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SamirCanada
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I think you needed more clamps and rubber tubing for gluing the strips. 
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Always test oil/varnish or any varnish on a scrap piece of wood to ensure that it will dry properly. Some of the exotic hardwoods (some rosewoods for
example) may contain natural oils that prevent drying. The maple veneer on the neck should not be a problem.
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
Posts: 78
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Location: Germany / Leipzig
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Mood: contented
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Wow faggiuols ! compliments on ur work so far !! very beautiful
I am using oil on my instruments too. Especially for the neck, I really like the visual and the "feeling" of it.
High gloss varnish is not really my taste, using superior german wood oil with it's easy application gives a very nice color and strength in the
grain.
You can have a look in my threads 
I even only wax my soundboards.
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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man_go
Oud Admirer
Posts: 1
Registered: 1-31-2016
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attached drawing
Quote: Originally posted by faggiuols  | I realized that I did not post my project.
I remedy immediately. of course the design is done by following the text of Hankey.
I precise that it seemed to me that the book has some inaccuracies mainly on the size and location of the bridge. I could be wrong view to have
understood my difficulties with English.
in any case there are small differences with respect to what is written by Hankey in my project.
the file is not easily readable.
if anyone is interested I can send it in a format heavier or even in dwg.
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Hello
This is my first contribution in this unique Forum
and i am Following-up your wonderful project and I wish you good luck up to the end.
Finally, if you don't mind can you send me the full copy of the attached drawing in post quoted above please?
thanks and keep on the good work.
EMAIL: abood11847@gmail.com
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faggiuols
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 9-10-2014
Location: cagliari sardegna italia
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | | Always test oil/varnish or any varnish on a scrap piece of wood to ensure that it will dry properly. Some of the exotic hardwoods (some rosewoods for
example) may contain natural oils that prevent drying. The maple veneer on the neck should not be a problem. |
thanks Mr. Jdowning
for valuable tips on painting the oud.
in truth, in my mind, I am very far from that point yet.
I know already what is sure, it is that I would like a flat paint and not semi-gloss or glossy. honestly I have not yet studied a lot about this, but
I think there will also beeswax!
I know that many luthiers mate tru oil to the beeswax, but I do not remember very well how and by what procedure..
Do you know any technique to get a result matte finish that highlights the wood?
Thanks for all
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faggiuols
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 9-10-2014
Location: cagliari sardegna italia
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| Quote: Originally posted by Hibari-San | Wow faggiuols ! compliments on ur work so far !! very beautiful
I am using oil on my instruments too. Especially for the neck, I really like the visual and the "feeling" of it.
High gloss varnish is not really my taste, using superior german wood oil with it's easy application gives a very nice color and strength in the
grain.
You can have a look in my threads
I even only wax my soundboards. |
Thanks Hibari-San
for your compliments.
Indeed, as I wrote above, I would like a matte finish. Any advice is accepted with great pleasure!
How does painting with beeswax?
I used it for a table, but never for musical instruments!
thank you
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faggiuols
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 9-10-2014
Location: cagliari sardegna italia
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thanks Samir
for your advice ..
I glued the veneer and I think came pretty well.
I also got a first cleaning the neck and it seems to me that it came good. I attach some pictures of the work. I would be happy if you tell me what
you think!
if I could do the job again, maybe I would do the slats of maple much tighter. seem disproportionate to the ribs of the bowl .. what do you think
too?
[file]38051[/file] [file]38053[/file]
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faggiuols
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 9-10-2014
Location: cagliari sardegna italia
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| Quote: Originally posted by man_go | | Quote: Originally posted by faggiuols | I realized that I did not post my project.
I remedy immediately. of course the design is done by following the text of Hankey.
I precise that it seemed to me that the book has some inaccuracies mainly on the size and location of the bridge. I could be wrong view to have
understood my difficulties with English.
in any case there are small differences with respect to what is written by Hankey in my project.
the file is not easily readable.
if anyone is interested I can send it in a format heavier or even in dwg.
|
Hello
This is my first contribution in this unique Forum
and i am Following-up your wonderful project and I wish you good luck up to the end.
Finally, if you don't mind can you send me the full copy of the attached drawing in post quoted above please?
thanks and keep on the good work.
