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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
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Just hypothetically, if one was to buy two sets of these Thomastik sets (which at $55.90 are a little out of my reach) then going off of this table http://www.juststrings.com/toi-kr116.html could someone figure out the tension which that would yield on my Oud? I am a poor mathematician. The
idea is really interesting to use flat wound strings on an Oud especially that they are nylon/nylon.
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Microber
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It seems that the Thomastik KR116 are cheaper in Europe.
Available here for €18,40 [$22.70].
http://www.thomann.de/be/thomastik_kr116.htm
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ameer
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Thanks for the kind words Brian. For reference, the third I was using was only .036" in diameter, so .038" or .040", which are more standard gauges,
should feel a bit better.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Here are the tensions I get (an hour later) for the doubled up Thomastik KR116 set on an oud:
600 mm scale tuned cc gg dd AA FF C
3.99, 3.55, 3.05, 3.1, 3.55, 3.55 Kg
615 mm scale tuned cc gg dd AA FF C
4.19, 3.74, 3.21, 3.25, 3.73, 3.73 Kg
585 mm scale tuned dd aa ee BB F#F# C#
4.78, 4.58, 3.66, 3.71, 3.79, 3.79
These are acceptable I think, though better for an Arabic oud.
The interesting rule of thumb, that I mentioned before, is that Spanish guitar tensions are about double the oud's. Steel string "acoustic" or
"western" guitar tensions are about double again.
If you take a classical guitar set's tensions as published for standard scale and guitar tuning, and divide by about 1.8, you get around the resulting
tensions on an Arabic oud tuned cc gg dd AA FF C.
Divide by around 1.5 and get the tensions on a Turkish oud tuned dd aa ee BB F#F# C#. So generally 2 light tension Spanish guitar string sets do make
a passable oud set.
Looking at D'addario's Normal Tension "Classic set" tensions, their thin plain nylons are less dense than the norm, and so even their 0.028" high E
string (that I was worried about) should work fine as a c oud course, at 3.6Kg. The second B string gives 2.9 Kg on the gg course.
Their third course G 0.040" plain nylon is actually a little light as a plain dd oud course at 2.6Kg. The Thomastik TOI-KN15
http://www.juststrings.com/toi-kn25.html
in the KR116 set likely makes a better plain DD at 3.09Kg.
On a guitar, the KR116 set sounds brighter and richer than typical nylon, with lovely sustain. I can promise you a unique sounding oud. The only
reason I haven't tried it yet is the price. But, hey, some people spend that much on oud sets all the time.
As to whether nylon/nylon will hold up to a risha, with a little restraint I think so, these strings are tough. The flat-wound basses don't
finger-squeak. And no "clicking" on the nut when tuning! Their tuning stability is amazing. I couldn't believe that when I strung and tuned the
guitar, they were still in tune the next day. An amazing set, all around.
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
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Thanks for that fernandreynaud. I am a little hesitant to put them on at that tension as I usually opt for lower tension strings, I admit it is mostly
due to paranoia that I will go to take my Barbat out of its case and find that the whole thing is smashed. 
It seems to work out over all strings at about 3.5kg which is less than the Pyramid Orange, so I suppose it would be fine. As for holding up against a
risha, we will have to wait and see.
But supposing I tuned down a half step or a whole step what would the tensions be then? I really appreciate your help on this as I am not by any
stretch a maths mind.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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You have to work with the scale length you have, and which I don't know. Assuming it's 600mm, the highest tension strings being the cc course at 3.99
Kg, if you tune it down to B will be 3.55 Kg, and tuned Bb will be 3.17Kg. The others should go down by a similar ratio. So you could always start out
tuning it a whole tone low and see how it feels.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Oh, I understand your concern. But isn't it the total tension that matters most, and as you say 3.5 Kg average is not unusual for an oud set. You
could always use a nylon or PVF pair on the cc course if you're worried. But I found that the 0.52mm PVF that sounds and plays best is pushing 4 kg
too, and I'm normally a low tension fan.
