris to Chris 
Interesting ... I'm a former guitarist too (12-string), but my roots are independent rock bands like Chameleons, Big Country, Joy Devision, Bauhaus,
etc..
| Quote: | | It seems to me to be a form of meditative improvisation ... |
Yes, that comes close ... this instrument has something magical to it. When I come home stressed from work, I grab my oud (which I bought in November
with the help of the forums here), play one hour and feel relaxed ... this instrument is a like a drug, but it doesn't ruin your health ... only your
bank account, if you become an oud collector like some people here 
| Quote: | | I see myself waiting a year or two while searching for the right instrument. |
That will never happen ... the more you listen to oud music and the more you read about it, the more you will want to play it yourself. And the people
here are really helpful.
So the Palmyrami or Luttgutt tips (Sukar ouds) might be ideal. You will get a good starter oud for a reasonable price ... which btw has an ajustable
neck ... and you could buy your dream oud maybe 1 or 2 years later ... maybe a concert oud? You also should know, that there are oud luthiers in US
... others might tell you more.
Oh ... I should mention this ... as a former guitarist I had problems getting used to floating bridge and decided for a fixed bridge oud. Maybe it's
different for you, but I thought I should mention it.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Physae,
One of the cool things that tends to happen is you get so sucked in that you read and you play a LOT. You will be surprised. Welcome. The human spirit
is wonderful.
Chris is right, Floating bridge is maybe too special. It's not the core traditional design, and they sound brighter.
Oh, and allow me to tell you one reason I ADORE the oud and hardly play the guitar (though i do enjoy playing the bass). The oud accomplishes
everything with smarts where the guitar does it rather with brute force. The amazing volume you can get out of the oud stems from the shape of the
bowl and the bracing. The strings are not under even half the tension of a guitar. The result is that your fingers don't have to fight and press on
that egg-slicer. You have no idea of the joy you will encounter.
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 2-17-2010
Location: Iran - Karaj
Member Is Offline
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ok
i suggest sukar ouds like others. i have ordered my instrument by my self n its made according my needs. i have never tried his models. but whatever u
buy, just make sure that the pegs n the neck surface are made of ebony wood. these are the requirements to have a tuned, fixed-action instrument. i
suggest floating bridge. $1000 is enough for such an instrument.
coz u have already learned the music. u will probably be able to learn to play it by ur self. u can find methods n books online.
u can also use jamil bashir method downloadable here:
http://www.divshare.com/download/10217157-eb9
http://www.divshare.com/download/10217329-430
well its arabic but u still can use it
It's the Persian-Arabic tuning for 13-strings oud(from the Bass): D-G-A-D-G-C-F
just find the chromatic frets by a tuner or ur ear n mark them like a violin beginner. its the first step to play any style. check the pics in the
pages 22 & 23 to learn the correct form of fingering n picking. first days practice picking, up n down.
then start playin' some etudes(page 25 continued). pay attention to the common signs n skip sori/koron sign. the goal is to enhance the left n right
hands' abilities.
after some weeks(the period is short coz u have already played string instruments) its time to pick ur style:
to play jazz or blues, its my way to learn: Guitar's Em is Oud's Gm!!! it means that Gm on oud is as easy as Em on Guitar. i use Guitar books(Blues
Guitar Basics/Keith Wyatt, MelBay's Classical Blues Licks For Electric Guitar/Fred Skolow). n i transpose the licks in E scales to G scale(e.g. Em to
Gm). n thats it!!! u will be able to improvise. electric oud n a tube amp also helps u to get more bluesy sound.
to play persian style, u should also learn the positions of 1/4 frets. u can find them with a tuner too. i explain by an examples:
A note 1/4 down(or A koron) is where the tuner is unsure that whether its an A or Ab. the pointer shows the high Ab n low A n changes between them.
the A 1/4 up is called A sori(the tuner is confused between A n A#)
u will need an Iranian Radif book to learn the Dastgahs(maqams) n improvise. i suggest Jean During Radif for Tar&Setar. coz there ain't any Radif
written for Oud yet, of course there is one coming soon which really sucks(Nariman's Radif). u can also play persian pieces n Tasnives. all of these
books r available online.
u may find some teachers there, but whatever u do, just dont become a sudent of Behrouzinia. coz he doesnt use n teach the standard fingering.
im available on facebook n my email is in my profile. i also check these forums every day. u can contact me for any other questions. ill be glad to
meet u if u came to Iran some day.
Best wishes, Amir
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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That's an argument I should keep in mind. In other words: the oud touches the soul, when playing even more as when just listening.
That's exactly, what I had planned, when I got my oud, to use temporary fret markings, but I gave up this idea very fast. I was astonished, how fast a
former guitarist can get used to a fretless fingerboard. I was very sceptic in the beginning, but it took me just a few days ... I'm still astonished
that it worked that fast though
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 2-17-2010
Location: Iran - Karaj
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Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  | | That's exactly, what I had planned, when I got my oud, to use temporary fret markings, but I gave up this idea very fast. I was astonished, how fast a
former guitarist can get used to a fretless fingerboard. I was very sceptic in the beginning, but it took me just a few days ... I'm still astonished
that it worked that fast though |
well thats the way that the oud is taught here to every one, not only to former guitarists. those who have played other instruments get used to it
sooner, coz they have improved ears n they use their ears to adjust their fingers.
former guitarist get used to it even sooner, coz Oud n Guitar almost have the same sound range(e.g. the lowest E in both instrument have the same
tone) so the distance between the frets is the same.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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Ok, but for absolute beginners, who never played an instrument before, a fretless instrument is much harder to learn than a fretted one like guitar.
