fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Question: why would anyone want oud without adjustable neck?
I am really puzzled. I have seen several decent ouds recently that are ruined by (only) a high action. I have been told repeatedly this is a hard (and
costly) problem to fix as it usually means detaching and reattaching the neck. Since Sukar (and one other luthier) makes ouds with an adjustable neck,
why would anyone make a high quality oud without such an adjustment, and why would anyone buy an expensive oud without it? Sukar's mechanism isn't
even visible, uses no costly parts, and it doesn't seem to weaken the instrument at all. The other mechanism is more complicated, but it too seems all
pluses. Can someone explain? Thanks.
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi Tony,
how many players know, that adjustable necks are available? And how many of them really know the advantages, maybe because they know it from guitars?
And how many of them might not like the ouds of these two luthiers? I don't know ... just thoughts.
And from the luthier's point of view ... how many luthiers have the knowledge to build an adjustable neck? And how many of them are willing to invest
time and money in this feature, if they don't see an advantage from the economically point of view?
And then there are the traditionalists, be it players or luthiers? Remember my ideas regarding an adjustable bridge ... how many accused me wanting a
guitar-oud-hybrid 
I myself would like to have an adjustable neck, so maybe my next oud might be a Shukar ... we'll see, because I tend more to a custom oud in the
future.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
spyblaster
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 2-17-2010
Location: Iran - Karaj
Member Is Offline
|
|
well... one reason is that some people like to have their oud be made in traditional form. they cant accept new initiatives like floating bridges,
plastic raqmas, added strings(bass D n high FF) and adjustable neck.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I called these people traditionalists in my posting. Do you think it's the majority?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
spyblaster
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 2-17-2010
Location: Iran - Karaj
Member Is Offline
|
|
well he asked why would anyone want oud without an adjustable neck
if someone knows about those necks n have the ability to buy such an oud, i dont know any other reason.
but if some one doesnt know about those necks or he/she cant buy that, he/she will have the usual neck becoz there is no other choice for him/her.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
As it was in my case.
A further thought:
I'm a fan of the long fingerboards, that end at the big soundhole. Does an adjustable neck make sence here? Because when adjusting the neck, doesn't
the fingerboard get bend? That was the reason, why I was thinking of an adjustable bridge hight as an alternative.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
There are a number of great luthiers whose instruments are often discussed here, and some less known but equally good. I am thinking of ordering a
custom instrument from one of them sometime in the future. But only Ibrahim Sukar and the luthier that I can't remember offer the adjustable neck.
I should add that "adjustment" is just a simple and clever way to join the neck to the body so that there is a small range of motion possible that
determines the angle between the soundboard and the fretboard, so you can raise and lower the string height at the body/neck junction by a few
millimeters, by turning a butterfly nut inside the bowl. The point is that this is not some complicated machine, and it doesn't change that basic
construction of an oud.
Given all this, I can't imagine ordering an oud from one of the Traditionalists and know that I wll be stuck with that neck angle problem that ruins
so many ouds or face an expensive repair in maybe only a year. If I put significant money into an oud without this feature, you know all that
expensive woood, beautiful design, execution, finish and then WHAT? That's like knowing about the problems with aliphatic resin Carpenter Glues,
accepting an instrument ( irreparably) glued with that, and knowing that if any repair is necessary, it will basically require demolishing the
oud.
So what is one supposed to do? I wouldn't necessarily choose my dream oud only from Sukar's offerings, but it seems this is the only option.
|
|
|
alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cool
|
|
First, adjusting the action is very simple & costless. You don't have to detach the neck, it's as easy as inserting a coin in a machine, once you
learn how to do that. I adjust the action myself without involving anybody .
Second, it's not advisable, as said by great luthiers, to use metal parts in building the oud. The word "oud" means wood in Arabic, so it's apparently
made up of woods only, I mean the structural part, not the design part. Inserting metal parts inside the oud may also affect the sound and make it a
bit artificial.
Have you ever seen a Sukkar oud detached neck ? He uses 3 thick nails and this butterfly shape screw. Once you see it you'd prefer a high action over
nailing your oud.
Third, high quality oud can be built in a manner that it wouldn't change its action unless a decade has elapsed. I have a Kamil Mowais
(Nazareth)1991 high quality oud that I play daily & its action stands still .
So what would you prefer, a metal nailed oud that you play & hear on daily basis, or once a decade all wood oud repaired action ?