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
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Just picked up my Thomastik KR116's and am in the process of getting them on the Barbat. I will give an update about the sound in a week or so when I
have played them in a little. I would love to post a sound clip but I haven't a microphone, I will see if I can get hold of one.
Thanks for the help everyone.
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Bodhi
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Hi everyone,
Having had the KR116's on for a week now I will give my opinion on them.
They are a high class string with great sustain and a VERY bright tone, this is due to the steel rope used inside rather than nylon. They as stated
previously stay in tune from the moment they are put in place!!!
They are a really unique set of strings, of the highest quality.
However, I do not like them on my Barbat!
The timbre of the first 3 courses are too bright, pushing the sound towards that of a Tar! Ofcourse it is not exactly the same, retaining its
Oud-like-ness, but changing it enough that the intimacy of the oud is lost. I would say the low frequencies are almost altogether lost with a very
mid-range sound and at the touch of the risha a "jangy/scratchy" sound which is altogether out of character for Ouds. If you use your fingers it
transforms them to quite the opposite with a very warm rich tone still bright but not overbearing. As I played classical Guitar for many years before
adopting the Oud as my primary instrument this was not a problem for me, for others this may not be so easy (especialy for fast passages). They also
react well if you play like a Setar, using up and down strokes with the index finger but this is also a skill in itself ofcourse.
The bottom strings are very nice as they reduce the scratch of your fingers along the string and hold a note for about a 3rd longer than any other
string I have used (on any instrument). This is great for a taqsim, giving a very spacy feel. With these bottom courses it is nice to have a little
extra in the high registers of the harmonics.
All in all they are incredible strings but just not for me! Perhaps for others they would be perfect, who can know. It would be nice if someone else
tried them and also gave an opinion.
After seeing the quality of their strings I am tempted by their Oud string set! Although Brian Prunka has a low opinion of them, He did say that they
have been changed since he tried them. Has anyone else tried them recently?
I wish I could post a sound clip but as I have said, I have no Mic. so you just have to rely on my musical language or try them yourself.
Hope this is informative, and thanks once more to everyone for their input and especially to Fernandreynaud for his suggestion.
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
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OK, like I have said the bottom strings are really nice but the top strings are quite 'Raspy' on the attack. So I have been thinking to replace the
top 3 courses with nylon. Now my problem is matching the tensions! I have them tuned down a whole step to lower the tension generally so I would
ofcourse do this with the top 3.
So for the top 3 tensions like this at standard tuning: cc 3.99, gg 3.55, dd 3.05.
If anyone could tell me what gauges I would be looking at it would help alot.
Thanks
Bodhi
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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Wow, that's great you tried it, great description, and of course too bad the trebles are not exactly what you were looking for. But aren't they the
most amazing bit of string technology? I would probably love them for playing with the fingers, or a very soft risha. Do you have any soft ones, like
those rishas of soft white gummy-bear-like WhateverItIs? You could try to cut one out of a margarine tub lid or find something thicker. Worth a try.
On the top courses, I would think nylon would be too much of a "jump" in timbre. If you want I can send you some PVF strings to try for the top two
courses.
What's your scale length? Assuming 600mm, for equivalent tension nylons you'd want 0.027", 0.035" and 0.043". But I think a 0.020" dual layer PVF
would be OK for the cc and a 0.024" for the gg, which is what I use for standard tuning. I don't have a good one for the DD, but maybe with a softer
risha you can leave the Thomastiks on for that one?
Also since it was the top courses that had the highest tension, if you swap those, you might be able to pull the instrument up to standard pitch.