EMAIL: abood11847@gmail.com |
hello mango
I sent you an email with the file in pdf.
Let me know if you can be interested to file autocad.
If you use this software is certainly better for you.
bye
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
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it came out looking excellent! I was just joking my friend. The amount of tubing on that thing it wasn't moving even if you had a tornado come through
your house.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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faggiuols
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 9-10-2014
Location: cagliari sardegna italia
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| Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada | | it came out looking excellent! I was just joking my friend. The amount of tubing on that thing it wasn't moving even if you had a tornado come through
your house. |
hello Samir
sorry ... but we Sardinian people we get two days to understand jokes!
(in fact your observation had seemed strange ..)
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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A beeswax finish if done properly over a smooth surface is a high gloss finish and not a very durable one at that as it is relatively soft and will
attract dirt over time on a neck. It will likely feel sticky to the touch on warm days.
A hand rubbed oil/varnish fiinish is hard and durable and and very easy to apply. Just wipe it on with a brush or cloth. Let it stand for about 15
minutes until fully absorbed into the wood, wipe off any varnish remaining on the surface and leave it to dry for a day. For a dull finish just dilute
the varnish a little with thinners.
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faggiuols
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 9-10-2014
Location: cagliari sardegna italia
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | A beeswax finish if done properly over a smooth surface is a high gloss finish and not a very durable one at that as it is relatively soft and will
attract dirt over time on a neck. It will likely feel sticky to the touch on warm days.
A hand rubbed oil/varnish fiinish is hard and durable and and very easy to apply. Just wipe it on with a brush or cloth. Let it stand for about 15
minutes until fully absorbed into the wood, wipe off any varnish remaining on the surface and leave it to dry for a day. For a dull finish just dilute
the varnish a little with thinners. |
Thanks Mr. Jdowning
your explanations are always very clear and useful.
Indeed I know that beeswax does not protect the oud.
But I would add that I wish that the soundboard and maple veneers of the neck, after painting, whiter possible, ie without color. So I want a paint
that does not color.
One of the options I was considering was also shellac extra-light.
You think Truo-oils can be painted with the result not to give color?
what kind of diluents should be used to make matte finish?
thanks a lot
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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The thinner for a TruOil type finishes is just a standard paint thinner.
I don't use it but I suspect that even bleached shellac has some slight colour? Note that shellac should be applied in many very thin layers rubbing
down each layer between coats to achieve a smooth blemish free surface - a surface that will not be completely dull (or could be very shiny if
skilfully applied as a 'French Polish'). If you really want a dull finish then any shiny surface can be made dull by lightly rubbing with very fine
steel wool (being careful not to cut through the finish to bare wood underneath).
However, in the case of the back of a neck, a dull surface will soon become polished and shiny over time due to movement of the thumb until the
varnished or shellac layer becomes worn through to the wood and will require repair. Refinishing is easily done with both shellac and an oil/varnish
finish.
I would not use a waxed finish on a sound board (although some luthiers do). On sound boards I usually use a very thin (diluted with alcohol so that
it is water thin) application of shellac that can be simply wiped on with a cloth pad (or no finish at all).
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faggiuols
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 9-10-2014
Location: cagliari sardegna italia
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shellac has light color color, although clear, but the real problem is that it is a gloss finish. But it protects well the oud.
Maybe I did not understand. you use shellac to the soundboard, but what do you use for the bowl and the neck? Sometimes you let the soundboard without
paint?
thank you
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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I use brushed on varnish for bowl and neck or wiped on TruOil type finishes. Note that all varnishes are clear or transparent and - those made from
natural materials - usually have some degree of natural colour tint. They can also be tinted to be more heavily coloured yet are still transparent
when applied.
Paint is opaque and coloured - OK for preserving the woodwork of a house for example but not generally used for instrument making.
In the Turkish oud making tradition the sound board is left unfinished as any oil, varnish or wax on the surface is considered to adversely affect the
sound of an instrument. I use a very dilute coating of shellac wiped onto a sound board with a pad to protect the surface from dirt over time.
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faggiuols
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 9-10-2014
Location: cagliari sardegna italia
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thank you!
very clear.
I do not really like using different types of varnish for soundboard and bowl .. maybe I take the idea of shellac again, even very diluted, throughout
the oud.
thanks as always.
