fernandraynaud
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What's with the tiny violin pegs?
Sorry if this has been asked before but I don't see it. I got some viola pegs from Dov Schmidt. They are 76mm long. The tapered part is 50mm the
diameter drops from 10mm to 8mm. They will need a fair amount of shaving but will work on an oud with fat holes.
Another oud in need has skinny holes so I ordered violin pegs. They are 69mm, the tapered part Is 44mm the diameter drops from 8.5mm to 7mm. The
problem I'd say is that there's no way these violin pegs can be used on an oud with pegbox outside width 38mm on the first peg because it looks WRONG
even if I don't have to shorten the first peg, aren't oud pegs supposed to protrude more than just tha heeaad stikin' out?
And as I look at other ouds, the pegbox is always 32 to 40 mm wide at the first peg, so violin pegs look like too short pants with a smoking jacket. I
can imagine using viola pegs or using a mix, but not all violin pegs!
Is anybody using violin pegs ? What am I missing?
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sabbassi
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Hi Fernandraynaud.
I have seen and used violin pegs myself, there is nothing wrong with it. because they are smaller in size they give that nice look with the
pegbox.
at the other end, VIOLA pegs are of course biger but most important (heavier) and this is very important in turning the oud. that make the tuning
easiers and well balanced for the oud dimension and characteristics.
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fernandraynaud
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If the pegbox is wide only the head of a violin peg sticks out. It looks very strange to me. Maybe I'll get used to it. But since you say viola pegs
are better, I may exchange them.
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Jonathan
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To me, the narrower the shank, the easier it is to tune the instrument. Of course, the head of the peg has to stick out enough so that my fingers can
easily grab onto it.
However, I would take small holes/narrower pegs over fatter pegs any day of the week.
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Luttgutt
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Why not get the viola pegs and shave them down til they are are thin as the violin pegs (or as thin as desiered)?
Or is there something I am missunderstanding??
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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Jonathan
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No problem with that. It really does make it easier to turn the peg head when it sticks out from the peg box a bit.
I think a lot of makers, though, buy pegs and then ream the peg box hole to fit the peg, and not the other way around. Of course, shaving down the
peg works, too.
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fernandraynaud
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The problem is if you have to work with existing holes. You lightly touch them up, more burnishing than reaming, and let's say you end up with 7.3 mm
outer small hole diameter. And say your violin pegs are 7.1 mm smallest diameter. You have no choice but to push the peg in a bit and trim it off. If
the pegbox is 38mm and the tapered shaft 44mm you see there's not a lot of room before you have to put bushings on and start over. Even if you manage
to find the 2 fattest pegs to handle the first holes at 38 and 37 mm, it's close, and the heads sure don't stick out far!
So using viola pegs seems like a smarter move, let's just not whine about the blisters on our hands or having to resharpen or replace ($15) that
shaver blade. Of course we won't buy blades when all we need is a genuine Arkansas Oil Stone in a fine wooden storage case ($68) and some Grade A
Natural Honing Oil ($10) because you can't stoop to (I swear I quote from a catalog entry) "an entry level sharpening system". If you've seen Mohamed
Fadel make a primo oud using the whack-a-mole technique with $5 worth of garden-shed tools, you might conclude we here insane!
But then again, I've always wanted the little dremel drill press and all the nifty specialized bits and tools that can be fully amortized over, say,
three ouds. I was just telling my wife that nothing feels as good as lowering that little lever and drilling a hole, though reaming comes pretty
close, so much so that I have to be very careful and not over-ream!
The wusses who buy $2500 ouds that only need to be worshipped can have them. It ain't natural! There's got to be SOME contribution and a touch 'o
sufferin' if this oud's going to speak your soul!
I'll tell ya, every oud sounds different, and I remain to be convinced that anyone here can reliably assign a timbre to a price tag.
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paulO
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Hi fernandraynaud,
Nice rant; what brought that on ? Just wondering.
Cordially..PaulO
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Probably this:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10098
You might detect a microeconomics theme. But who needs a reason? It's a bit like music, raving that is, starts on a theme or two and pretty soon the
men in white coats come in, singing The Ballad of Charles Whitman (by Kinky Friedman).
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paulO
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Thanks.
Regards..PaulO
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carpenter
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It's good to have something like 1/2" between the pegbox side and the collar on the peg. For the width of an oud pegbox, viola pegs and shaving is
the way to go; violin pegs are slightly cuter in proportion, but too short in the shaft. Or you could always turn your own and get what you want
right off the bat.
A smaller diameter peg will wind a little less string per turn than a larger diameter, pretty much a Good Thing tuning-wise.
I think it's a better deal to replace pegs, if and when there's wear over time, than bush the pegholes. If you start out too big with the pegs,
there's no cushion, as with reaming the pegholes to fit the pegs. Sheesh - what a bad idea.
I've bushed plenty of violin pegholes for just that reason. It's a major pain, but go right ahead.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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I'm not sure how people manage with violin pegs, as they are short. Carpenter, I agree with you. Near the nut, with the pegbox at its widest,
it doesn't look good to have those heads so close to the pegbox wall. It looks like missionaries in quicksand.
Lute and Oud pegs tend to have a steeper taper than violins and violas. It's "appropriate technology". Like other lower cost ouds, the Sukar Model 1's
olivewood pegs use a taper around 15:1. Sukar's ebony pegs, on his high-end ouds, are 30:1, and look like modern pegs, longer than violin pegs,
thinner than off the shelf viola pegs. They probably come from Turkey, where oud pegs grow on trees and are traded for produce. Edward Powell
is revered there as "the man with SO MANY PEGS". 
Anyway, in (theoretical) oud-making, there are two distinct approaches to pegs. The first approach, in which the village idiot is handed blunt garden
tools, the proverbial square pegs, and told to "go make some holes for them", seems like a good way to waste some wood, until you realize that it's a
compassionate "public works" program that's designed to fill the world with 100 quid ouds. The second, in which the village idiot is handed some heavy
bags full of sticky brown cakes, pointed north and told to "walk until the people speak Turkish and trade the bags for Oud Pegs and Tools, then come
home", has more complex objectives. Suffice it to say that method 2 involves shavers, reamers and other "dual use" goods that are sometimes difficult
to obtain without some enterprising barter. Ouds made in connection with method 2 are easier to tune.
Tip: One thing I've found is that if you have a 30:1 (meaning ~ 25 to 30) reamer and adjustable shaver, there are other options. Rather than buy all
new pegs and take a "tabula rasa" approach, you resign yourself to the notion that "if all else fails", you can always do that, so "who cares?". It
takes that kind of attitude. You start gingerly burnishing and reaming (the holes) and shaving (the pegs), until you reach a compromise taper, not
15:1, not 30:1. This is where the yin and the yang equilibrate with your patience and your wallet, and the old pegs work "pretty good" 
The important thing is to gently use the reamer, mostly in burnish mode, i.e. turn it counter-clockwise. It is a sharp and aggressive device. If you
start out vigorously cranking the reamer, you will surely understand why the village idiot is never handed one, and you may remember the dreaded words
of (I think) JDowning, something like "making a new pegbox is easier".
The available 12th pegs from a working oud are of course not as long as the virgin Viola and Violin pegs.
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