Write me an e-mail with your postal address if you want to try the PVFs. And meanwhile do try a margarine tub risha ;-)
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 168
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Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  | | Wow, that's great you tried it, great description, and of course too bad the trebles are not exactly what you were looking for. But aren't they the
most amazing bit of string technology? I would probably love them for playing with the fingers, or a very soft risha. Do you have any soft ones, like
those rishas of soft white gummy-bear-like WhateverItIs? You could try to cut one out of a margarine tub lid or find something thicker. Worth a try.
|
Yes they are probably the highest quality strings I have ever seen! It is like they are from another more highly advanced world, perhaps they really
are made by aliens! I think that Austrians are a pretty odd bunch so we might be on to something here. I don't even have to mention the H word. )
As soon as i started to play them, I mean the first pleeeeeung, I could just hear this scratchy, rasping sound and thats all I ve heard for about 3
weeks My wife at first was really impressed and liked the clarity, the
sustain and the width of sound but after a week or so she also started to hear nothing but Shcrrrrrrrape, Shcrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrape. It really is a shame.
I really don't want to change the bottom strings, such an incredible sound, but the top ones have to go!
I have a few of those gummy-bear-like whateveritis thingy-mi-bobs, I think everyone got ripped off on ebay for those, but they just don't help. The least raspy sound actually came from my thickest and
stiffest risha which is made of cherry wood (not bark), it is 1mm and not very flexible but doesn't get inbetween the nylon windings on the strings so
avoids the dreaded rasp, this is all fine apart from THE RISHA IS 1mm THICK AND STIFF LIKE STEEL!!!
I think the margarine tub risha would be too thin and get inbetween the windings thus causing more dreaded rasp. However I will give it a try (when I
run out of margarine ofcourse).
| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | On the top courses, I would think nylon would be too much of a "jump" in timbre. If you want I can send you some PVF strings to try for the top two
courses.
What's your scale length? Assuming 600mm, for equivalent tension nylons you'd want 0.027", 0.035" and 0.043". But I think a 0.020" dual layer PVF
would be OK for the cc and a 0.024" for the gg, which is what I use for standard tuning. I don't have a good one for the DD, but maybe with a softer
risha you can leave the Thomastiks on for that one?
Also since it was the top courses that had the highest tension, if you swap those, you might be able to pull the instrument up to standard pitch.
Write me an e-mail with your postal address if you want to try the PVFs. And meanwhile do try a margarine tub risha ;-) |
Yes my Barbats scale length is 600mm. I did decide on slightly lighter strings for the tops after using Artos thingy to try to match tensions and
gauges with the intention of lowering the average tension and thus feeling more comfortable to raise the tuning to standard.
Perhaps you are right, nylon may well be too different and I would really appreciate the PVF (I will send you an e-mail shortly) The worst rasp comes from the 1st course so it could sound nice just changing the
top two.
Ofcourse I will let you know how that works out after a week or so of playing with them.
Thanks
Bodhi
P.S. I may be borrowing a mic soon so I will try and get a recording with just the Thomastiks and then one with the PVF to give a comparison.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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I just put some KR116 on my Martin D-18. Very nice, but let me tell you the funny part, and a tip, especially as you have 12 strings: LABEL THE
STRINGS somehow. I couldn't figure out which is the 2nd and which is the 3rd string. The 4th was easier, because it's decidedly more shiny metallic
like the bottom 2, but even so I wasn't convinced, because the 2nd, the 3rd and the 4th all have the same gauge, around 0.024". I switched the 2nd and
3rd and only as I tried to tune up, realized this was all wrong from the tensions. Unbelievable. They are so totally martian. Anyway, i think you'll
be happy with PVF, you'll still have some nice brightness on the top. A lovely promo for the KR116 strings would be this one, you can really hear the
incredible sustain, especially on such a small guitar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FOcHnNFzbM
I didn't realize Dominic Miller co-wrote this.