P.S .: I am sorry, but this time Renata Fusco did not respond to my message. I tried yesterday to send a message again, if she were to answer me I
will tell you immediately.
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
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Mood: Cool
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I'm tuned, yet have little to contribute to your great project dear friend.
excuse my intrudance, but the dimensions of the neck should be very close to:
width: 37-8/55 mm;
Thickness: 20/22-3 mm.
It's very important to keep this cone/taper of the neck, in order to ensure smooth playing.
Good luck
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Mood: No Mood
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Shellac on the bowl is always a good choice as an alternative to a varnish. You will be fine using just shellac. It is best to make up your own fresh
shellac solution from dry shellac flakes dissolved in alcohol. Once made into a solution its shelf life is limited (about 6 months or so) and old
shellac solution will not dry properly. Shellac flakes have an infinite shelf life if stored properly. If a shellac solution is purchased from a store
ready made there is no guarantee that it will always be fresh so always check the date on the can.
Shellac is a fast drying finish so should be made dilute to facilitate even application without streaks etc. The very thin shellac solution means that
you will have to apply several coats (using a cloth pad wiping in the wood grain direction) with very light sanding between each coat - to build up a
thick enough finished coat. About 4 or 5 coats should be enough.
How thin is thin? Well if you purchase a ready mixed can of commercial shellac, dilute one third of it with 2/3 by volume of alcohol. Shake and leave
the mixture to stand for a day or two and then decant the clear liquid from any residue that has settled out. Then dilute the clear liquid further
with an equal volume of alcohol, That thin - almost like pure clear alcohol!! The finish applied this way will not be glossy - unless you polish it -
but will have a smooth fine lustre.
In fact I would apply shellac as a sealer coat on rosewood before applying varnish. This is because some rosewood species contain natural oils that
may prevent varnish drying properly - shellac is not affected by the oils so acts as a barrier between the wood and varnish overcoat. Brazilian
rosewood is particularly troublesome in this respect and requires wiping with a degreasing agent before applying any finish.
Thanks for trying to contact Renata on my behalf. She likely has about the same grasp of English as I currently have of Italian so has concluded that
communication would not be practical. Not to worry as she has already been very helpful in enabling you to track down a copy of the out of print
CD/magazine complete with the lyrics of the Neapolitan songs. No need to bug her any further.
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faggiuols
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 9-10-2014
Location: cagliari sardegna italia
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby | I'm tuned, yet have little to contribute to your great project dear friend.
excuse my intrudance, but the dimensions of the neck should be very close to:
width: 37-8/55 mm;
Thickness: 20/22-3 mm.
It's very important to keep this cone/taper of the neck, in order to ensure smooth playing.
Good luck
Yours indeed
Alfaraby |
dear friend Alfaraby
thanks for your commitment to follow my long process of building oud.
about measures of the neck, I used the measurements of the book by Hankey and, although I have not had the opportunity these days to precisely
control, I think they are like you say. If I remember correctly:
width 38 mm - 54 mm
Height 19 mm, but without the thickness of the keyboard with which grow to about 21 mm.
Then I will write in the coming days the exact measurements ..!
thanks and continues to follow me !!
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faggiuols
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 9-10-2014
Location: cagliari sardegna italia
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | Shellac on the bowl is always a good choice as an alternative to a varnish. You will be fine using just shellac. It is best to make up your own fresh
shellac solution from dry shellac flakes dissolved in alcohol. Once made into a solution its shelf life is limited (about 6 months or so) and old
shellac solution will not dry properly. Shellac flakes have an infinite shelf life if stored properly. If a shellac solution is purchased from a store
ready made there is no guarantee that it will always be fresh so always check the date on the can.
Shellac is a fast drying finish so should be made dilute to facilitate even application without streaks etc. The very thin shellac solution means that
you will have to apply several coats (using a cloth pad wiping in the wood grain direction) with very light sanding between each coat - to build up a
thick enough finished coat. About 4 or 5 coats should be enough.
How thin is thin? Well if you purchase a ready mixed can of commercial shellac, dilute one third of it with 2/3 by volume of alcohol. Shake and leave
the mixture to stand for a day or two and then decant the clear liquid from any residue that has settled out. Then dilute the clear liquid further
with an equal volume of alcohol, That thin - almost like pure clear alcohol!! The finish applied this way will not be glossy - unless you polish it -
but will have a smooth fine lustre.