So for those people I think temporary markings are very helpful.
| Quote: | | ..., coz Oud n Guitar almost have the same sound range(e.g. the lowest E in both instrument have the same tone) so the distance between the frets is
the same. |
The place, where to find which note on the fingerboard is very similar (depending on the used tuning), but the distances are shorter, because the oud
is smaller. And the end of the fingerboard (where it joins the body) is at the 7th thread, not on the 12th.
But you're right, for guitarists it's not that hard to get used to the oud ... regarding finding the notes correctly on the fingerboard. But learning
arabic music is a different "league", if you only played western music before
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 2-17-2010
Location: Iran - Karaj
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| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara | The place, where to find which note on the fingerboard is very similar (depending on the used tuning), but the distances are shorter, because the oud
is smaller. And the end of the fingerboard (where it joins the body) is at the 7th thread, not on the 12th.
But you're right, for guitarists it's not that hard to get used to the oud ... regarding finding the notes correctly on the fingerboard. But learning
arabic music is a different "league", if you only played western music before
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ummm.... i think there's a misunderstanding here... the fret board length is irrelevant to the distances between the frets. as my fretboard is longer
than common ouds(9 frets) n the distances are still the same. its what i exactly mean:
e.g. the distance between A# n B on the A string is the same on both instruments. but if u compare it with the same distance on violin(string A) and a
bass guitar(string A) u will see that its longer than the violin's n shorter than the bass. u can use a ruler
and im talking about playing the Oud, not playing arabic music. arabic oud is just 1 style of Oud. we do not have to learn arabic music in order to
play the oud.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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Shure ... it was just an example.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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"we do not have to learn arabic music in order to play the oud. "
But I rather think that we should.
Let me explain. When I first heard the oud on Sandy Bull's "Manha De Carnaval" in the late 1960s I was enchanted with its timbre and its soul. Sandy
Bull was a student of Hamza El Din (who was his room-mate in Greenwich Village).
The oud tugged at my heart for decades. I was drawn to fretless bass for reasons I didn't understand, but now I know it was in large measure the pull
of the oud. I could not imagine owning an oud back then, and for some reason I assumed it was as unattainable as a clavichord, or a harpsichord. I
tried various workarounds, including partly defretting a guitar.
After I had discovered that a clavichord was actually no more unobtainable than a harpsichord ;-) , I asked around and, after a while, actually
touched some (measly and overpriced) ouds hanging like hams from the rafters of a dollar store on Mission Street in San Francisco. That demystified
the oud acquisition prospects but good! Last Summer I ran into this forum and started really reading about the instrument, then decided to buy a
Sukar, thanks to some good advice here. Oh! what a beautiful instrument UPS brought to my door!
For a bit I was still thinking of it as a relative of the guitar, that I could play with my fingers, and on which I could apply my many years of
guitar experience. Well, yes, OK, I could. But it wasn't anything like I imagined. The close spacing, the doubled strings, and the short neck/scale
completely altered the feel. Playing anything but two note chords was difficult, perhaps pointless. And then I started working with a long thin risha
and learning my first maqamat (and took a lesson from a student of Hamza El Dim - the world had come full circle). I realized that this was a match
made in heaven and that the oud was its own world, best played as a "voice" working sequential rather than concurrent harmony.
But what really struck me was that I had been gifted with the opportunity to learn a completely different approach to music, if not an insight into a
very different culture. I had thought that culture was "elsewhere" in the sense that "you can't get there from here". Allow me to say that I
experienced a bit of an epiphany while "hanging out" in this forum, like when a member said he could help another buy an oud in Baghdad by (simply)
calling his brother on the phone, a revelation that is best conveyed as a realization that Baghdad is a real place on google-earth, populated (right
now) with people of flesh and blood, with cell-phones, families and day to day cares and worries, who love and play music, in a completely different
yet equally sophisticated way to anything I had known. In other words I was gifted with many new thoughts and ideas, and the Oud continued to acquire
more importance and to sow good seeds in my life.
So, to anyone who wants to debate whether the oud should be played the traditional way I would say: "Of course! why would you want to miss out on such
a gift? Do you want to merely do more of what you have already done?"
That said, I enjoy experimenting with finger-picking and I don't condemn any approach to playing it. But give the oud's traditional ways a chance, and
I trust you will be rewarded in many unexpected ways.
Attachment: SandyBullManhaDeCarnival_begin96.mp3 (1021kB)
This file has been downloaded 124 times
Some Sandy Bull MP3s Carmina Burana on the Banjo and Memphis on electric guitar are amazing. Gospel Tune is another gem.
p.s. Don't worry about Spyblaster's generous offerings. On the way to decoding that copy of a xerox of a xerox of the Bashir Method in Arabic, there
are, mercifully, simpler ways ... including OudProf's DVD. I just spent 3 hours today playing off some of OudProf's examples. Good company on a rainy
Sunday.
p.p.s. Re: Ebony for pegs. Some very smart luthiers have found that ebony is very hard/abrasive and is the reason violins need rebushing so much,
hence they prefer rosewood or other hard woods on lutes/ouds. Ebony pegs are often better fitted, but ebony per se does not have to be considered a
"must". Bone nuts are another apparent "must" that isn't; Ibrahim Sukar himself says he doesn't like bone nuts.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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... and when we look at photos and videos, we'll find out, that many ouds (including mine) have nuts made of rosewood or ebony.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 2-17-2010
Location: Iran - Karaj
Member Is Offline
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hey.... that was not what i mean
of course its not recommended to play the oud with guitar style. as u cant play the Kamanche with violin style. but arabic music is arabic music n oud
style is oud style. its a general way to play any style of music on oud. i meant we dont have to learn arabic makamat n arabic music to play the oud.
why should we learn 'em if we are gonna play the jazz, turkish or persian oud?
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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