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 168
Registered: 2-26-2012
Location: North West England
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You know what, I had the same problem!!! My wife and I spent hours looking at the strings and eventually figured out they were the right way round,
first of all it felt comfortable, second against a dark background we could see the minute difference. I think the winding is a little different
(thicker?) on the second.
thanks for the clip I really enjoyed it, plus it led me to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA2TbQrAHBY&feature=related
its a trad. Bosnian song in the Sevdah tradition, thats basically the muslim music in Bosnia. Once the court music and part of the Bosnian Makam
system which untill 100 years ago-ish was still part of peoples life. Now the Makams have been lost but the songs remain... and what beautiful songs
they are. Usually/traditionally a saz would be the only accompaniment but since the 50s/60s full orchestras have been used, I am not a fan of it
generally, but with the saz and this lute of Edin it is magical.
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
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I just did the maths on Artos website and a gg course with PVF at 0.024"/0.61mm equates to 2.95kg is that not a little light? I was going to go for
something at 3.4kg (nylon @ 0.79mm). I'm not trying to look a gift horse in the mouth but just seemed a big jump between the 1st and 2nd courses,
perhaps this is just because I am uneducated as far as string tensions go. It would make it lighter than my 3rd course. what do you think? Would that
be unusual?
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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The gg course is generally thought to sound better at a little lower tension, 2.95 isn't too low, IMO, but of course it depends on how it balances
with the rest of the set, and your personal tastes.
Usually I feel like 10-12% less than the average tension usually works well.
That said, the "same" tension sometimes still feels different with different materials; I recently tried a .66mm PVF string for gg, and thought it
felt floppy compared to a .76 rectified nylon, which should be a little less tension.
Oh, the mysteries of strings
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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Yes, mysteries. I still don't understand why a 0.018" PVF on 600mm cc sounds more metallic than a 0.020". Both are OK, but I prefer the timbre of the
0.020". And then again my 0.020" is a slightly different material, with a slightly lower tensile strength rating, AND every oud is different. The
variables are just too numerous. The KR116 set felt rather low tension on a Spanish guitar, and on a Martin with about the same scale they feel tight.
For me anything between 2.5 and 3.5 Kg on an oud can very unexpectedly feel right or wrong. With the dual layer PVF material I'm using, cc at 0.020"
and gg at 0.024" is my sweet spot on several ouds of scale 600mm tuned 440. Bright/rich enough to have no timbre shift from the wound DD, and mellow
enough to be lyrical.
The Thomastiks have a sound of their own that we may not want on every oud, but i'd think it's worth having those long sustaining basses on one. If
the scraping on the DD course is acceptable, so you don't have to swap it (and frankly I hadn't even though of that as a problem on the trebles), but
my guess is this will balance out to a very unusual but nice set.
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 168
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That sounds fine then. If it is generally a norm to drop tension on the gg and it works for Fernand then I'm satisfied.
The scraping would perhaps not be so evident on a different oud or perhaps someone else would not find it so disagreeable, but for my poor ears it
just isn't what I want.
I look forward to getting the PVF's.
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 168
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Today I ran out of margarine whilst buttering (is that correct "buttering with margerine"?) my bread! I thought to myself "I need more margarine" but
then it occurred to me that I need to throw away the old tub first. So, being the practical guy I am, I headed over to the bin with my empty margarine
tub only to be struck by a voice in my otherwise empty mind, the voice I had never heard before but it had a decidedly Californian tinge. I thought
"who's that in my head" but the voice continued talking saying repeatedly "And meanwhile do try a margarine tub risha". It went on for a good minute
or two whilst I stood, margarine tub in hand, bin in front of me. So anyway I turned around went to my kitchen draw, took out a pair of scissors and
cut myself a risha from the side of the tub, then getting all sort of giddy and excitable like a puppy I cut a second one from the top, as the
material seemed a little thicker/stiffer.
Anyway, I doesn't make a difference to the scratchy, scratch, scratch however it did increase the metalic sound somewhat giving the string a more
accentuated zzzzzing bringing the similarity to the tar even closer. I think if I raised the action and added some frets I would have a unique
sounding tar-like instrument.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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I won't ask what KIND of margarine. Save those rishas, in 20 years you won't be able to get such quality plastic. And now that you're good with the
scissors, it leaves a few other rubbish materials to try until PVF strings arrive. For instance, have you tried cat gut? I understand many Chinese
restaurants have an inexplicable supply of cat parts.