In fact I would apply shellac as a sealer coat on rosewood before applying varnish. This is because some rosewood species contain natural oils that
may prevent varnish drying properly - shellac is not affected by the oils so acts as a barrier between the wood and varnish overcoat. Brazilian
rosewood is particularly troublesome in this respect and requires wiping with a degreasing agent before applying any finish.
Thanks for trying to contact Renata on my behalf. She likely has about the same grasp of English as I currently have of Italian so has concluded that
communication would not be practical. Not to worry as she has already been very helpful in enabling you to track down a copy of the out of print
CD/magazine complete with the lyrics of the Neapolitan songs. No need to bug her any further. |
Dear Mr Jdowning
thanks for your luthiery lessons .
I am happy to follow your precious tips ..
Yesterday I ordered on the internet a little bottle of tru oil to make the first varnishing tests.
Now I would order the clear shellac to make some tests with shellac too.
thanks to you and also to all the other members of the forum for the help that you give me. Without you I would never have managed to get this far!
I also got the idea to put all your writing on this forum and make a book to be kept in my lab, in your posts is all the art of violin making.
It would take a long time but I'm sure it would come out a great book! (It's just an idea that definitely includes your consent!).
Maybe all the members of the forum could help to achieve a great open source book!
they are only ideas !! I think it would be a wonderful job!
Thanks and to the next episode!
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faggiuols
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 9-10-2014
Location: cagliari sardegna italia
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Dear friends
here is a new update on my work.
I cut the neck to insert the pegbox.
I attach some pictures of the work.
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faggiuols
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 9-10-2014
Location: cagliari sardegna italia
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hi to all forum members.
I'm doing the pegbox. I attach some pictures.
I wonder if the size and angle of the pegbox are standard, or whether each luthier face as he prefers.
I like the oud, when it is backed with the soundboard upwards, is in orizzontal position, then the length of the pegbox must be aligned with the bowl,
ie the keyboard is horizontal.
I hope to have expressed well.
if someone wants to say their idea I I'll be happy.
thank you all.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: better than before
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| Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada | If you want perfect symmetric grain as you say you can't have an uneven number of ribs, and the apex should be a joint not a rib. I don't think its a
big deal once it's done because it will be hard to see an issue with symmetry even if you use the uneven number of ribs. Now for the famous makers
research Nahat, Manol, karibyan, you will get ideas of bracing. There are no reliable books or resources other than the net, Oud makers are a
secretive bunch  |
I don't understand this comment. I have never seen an oud with the joint at the apex, every one has been odd numbers of ribs. A joint at the apex
makes the back weak and susceptible to cracking open more than having a rib there. As for grain symmetry - if you mean book matching, it's a choice
between matching each pair of ribs or over the whole back. It can be done if you have enough wood in the original billet and select the pairs
accordingly.
As for researching for bracing, good luck. I learned about bracing by dismantling ouds over many years and what I found was there are many ways to
brace the face, and many work. The bracing in my book is based on a Hanna Nahhat model 1910. Hanna's ouds are unsurpassed in tone and overall sound
for Arabic style. Follow Manol certainly if you want the Turkish sound. Karibyan follows the Manol design as do all Turkish makers.As for books -
besides mine, there are books in Turkish and apprentice programs there and in Iran, if you care to travel. The Arabic makers not so much, they don't
seem to share knowledge, a pity as so much has been lost as a result.
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faggiuols
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 9-10-2014
Location: cagliari sardegna italia
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Thanks Dr Oud for your comment.
in truth this was an old post, response to my request for help about the intention to make symmetrical the grain of the wooden bowl. this is
impossible with an odd number of ribs.
I did book matching with ribs, but one rib is alone.
about bracing, which bracing is what makes it the hottest oud sound and sweet? which of those you have mentioned? I am totally ignorant on the subject
..
I imagine that there is not an answer, but if there is an answer you'll be very grateful if you give it to me ...
thanks dr. Oud!
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: better than before
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The Arabic ouds are known for deep bass and edgy or raspy tone. Turkish ouds are smoother, more mellow with bright trebles.
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