Yours Truly
Alfaraby
|
|
|
spyblaster
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 2-17-2010
Location: Iran - Karaj
Member Is Offline
|
|
do u mean this?(the left instrument)
if so, ive been playing that instrument for about a year n there was no problem(its made by sukar)
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Why then do we have so many people in these forums, that especially like the sound of Shukar ouds?
| Quote: | | Third, high quality oud can be built in a manner that it wouldn't change its action unless a decade has elapsed. |
Yes, but how many of us can afford such an expensive instrument?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
No, Chris, the Sukar long fingerboard has a small space at the junction. The motion of the neck when making adjustments is so small that it looks like
most fingerboards, no crevasse!
Oh and BTW, the long fingerbaords are rather loosely mounted in the soundboard. They are acoustically decoupled to a degree. You can see that in the
photo along with the adjustment butterfly-nut. The whole point is so you don't mute the soundboard as you play the high notes. The floating
fingerboard might be the next evolution.
Personally I don't like improvements that radically change the instrument, like saddles, floating bridge, machine-pegs(except those invisible
planetaries). We know by now that the floating bridge and the saddle DO change the timbre quite a bit.
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Alfaraby, can you please tell us how to do this "simple as inserting a coin" operation? If it is as simple as that, of course it might change my mind.
But I don't think I would prefer a high action to anything, an instrument with a high action is literally unplayable.
|
|
|
ameer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 464
Registered: 9-14-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the most important component part of action (in terms of comfort) is the nut height more than the
neck angle. Generally speaking the more dominant notes on an oud tend to be those closer to the nut and farther from the soundboard, making the impact
of the neck angle smaller than it otherwise would be. It's not like an electric guitar for example where it can be argued that the most dominant notes
are past the 12th fret if you're a lead player.
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
In my opinion both are important, because I myself play along the whole fingerboard, not only near the nut.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Ameer, you are right but I wish it were enough. The nut height is easy to adjust if hide glue was used. But even for playing around
"fret 7", not to speak of higher up, the bridge-side action matters to me.
AND there is another aspect: timbre. High strings make a different, shorter, more percussive sound, more like a nylon guitar. To get
the best sustain and "sizzle", I need a low action and a very flat fingerboard with a hard surface. So to adjust the neck is also a way to control
the tone!
Help, Alfaraby! I have an oud that I still can't decide what to do with: to glue on a higher fingerboard and nut, drill lower holes
in the bridge or unglue the ring at the neck-body joint and see what hides beneath, if you are right maybe I can easily adjust the angle, and reject
my heresy! Of course I would prefer 100% wood.
I am not one to reinvent the traditional oud, but I feel that a couple of metal parts buried in the neck don't bother me too much if it helps
the player control important areas that otherwise cannot be changed. And it's not like we are playing Stradivari ouds made 400 years ago, and
I worry the 2 nails will rust at year 357. We say "this oud plays very well" and "this one does not", but Sukar owners know they have more options.
|
|
|
Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
|
|
Old Lutes generally had their neck attached with a (metal) screw. It should make no difference to the tone, in fact the neck should ideally be inert
anyway, from an acoustics point of view, the bolt may even help, as the more solid the neck is the less chance of it robbing string energy from the
soundboard.
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Interesting on old lutes. Does the bolt provide some "adjustment"?
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear on timbre. What seems to happen is that the angle at which the string is fingered against the fingerboard
determines part of something we might call the "fingerboard timbre". The hardness of the fingerboard contributes another element. The nature of the
strings also, like the way the texture or windings vibrate against the fingerboard.
If we take an old fashioned string bass fingered (pizzicato) at one extreme, with a short plunk sound, and the innovative sound of Jaco Pastorius'
electric jazz bass at the other, we have a demonstration of "fretless timbre", where many listeners mistook his bass for a wind instrument. The rich
harmonics and the very long sustain on his bass was due to the very low angle that the strings were fingered at, i.e. low action, the hard and smooth
epoxy-coated neck, and the round-wound strings. The so-called "mwah" of the fretless bass, that thick timbre evolving as a note develops, is a wave
that travels up and down the string causing the windings to contact the (close) fingerboard at different places. It's on the verge of "buzzing",
"sizzle" is what one luthier called it. Good ouds have the same evolving rich timbre, in addition to the core tone of the bowl/soundboard, if the
action is low and the fingerboard is level, hard and smooth. If these elements are missing, the timbre is vastly impoverished. The ability to adjust
the "action" thus controls part of the timbre.
|
|
|
Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
|
|
Sorry, no mention of bolts, adjustable or otherwise.
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
OK, screw, sorry. Can the screw tightness ever affect the neck angle?
|
|
|
Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
|
|
Not sure, but I don't think so.
John, jdowning, is our resident Lute expert, I'm sure he would know.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