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 168
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Location: North West England
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Sunflower spread from the company Pure. The best I can find at the price range £1.50. I will enquire at the chinese restaurants about this "cat gut"
sounds interesting (and probably cheap). Regarding the plastic; perhaps we should all be stock piling cheap plastic tubs and the like for the foretold
"great quality plastic dearth of 2030"???
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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tip: at Chinese restaurant best not to ask for "cat parts", use euphemisms such as "swan". By 2030 I suspect all packaging will likely be a dirty
gray and easily cracked; primo vintage margarine tubs will be used to frame precious pictures, and as ceremonial coffins.
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 168
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Location: North West England
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Vintage margarine and euphemisms but I'm still struggling to find a place to fit George Michael in here, it should be easier!
I wanted to post some revised tensions for the Thomastik KR116's as the one's Fernand originally posted turned out a little off
At 600mm:
1st cc 4.11kg
2nd gg 3.66kg
3rd dd 3.55kg
4th aa 3.61kg
5th ff 3.66kg
6th c 3.66kg
This gives and average of 3.7kg which is equal to the pyramid orange set.
I did some research on the Thomastik website and it seems IMO the Classic N-series flatwound CF127 have more favourable tensions:
1st cc 3.83kg
2nd gg 3.05kg
3rd dd 3.11kg
4th aa 3.61kg
5th ff 3.55kg
6th c 3.55kg
which gives an average of 3.45kg. These strings differ from the KR116's as they are top 3 nylon and bottom 3 Chrome Steel on nylon. This gives the
desired Nylon 3rd and also flatwound mellowness/scratchless-ness. Even though I don't expect the wonders of the KR116's from this set this option
definately interests me (and I will try them after I have tried the PVF 1st and 2nd courses with the KR116's) as I have never had a problem with the
tone of nylon.
I am also interested in the Thomastik Oud strings as the 11 string set comes as standard with nylon 3rd, I have found a favourable opinion from
Ghassan Bashir on this forum here: http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=709#pid4752
If anyone knows a site in europe which sells these strings please let me know as I am struggling to find them.
Now back to my KR116's, I wanted to ask if I tuned the bottom C course up half a step to C#what tension would I get if it is 3.66kg at C on my 600mm I
am imagining something like 4.1kg if I am correct would this be unreasonable for the bottom string? If someone has a more accurate calculation then
that would be great.
Also just to clarify the Thomastik KR116's are (all flatwound) Bottom 3: steel-plated copper on STEEL rope core and top 3: nylon wound with STEEL rope
core. This I had originally thought was Nylon on Nylon before I purchased them, and I had commented on them in that respect a number of times so I
thought I better state that they are not.
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 168
Registered: 2-26-2012
Location: North West England
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Whilst I am waiting for the PVF strings from Fernand or waiting for Godot;-) I thought I'd give the Nylon option a try and ordered .56mm for cc and
.71mm for gg D'addario gauged singles, this gives a lower tension than the rest of the strings but actually I quite like the feel like that. Also the
sound going from the thomastik nylon wound steel rope dd is really quite effective. The timbre change is not as dramatic as I thought it would be and
I am quite enjoying playing without the zzzzzing.
Still looking forward to the PVF.
....
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 168
Registered: 2-26-2012
Location: North West England
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I wondered if anyone has ever tried these strings:
http://www.mid-east.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=RBSOUDA&eq=&Tp=
Roosebeck Arabian set. I have seen them available with an optional nylon 3rd although I cant find it on the site this time.
They are rectified nylon which is a good thing as it goes when talking about nylon 3rds.
BTW... where is Fernand? He hasn't been on for a long time...
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